Session 4.15 - Creative Content Part 2

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Thats because Girion is a Sindarin or Nandorin name... but sure, the Dunedain adapted Quenya and Sindarin , and maybe in that period or time the Wood-elves were as much teachers and influence for the Lakemen's and Damenen's forefathers as the Eldar had been for the Edain... so they might have adapted some of their names. So yes, we could think of Sindarin or Nandorin names for her as well...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Having now heard Corey Olsen's Mythmoot talk on Eminem (available on Mootcast!), I think it is safe to say that what he's interested in there is the clever play with sounds of words - rhymes, assonance, and evolving sounds throughout a stanza of music.
He played segments of 'Brainless,' 'Lose Yourself,' and 'Venom' (clean version) and analyzed the sounds of the poetry and the beats of the music and how they worked together and evolved throughout the pieces. He was very impressed by the skill with words demonstrated in Eminem's corpus.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Having now heard Corey Olsen's Mythmoot talk on Eminem (available on Mootcast!), I think it is safe to say that what he's interested in there is the clever play with sounds of words - rhymes, assonance, and evolving sounds throughout a stanza of music.
He played segments of 'Brainless,' 'Lose Yourself,' and 'Venom' (clean version) and analyzed the sounds of the poetry and the beats of the music and how they worked together and evolved throughout the pieces. He was very impressed by the skill with words demonstrated in Eminem's corpus.
So that’s why he wanted to have some rap?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well FIND a linguist rap genious who is able to rap in elvish and who actually is able to do it with a melodic voice - and frankly Eminem DOES not have a melodic voice, he can do rhythmical applied poetry very well but he cannot sing!

We know how elves did rhyme and poetry... because... well jrrt DEFINED how it works in the world HE made up. Personally i do not see any possibility how these could work in a rap context.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I think I do understand the idea. The problem is, while I can really appreciate rap, it comes with a set of attributes and is sprung from a cultural context that is quite different from the elvish. For instance, rap battles tend to have an emotional emphasis of aggression, which to me goes against the elven love of speech and language themes.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I COULD imagine some of Finrods battle-spells to be more in an agressively spoken manner, but rap in the close sense?
i fear jrrt would count that to the culture of Mordor...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, much of the context of rap is insults and aggression and celebrating things that most people would view as either stupid or wrong, even evil.


IF you were going to translate the wordplay of rap into the poetry of the Vanyar, you would have to do it in a way that celebrates beauty, truth, and goodness.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, of course, I understand fully! Much easier to associate the 'grittiness' and 'tawdriness' of rap music with orcs rather than elves!

A song like 'Lose Yourself' is about Rap Battles, but is not itself an example of one. It's a narrative (poem?) of sorts. So, it's already one step away from that context. Likewise, 'Venom' isn't a rap battle, either.

They still are both songs that need language warnings, though. And they do call out/make references to other people in them. I can't picture elves 'cursing' in the sense of using foul language that would be bleeped out. Curse someone? Sure. But, you know...articulately. And if all you're going to translate from that to elven poetry is the 'hum' of the m's in 'venom'....it's not going to be rap any more.

I also see most elvish art coming from a place of taking delight in a thing, rather than being an expression of anger or pain. Maglor did write the Noldolante, and a Vanya did write the Lament for the Two Trees, though. And there is the lament for Gandalf in Lothlorien once they hear news of his death. So, it's not like they can't or won't create art out of pain. It's just...not the default.

Another way of looking at this is that most Bluegrass songs are about something sad and terrible, but they don't sound all that sad. The singer might be upset that his wife left him, but the music accompanying the song is fast and even somewhat cheery. It's a 'high lonesome' sound, but not...sad. Or depressed. More just...wistful.

A 'happy' bluegrass song: Cripple Creek
A 'sad' bluegrass song: Wildwood Flower

There's a clear difference - the latter song is slower and more twangy, whereas the first one is just fun. But I don't think the second one is even in a minor key! And yet the content of the lyrics means that Fantine from Les Mis could sing this song, so....


So...if I wanted to look for a bluegrass singer who was a clever rap lyricist....uh....I think I'd go for Mumford and Sons. Maybe?
'Broken Crown' has the anger and (a taste of) the cursing of rap music. The instruments are Bluegrass. No one's going to call that rap, though. Trampled by Turtles has the speed, though I can't think of an example from their work that I'd consider lyrically clever or playing with the sounds of words in an interesting way. 'Wait So Long' has 'itty bit grit of sand' and 'frozen freight train'...so maybe? And 'Codeine' is a song about drugs as well as a rip-off of 'Jolene,' with 'finally found a friend' and 'words of wisdom' (plenty of folk songs about alcohol and smoking, but fewer about other drugs). And for my third choice on the list of 'modern bluegrass musicians whose work embodies some aspect of rap music,' I'm left with the Infamous Stringdusters. 'Rise Sun' has a beat (clapping for the first/last part).

So, yeah, none of these. Rapid-fire Anglo-Saxon poetry to a folk melody is probably what we're actually looking for here.....with a really dense repetition of the sounds in the rhyme scheme/alliteration/assonance. Not to brag or anything (but I'm totally bragging here), my Quenya translation of the Oath of Fëanor that I gave to Phillip has two lines that are pretty much all alliterative 'h' :p

Ye nurta hya harya haura hya mapa nondasse​
Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë​

So we can just tell Corey Olsen that that was our attempt to incorporate his request for rap into the project and call it a day :p :p :p
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
That bluegrass stuff reminds me of tolkiens troll song, probably because its, technically, folk...




This is technically still rap, but it does not have that play on words like EMINEM or lot of the battlerap stuff...

 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
It's not technically rap, but "We Didn't Start the Fire" is kind of a spoken-word song with a lot of complex rhyme and alliteration.

Also, I wrote a parody of it a while ago called "We Set the Ships of Fire." You have to pronounce some things kind of weird or faster or slower to make it fit with the actual song. If anyone has any suggestions for different or better lyrics, I would love to hear them.

“We Set the Ships on Fire”
aka “Noldolantë”
by Maglor​

Cuiviénen, Oromë, Dark Rider, stay away,
Sending Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë off to Valinor.

Noldor, Vanyar, and Teleri finally reach the shores of Faery.
Isle of Balar, meet the Valar, birth of Fëanor.

Seven sons, Silmarils, half-brother, threat to kill
Melkor, no more trees, Fëanor don’t do this please.

Tirion in torchlight, oath of vengeance in the night,
Alqualondë, Kinslaying, Doom of Mandos, treachery.

We set the ships on fire,
And keep on betraying,
And keep on kinslaying,
We set the ships on fire.
After Alqualondë
It’s the Noldolantë.

Helcaraxë, Lake Mithrim, Angband and Thangorodrim,
Fëanor’s slain, Maedhros in chains, nuin-Giliath.

Turgon, Sirion, Gondolin's like Tirion,
Nargothrond’s caves, halls of Doriath.

Eöl, Celeborn, Finrod found the Secondborn,
Noldor in Beleriand, Thingol says that Quenya’s banned.

Siege breaks, Sudden Flame, Fingolfin did exclaim,
“Lord Bauglir, full of fear, come and fight,” and Morgoth came.

We set the ships on fire,
And keep on betraying,
And keep on kinslaying,
We set the ships on fire.
After Alqualondë
It’s the Noldolantë.

Huan, helpful king, Lúthien can really sing.
Nirnaeth Arnoediad, things are getting really bad.

Beleg’s dead, Mormegil, Morgoth’s curse is evil,
King’s daughter, stones of pride, Dragon, incest, suicide

Secret message, Tuor, sea longing, Vinyamar,
Voronwë, Ulmo, Turgon is a no-go.

Mîm’s curse, Nauglamír, We’re still oath-bound, Caranthir,
Celegorm, and Curufin, kinslaying once again.

We set the ships on fire,
And keep on betraying,
And keep on kinslaying,
We set the ships on fire.
After Alqualondë
It’s the Noldolantë.

Glorfindel, Balrog, Ecthelion, Gothmog,
Dragons, Maeglin caused the Fall of Gondolin.

Eärendil, brightest star, seeks the help of the Valar.
Once more slaying kin at the Mouths of Sirion.

Elrond and Elros, last argument with Maedhros,
Light of tree, burning me; Now I’m wandering by the sea.

We set the ships on fire,
And keep on betraying,
And keep on kinslaying,
We set the ships on fire.
After Alqualondë
It’s the Noldolantë.

Númenor, fall of Men, Dark Lord Sauron back again,
Three Rings, elf kings, Annatar gifts brings.

Gondor, Mordor, Gil-galad, Last Alliance, Dagorlad,
Homely House in Rivendell, Lórien, Galadriel.

Blue Istari, Curunír, Radagast, and Mithrandir,
Erebor, Dol Guldur, Mount Doom, Barad-dûr.

Durin’s Bane in Moria, Círdan guards the Western shore,
One Ring to rule them all, how much further can we fall?

We set the ships on fire,
And keep on betraying,
And keep on kinslaying,
We set the ships on fire.
Can we reconcile?
To end this exile, exile, exile, exile …?

We set the ships on fire,
And keep on betraying,
And keep on kinslaying,
We set the ships on fire.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I mean, Christian rap exists...



Fr. Stan Fortuna, CFR is a Franciscan Friar of the Renewal in the Bronx. So, uh...that's the context on this.

Don't know the story behind Move Merchants, but, well...here you are....

And Nico Santana's "Legacy" - he says it's based on the story of the prodigal son.


These all definitely keep the themes, styles, and topics associated with rap music, but with maybe more Bible quotes and a message with a different point...


I think we can agree that simply making the elves music have a more elf-like content wouldn't make a rap song sound or feel more elvish. The goal is to extract the 'clever word play' idea and work it into something more appropriately elvish.
 
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