Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

If we have Sauron kill Edhellos (which allows for a scene that is the culmination of the Sauron-Edhellos-Angrod plotline and will still have multiple payoffs at the end of the Second Age), we can simply have the Balrogs elsewhere on the battlefield, killing people other than Angrod.

If we have Gothmog kill Edhellos (which will not be nearly as exciting), Angrod could be wounded or simply unable to reach Gothmog. He could also be the one who goes to tell Fingolfin that the Feanorians are not coming.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Hit him on the head to knock him out?
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This is what I have happen in the script where Angrod fights Sauron. He is momentarily distracted by Aegnor's sword breaking, and a troll hits him on the head. This could still happen if it is Gothmog that Aegnor is fighting.
 
I though that the Sauron idea (which I get) had been ruled out? What's the compelling argument for having him in the battle?

I agree though that the story arch is better with Sauron ending her life (personally or by proxy). Could she run from the field, and run across Sauron somewhere?
 
Rhiannon said:
This is what I have happen in the script where Angrod fights Sauron. He is momentarily distracted by Aegnor's sword breaking, and a troll hits him on the head. This could still happen if it is Gothmog that Aegnor is fighting.
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I understand. I'm not too happy about the randomness of that sequence of events. I'd much rather see Aegnor holding him back to save him from making a mindless attack.
 
Haakon said:
I though that the Sauron idea (which I get) had been ruled out? What's the compelling argument for having him in the battle?

I agree though that the story arch is better with Sauron ending her life (personally or by proxy). Could she run from the field, and run across Sauron somewhere?
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The hosts were skeptical about Sauron being present on the battlefield but really liked the scene I wrote where Sauron killed Edhellos, so I requested to write a script where the Balrog's were present, Sauron was the one who killed Edhellos, and the Balrog rule was fulfilled in some way besides Angrod dying.
 
Haakon said:
Could you elaborate this? Wouldn't it be a bit anticlimactic?
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Fingolfin needs to receive word that the Feanorians aren't coming right after he learns that Turgon isn't coming and it appears all hope is lost. Angrod could be the one to go tell Fingolfin. This does have the potential to be anticlimactic.
 
Personally, I believe that we have to attack the Balrog rule - not the rule itself, but the way it has been used in the Angrod discussion. As I understand it, we argued that the Balrogs should not be present, because it wouldn't be a successful battle with them in the field, and we wanted Morgoth to try the strength of his enemies etc (as in the book), and also because we wanted to avoid the death by Balrog. The execs wanted Morgoth to attack with the Balrogs and thought other options were silly, more or less. So, they wanted the Balrogs in the field - and for some reason, everyone assumed that it meant that some named character has to die. I mean that it is not the case. Someone important has to die only if they engage in direct combat with a Balrog. If they are kept away or stay away, no one has to die.
 
Rhiannon said:
Fingolfin needs to receive word that the Feanorians aren't coming right after he learns that Turgon isn't coming and it appears all hope is lost. Angrod could be the one to go tell Fingolfin. This does have the potential to be anticlimactic.
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I think we are trying to avoid using the lords of the Noldor as messengers. I think that this, in addition to the risk of it being anticlimactic, is cause enough to choose a different idea.
 
Rhiannon said:
Fingolfin needs to receive word that the Feanorians aren't coming right after he learns that Turgon isn't coming and it appears all hope is lost. Angrod could be the one to go tell Fingolfin. This does have the potential to be anticlimactic.
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Which is why we had initially suggested that Fingolfin gets the news of Turgon's non-arrival offscreen so that when he and Aegnor/Angrod are reunited (possibly due to Fingolfin and his bodyguard driving off whomever is the immediate threat to Aegnor/Angrod) they share their news coequally, making the battle appear hopeless.
 
I'm concerned that whatever we choose lets Edhellos be redeemed to at least some degree. So, 1) she has to be given the opportunity to confess to Angrod, and 2) her actions should be instrumental in somehow avoiding a catastrophe. If not turning the tide of the battle, then creating a distraction that saves the forces until the arrival of the Fëanoreans.
 
Haakon said:
I'm concerned that whatever we choose lets Edhellos be redeemed to at least some degree. So, 1) she has to be given the opportunity to confess to Angrod, and 2) her actions should be instrumental in somehow avoiding a catastrophe. If not turning the tide of the battle, then creating a distraction that saves the forces until the arrival of the Fëanoreans.
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Edhellos can tell Angrod that the Feanorians aren't coming before she is killed no matter who kills her. I don't think we need her to avert a catastrophe. The battle is supposed to look hopeless until the Feanorians arrive.
 
Haakon said:
Personally, I believe that we have to attack the Balrog rule - not the rule itself, but the way it has been used in the Angrod discussion. As I understand it, we argued that the Balrogs should not be present, because it wouldn't be a successful battle with them in the field, and we wanted Morgoth to try the strength of his enemies etc (as in the book), and also because we wanted to avoid the death by Balrog. The execs wanted Morgoth to attack with the Balrogs and thought other options were silly, more or less. So, they wanted the Balrogs in the field - and for some reason, everyone assumed that it meant that some named character has to die. I mean that it is not the case. Someone important has to die only if they engage in direct combat with a Balrog. If they are kept away or stay away, no one has to die.
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Honestly, I have to say that I'm in favor of the Balrog Rule as a cinematic device. Not only will it help protect against Villain Decay in the seasons to come, but it is going to pay dividends once we reach the Bridge of Khazad-dum.

@Haakon and others have repeatedly warned against showing the villains too much, reminding us that Nothing is Scarier. The Balrog Rule helps subvert this, keeping them terrifying (and hated) because they kill people we love.

When we get to Gondolin, this will actually give us a false Hope Spot, when we see two of the balrogs fall.

When we talk about LoTR, it is important to remember the metatext of the project. At this point, kids will have grown up with the show. No one has seen a balrog in actual years. Those who don't know the outcome of the engagement should have the same reaction Legolas does.
 
I agree that we have to be careful, but it doesn’t mean that important elves have to fight Balrogs at all times.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Honestly, I have to say that I'm in favor of the Balrog Rule as a cinematic device. Not only will it help protect against Villain Decay in the seasons to come, but it is going to pay dividends once we reach the Bridge of Khazad-dum.

@Haakon and others have repeatedly warned against showing the villains too much, reminding us that Nothing is Scarier. The Balrog Rule helps subvert this, keeping them terrifying (and hated) because they kill people we love.

When we get to Gondolin, this will actually give us a false Hope Spot, when we see two of the balrogs fall.

When we talk about LoTR, it is important to remember the metatext of the project. At this point, kids will have grown up with the show. No one has seen a balrog in actual years. Those who don't know the outcome of the engagement should have the same reaction Legolas does.
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I do not think the Balrog rule needs to be applied to every appearance of a Balrog to be effective in preventing villain decay. The Balrog-related deaths in the books are plenty effective and memorable enough to stand out over any Balrog appearances in which they do not kill major characters.

I think part of what makes the Bridge of Khazad-dum scary is that the Balrog is something that has not been seen in years. For the viewers, it will have been however long since the last season about the First Age. For the characters, it will have been millennia. Legolas, Gandalf, and the dedicated viewers will know about the Balrogs, but the rest of the Fellowship and people who aren't familiar with the show or LOTR will have to be scared by the Balrog as it appears in that scene because they will have no idea what a Balrog is. And, given the Balrog's approach, its appearance, and the way the Fellowship reacts, I think the last scene of Balrogs in our show could be them skipping through meadows and the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dum would still be terrifying.
 
Haakon said:
I agree that we have to be careful, but it doesn’t mean that important elves have to fight Balrogs at all times.
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That's true. But I would certainly argue that having Balrogs slay unnamed Elves by the fistful will not make them as scary as having them kill a character with whom we have spent time. It just isn't as effective.


Rhiannon said:
I do not think the Balrog rule needs to be applied to every appearance of a Balrog to be effective in preventing villain decay. The Balrog-related deaths in the books are plenty effective and memorable enough to stand out over any Balrog appearances in which they do not kill major characters.
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While you have a valid point, it is important to remember that we aren't making books. People will actually see the balrogs fully realized on screen. They aren't imaginary foes we picture in our minds when the book names them.

And we have plenty of scenes in which the balrogs appear and kill exactly no one. We are in Angband quite a bit. Gothmog himself has quite a number of lines, which, while necessary for the story we are telling, risks making him The Starscream. The Dagor Aglareb is a particularly dangerous scene for his villain cred (as was the first contact with the Calaquendi), because this offensive ends in disaster. In my mind, the more we can do to bolster the aura of fear surrounding him here, the better.
 
Rhiannon said:
And, given the Balrog's approach, its appearance, and the way the Fellowship reacts, I think the last scene of Balrogs in our show could be them skipping through meadows and the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dum would still be terrifying.
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I mean... No, but... ;)
 
I’m arguing that the Balrog rule should not imply that death of a named character is inevitable because I want to avoid the death of Angrod. I have the impression that, should the rule mean that someone dies no matter what, it follows that it is Angrod who should die this time. It should not mean, however, that a named Elf could be attacked and run away, unless there’s a friend nearby who can die instead. An Elf cannot attack and survive, by luck or skill. The Elf can survive only by not engaging in battle at all. Someone will still die, though.
 
Haakon said:
I’m arguing that the Balrog rule should not imply that death of a named character is inevitable because I want to avoid the death of Angrod. I have the impression that, should the rule mean that someone dies no matter what, it follows that it is Angrod who should die this time. It should not mean, however, that a named Elf could be attacked and run away, unless there’s a friend nearby who can die instead. An Elf cannot attack and survive, by luck or skill. The Elf can survive only by not engaging in battle at all. Someone will still die, though.
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Oh... I just realized that you may not be aware of something.

The hosts decided, after reviewing our materials, that the death of Edhellos satisfies the Balrog rule. Angrod does not have to die for that reason.
 
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