Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

[Haerangil]

That scene was gross anyway... that''s what stund coordinators' directors and chis job is, not exactly scriptwriters jobs..

 

[Ange1e4e5]

To kind of illustrate my point about how difficult the scripting of battle scenes is, I present this scene:

Which comes from this line in the film's script:

That still only counts as one!

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

That scene was gross anyway... that''s what stund coordinators' directors and chis job is, not exactly scriptwriters jobs..

It certainly isn't a screenwriter's job. That is precisely my point. An action-heavy script gives the illusion of space where it does not exist, which must be taken into account. Give the stunt coordinator room to do their job .

 

[Rhiannon]

Should I shoot for a lower page count for Episode 9?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Should I shoot for a lower page count for Episode 9?

A little. A lot of the scenes that do have dialogue feel a bit short. This makes sense in the third and fourth acts as the pace heats up (in fact, Fingolfin's retreat after initial contact with the second Orc army effectively slows down that pace by putting them somewhere safe).

But the somewhat staccato rhythm of the first and second act seems a bit much.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

It certainly isn't a screenwriter's job. That is precisely my point. An action-heavy script gives the illusion of space where it does not exist, which must be taken into account. Give the stunt coordinator room to do their job .

What would they be doing in this case?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What would they be doing in this case?

What would who be doing?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What would who be doing?

A stunt coordinator.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

A stunt coordinator.

Working out exactly what the stunt people and actors will be doing to convey an exciting action scene.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Found this about stunt choreography in Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. Might prove useful when we get to more one-on-one fights.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Found this about stunt choreography in Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. Might prove useful when we get to more one-on-one fights.

There are certainly a lot of things from those films that we want to avoid. We definitely don't want nearly as much useless spinning. Attacks should be aimed at the enemy, rather than their weapon. Combatants in the "bind" should attempting to harm their opponent rather than engage in some weird shoving contest.

Star Wars isn't alone in suffering from these sorts of things. Many Hollywood films do. Sometimes the "mistakes" made in these fights have legitimate cinematic value. Other times, the techniques used barely even play lip-service to actual swordplay, trusting in speed and camera work to prevent the audience' noticing the problems.

Also, we likely won't have as many "duels" per se. Most of the fighting that occurs happens in battles, where lengthy one-on-one fights are rare.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

There are certainly a lot of things from those films that we want to avoid. We definitely don't want nearly as much useless spinning. Attacks should be aimed at the enemy, rather than their weapon. Combatants in the "bind" should attempting to harm their opponent rather than engage in some weird shoving contest.

Star Wars isn't alone in suffering from these sorts of things. Many Hollywood films do. Sometimes the "mistakes" made in these fights have legitimate cinematic value. Other times, the techniques used barely even play lip-service to actual swordplay, trusting in speed and camera work to prevent the audience' noticing the problems.

Also, we likely won't have as many "duels" per se. Most of the fighting that occurs happens in battles, where lengthy one-on-one fights are rare.

I chose that particular video because it discussed the planning from a choreographer’s point of view, that when you don’t connect on one strike, you try to hit another spot based on momentum. It’s at 2:15 to 2:40, and you can see that they’re actually trying to hit each other.

I would say it’s much better than the Sand Snakes fight in Game of Thrones.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I chose that particular video because it discussed the planning from a choreographer’s point of view, that when you don’t connect on one strike, you try to hit another spot based on momentum. It’s at 2:15 to 2:40, and you can see that they’re actually trying to hit each other.

I would say it’s much better than the Sand Snakes fight in Game of Thrones.

If you look closely at the section you mentioned, particularly the slowed down portion, you can see that the Darth Maul stand-in's attacks are about 1-2 feet short of being able to strike his opponent. Even if no party attempts were made, the attacks would swing through empty air.

This is from a different scene, but Shad brings up a lot of the sort of thing I'm talking about in this video.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

If you look closely at the section you mentioned, particularly the slowed down portion, you can see that the Darth Maul stand-in's attacks are about 1-2 feet short of being able to strike his opponent. Even if no party attempts were made, the attacks would swing through empty air.

This is from a different scene, but Shad brings up a lot of the sort of thing I'm talking about in this video.

He also made one of the final duel in Revenge of the Sith, and he thinks it’s done much better than the one in The Last Jedi.

 

[MithLuin]

Stage fighting is mostly designed to 1) look cool and 2) not injure the actors. So, yeah, you choreograph it, you don't just tell them to start swinging at each other. But more than that, you let the tricks of camera angles convince the audience that hits are happening when they are not, in fact, actually hitting one another.

There are exceptions. When John Rhys Davies was in the Gimli costume, he had enough latex on his face to really severely limit his vision. So, rather than try to figure out the niceties of how to pull his strikes and make them look good, he just hit all the stunt guys with the axe. Sometimes, your actors are actually trained in whatever style of fighting is happening, so they can deliver something that looks remarkably real. And sometimes, people get hurt despite the choreography.

We want fight scenes that look cool in this show, no doubt, but we are trying to create a fantasy world with a realistic underpinning, so the goal is to make the battle scenes look (at least somewhat) like real battles. That means that 'because it looks cool' isn't reason alone to make choices about action sequences, though of course it can be a factor.

 

[Rhiannon]

I finally have some time to work on Episode 9 again, so before I get to far into it, could you guys let me know what you think of my work-around for the Balrog rule? My plan is to move the capture of Annael and Rhogrin to Episode 11 or 12.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I finally have some time to work on Episode 9 again, so before I get to far into it, could you guys let me know what you think of my work-around for the Balrog rule? My plan is to move the capture of Annael and Rhogrin to Episode 11 or 12.

Without having looked back at the outlines, I don't remember an abundance of space in those episodes.

 

[Rhiannon]

I think I could do it with two quick scenes in Episode 11 and make room by condensing a few of the longer scenes and cutting out the scene where Turgon and his captains go past the Dry River and have to turn back.

 

[MithLuin]

The entire reason Rog gets captured in Episode 9 is because he is trying to warn the elves of the 2nd orc army's approach.

Sure, we could not bother showing Aredhel try to warn them and just not send a messenger...but we want to increase tension by having the audience aware of both the approaching orc army...and the elves' ignorance of the approaching orc army when the messenger fails to get through.

I am not saying that what you are suggesting fails to do that - I am only saying what I thought the purpose of that sequence was, so that we can evaluate its loss in the context of the script revision.

 

[Rhiannon]

The entire reason Rog gets captured in Episode 9 is because he is trying to warn the elves of the 2nd orc army's approach.

Sure, we could not bother showing Aredhel try to warn them and just not send a messenger...but we want to increase tension by having the audience aware of both the approaching orc army...and the elves' ignorance of the approaching orc army when the messenger fails to get through.

I am not saying that what you are suggesting fails to do that - I am only saying what I thought the purpose of that sequence was, so that we can evaluate its loss in the context of the script revision.

I have Rhogrin apparently killed by a Balrog as he tries to take the message to Fingolfin, so that's why the message doesn't get through.