Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

Yes but is the whole scene from Elven perspective?

AEGNOR: Brother! Listen to that demon! It speaks...what does it say?
ANGROD: It sounds like the language of the Ainur!
AEGNOR: Yes, you are right!
ANGROD: It says something about slavery and someone terrible?
AEGNOR: Terrible slaves?
ANGROD: No...slavery is terrible?
AEGNOR: Terror is slavery?
 
Haakon said:
Yes but is the whole scene from Elven perspective?

AEGNOR: Brother! Listen to that demon! It speaks...what does it say?
ANGROD: It sounds like the language of the Ainur!
AEGNOR: Yes, you are right!
ANGROD: It says something about slavery and someone terrible?
AEGNOR: Terrible slaves?
ANGROD: No...slavery is terrible?
AEGNOR: Terror is slavery?
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Perspective is rarely shot from only one perspective in cinema or television, unless the director really wants to focus the attention of the audience or restrict their knowledge of an event. I'd say shooting this scene conventionally, and in the language of the audience without drawing a lot of attention to what language is being actually spoken makes the most sense.
 
Another problem with Gothmog killing Edhellos while mentioning Sauron is that there is no way Angrod and Aegnor would identify Sauron himself with that name. They might understand that there is someone called "the abhorred" in Angband, but few of them have seen Mairon, and I don't think they would make the connection that Mairon = Sauron.
 
I've written a version of Episode 9 where Sauron and his cats and werewolves only stay on the fringes of the battle and try to take prisoners. Sauron and some Werewolves pursue Ecthelion to the edge of the river Sirion, which puts Sauron behind the Elven lines at the Fens of Serech. Ecthelion swims across the river, and Sauron turns into a Vampire to fly across. When he notices that Edhellos is happy to be fighting beside her family and leading her troops effectively, he decides to intervene and mess that up, so Edhellos' death proceeds pretty much as written in my alternate script.

Does that sound like a plausible reason for Sauron to be near enough to Edhellos to kill her?
 
Rhiannon said:
I've written a version of Episode 9 where Sauron and his cats and werewolves only stay on the fringes of the battle and try to take prisoners. Sauron and some Werewolves pursue Ecthelion to the edge of the river Sirion, which puts Sauron behind the Elven lines at the Fens of Serech. Ecthelion swims across the river, and Sauron turns into a Vampire to fly across. When he notices that Edhellos is happy to be fighting beside her family and leading her troops effectively, he decides to intervene and mess that up, so Edhellos' death proceeds pretty much as written in my alternate script.

Does that sound like a plausible reason for Sauron to be near enough to Edhellos to kill her?
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My concern there is that it seems to require Edhellos to be free of Morgoth's influence for a lot longer, rather than just a minute or two.

Having the Elves discover the name "Sauron" before they know to whom it is attached doesn't seem like a problem to me.

On the other hand, we could just hold off on that.
 
Rhiannon said:
Another problem with Gothmog killing Edhellos while mentioning Sauron is that there is no way Angrod and Aegnor would identify Sauron himself with that name. They might understand that there is someone called "the abhorred" in Angband, but few of them have seen Mairon, and I don't think they would make the connection that Mairon = Sauron.
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Yes, so even if they hear the name now and understand that someone called the Abhorred has had Edhellos as a slave, they don’t know anything else and don’t connect the name to anyone. But if slaves escape later (Rhogrin?) they could talk about the powers of Angband and bring up the name again. The Elves then recall the story of Edhellos. Even later, when Sauron becomes the master of Tol Sirion, his identity becomes well known.
 
Rhiannon said:
I've written a version of Episode 9 where Sauron and his cats and werewolves only stay on the fringes of the battle and try to take prisoners. Sauron and some Werewolves pursue Ecthelion to the edge of the river Sirion, which puts Sauron behind the Elven lines at the Fens of Serech. Ecthelion swims across the river, and Sauron turns into a Vampire to fly across. When he notices that Edhellos is happy to be fighting beside her family and leading her troops effectively, he decides to intervene and mess that up, so Edhellos' death proceeds pretty much as written in my alternate script.
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Well, firstly, is Ecthelion actually here, or is that a typo?

Secondly, how is Edhellos happy to fight beside her family and leading her troops effectively while under Morgoth's control?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Well, firstly, is Ecthelion actually here, or is that a typo?

Secondly, how is Edhellos happy to fight beside her family and leading her troops effectively while under Morgoth's control?
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Ecthelion is the messenger Turgon sends to tell Fingolfin that he cannot come to the battle after his dream of Vinyamar under attack.

Edhellos acts pretty much normal when Morgoth isn't directly forcing her to do something like kill the messenger.
 
Rhiannon said:
Ecthelion is the messenger Turgon sends to tell Fingolfin that he cannot come to the battle after his dream of Vinyamar under attack.

Edhellos acts pretty much normal when Morgoth isn't directly forcing her to do something like kill the messenger.
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That seems like a risky job to send one of your top commanders to do.

The issue of Sauron seems to me to be a contrivance to get him onto the battlefield, and if he is seeing Edhellos prior to her confession (the state you are describing makes nearly no sense to me after), if he is unhappy with what she is doing, whose fault is that? Are we saying that Morgoth just isn't good enough at controlling her for Sauron to think it's worth it?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
That seems like a risky job to send one of your top commanders to do.

The issue of Sauron seems to me to be a contrivance to get him onto the battlefield, and if he is seeing Edhellos prior to her confession (the state you are describing makes nearly no sense to me after), if he is unhappy with what she is doing, whose fault is that? Are we saying that Morgoth just isn't good enough at controlling her for Sauron to think it's worth it?
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If Sauron is taking prisoners, he would be near the battlefield anyway. He sees Edhellos at a hopeful moment in battle, and, at this moment, Morgoth can't resist not destroying the Elves' hope by making Edhellos reveal that the Feanorians aren't coming then, as Edhellos is struggling against the spell, Sauron can't resist not killing Edhellos in front of Angrod.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
That seems like a risky job to send one of your top commanders to do.

The issue of Sauron seems to me to be a contrivance to get him onto the battlefield, and if he is seeing Edhellos prior to her confession (the state you are describing makes nearly no sense to me after), if he is unhappy with what she is doing, whose fault is that? Are we saying that Morgoth just isn't good enough at controlling her for Sauron to think it's worth it?
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Who do you send instead?
 
The reasons I chose Ecthelion were that he was the one Turgon was talking to about his dream, he isa character the viewers were familiar with, and because of his status, Ecthelion was a good choice to represent Turgon in the council of the Noldor and Sindar in which the Ban is discussed in the next episode.
 
Rhiannon said:
The reasons I chose Ecthelion were that he was the one Turgon was talking to about his dream, he isa character the viewers were familiar with, and because of his status, Ecthelion was a good choice to represent Turgon in the council of the Noldor and Sindar in which the Ban is discussed in the next episode.
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Ange1e4e5 said:
Who do you send instead?
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I would send an unnamed messenger (of which there are plenty), not adding to the amount of scenes and dialogue to explain what is happening. I would probably have the messenger speak to Fingolfin off-screen so that we deal with that when Fingolfin and Aegnor (and Angrod?) make contact to give the audience an update on what is going on.

The problem I have with sending Ecthelion specifically is that Ecthelion likely has troops to command. Outside of battle, this isn't an issue, but in the middle of a battle, you don't generally order one of your troop commanders to leave his men and send him to a battlefield, the available intelligence on which is scanty, to risk contact with the enemy in order to deliver a message which could just as easily be delivered by someone else. Turgon doesn't need a voice in council, since he is not bringing his troops to Minas Tirith.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I would send an unnamed messenger (of which there are plenty), not adding to the amount of scenes and dialogue to explain what is happening. I would probably have the messenger speak to Fingolfin off-screen so that we deal with that when Fingolfin and Aegnor (and Angrod?) make contact to give the audience an update on what is going on.

The problem I have with sending Ecthelion specifically is that Ecthelion likely has troops to command. Outside of battle, this isn't an issue, but in the middle of a battle, you don't generally order one of your troop commanders to leave his men and send him to a battlefield, the available intelligence on which is scanty, to risk contact with the enemy in order to deliver a message which could just as easily be delivered by someone else. Turgon doesn't need a voice in council, since he is not bringing his troops to Minas Tirith.
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I have Glorfindel taking command of Ecthelion's troops in the battle of Vinyamar. Also, Rhogrin has troops to command, yet he is a messenger from Barad Eithel, and Edrahil is one of Finrod's captains but is the messenger to Doriath. It's even possible that Turgon sent Ecthelion because he was a good commander. Turgon couldn't spare his army to help Fingolfin, so he sends one of his best commanders to advise him. I have Ecthelion taking a pretty active role in the battle after he arrives.

There are several scenes in Episode 10 that either directly involve Ecthelion or depend on him having been at the battle. I could give all those lines to an unnamed messenger (he would probably need a name then), but I think the scenes would work better with Ecthelion.

Ecthelion may not be the best person Turgon could choose to be the messenger, but I don't think it is too improbable that it couldn't happen.
 
Rhiannon said:
I have Glorfindel taking command of Ecthelion's troops in the battle of Vinyamar. Also, Rhogrin has troops to command, yet he is a messenger from Barad Eithel, and Edrahil is one of Finrod's captains but is the messenger to Doriath. It's even possible that Turgon sent Ecthelion because he was a good commander. Turgon couldn't spare his army to help Fingolfin, so he sends one of his best commanders to advise him. I have Ecthelion taking a pretty active role in the battle after he arrives.

There are several scenes in Episode 10 that either directly involve Ecthelion or depend on him having been at the battle. I could give all those lines to an unnamed messenger (he would probably need a name then), but I think the scenes would work better with Ecthelion.

Ecthelion may not be the best person Turgon could choose to be the messenger, but I don't think it is too improbable that it couldn't happen.
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Our characterization of Rhogrin is a bit different. I'm ok with Rhogrin making a tactical error and paying the price. I'm less ok with Turgon making the same error. I understand that you may have built additional material on this decision, which has happened to us before. I'm just really not ok with using Ecthelion as what could be interpreted as an elaborate means of getting Sauron face-to-face with Edhellos.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Our characterization of Rhogrin is a bit different. I'm ok with Rhogrin making a tactical error and paying the price. I'm less ok with Turgon making the same error. I understand that you may have built additional material on this decision, which has happened to us before. I'm just really not ok with using Ecthelion as what could be interpreted as an elaborate means of getting Sauron face-to-face with Edhellos.
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Is it a bigger problem for you that he is the messenger or that Sauron chases him?
 
I think that my biggest issue is that we are taking a fair amount of screen time from the battle and the several plots that are going on there to A) explain what Sauron is doing there, B) show the adventures of Ecthelion on his way to deliver his message, and C) have Sauron decide she is not sufficiently under control and miserable so that he has to kill her.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I think that my biggest issue is that we are taking a fair amount of screen time from the battle and the several plots that are going on there to A) explain what Sauron is doing there, B) show the adventures of Ecthelion on his way to deliver his message, and C) have Sauron decide she is not sufficiently under control and miserable so that he has to kill her.
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It’s really not taking time away from the battle. I already had a scene of Ecthelion traveling, now the scene just has werewolves.
 
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