I would be most comfortable if the Balrogs spoke as little as possible, or preferably not at all. I can live with a few words from Gothmog, as he is their leader, but even his language should be really simple.
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Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
A fair point. One thing I definitely don't want is for the Elves to come up with the same name as Gothmog independently. It's just too coincidental. This could happen, but it would have to be a different episode, probably in S05.
I agree that the Elves shouldn't come up with an identical name independently.
About the idea on a escaped prisoner revealing the name: the prisoner should perhaps not refer to the Balrogs using the name, if we don't want them to speak a lot, but maybe to Boldog or some orc captain.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
How well do the Orcs know Quenya or Sindarin?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Honestly, this isn't something I'm super-concerned about, but presumably, Gothmog speaks the same language he has spoken since the show began, a language the Valar also speak. I'm ok with the Calaquendi being able to understand him.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Hmm... so lets say the Balrogs speak Melkian... could an elf understand that language and would he translate Sauron's nickname to Quenya? I mean... possibly... , they have a number of language-geniuses among them. In this point im a bit sad we didn't take Rumil with us and made him one of the thrall-elves too, like in LT where he states he learned the languages of all demons and goblins and even animals during his imprisonment...
But someone LIKE him, an elder thrall of sorts... such a person could exist.And he of course would know Sauron's names and be able to translate them... no big deal!
But someone LIKE him, an elder thrall of sorts... such a person could exist.And he of course would know Sauron's names and be able to translate them... no big deal!
About balrogs not talking much....
It's obviously true that Durin's Bane has no dialogue in his confrontation with Gandalf in Moria, and presumably he wasn't chatting with the dwarves or orcs, either. He's a silent terrifying menace who gets his wishes across without saying anything.
Preserving that to an extent is good, but while some of the other balrogs can be silent, we absolutely will need to put words in Gothmog's mouth frequently enough that the audience is used to him talking and comfortable with it. His entire rivalry with Sauron requires a back-and-forth.
I am fine with not making him chatty, I just think it's good to acknowledge that Gothmog isn't going to be a silent or even mostly silent character. When he's on screen, he probably has dialogue (unless Morgoth is also onscreen, in which case he can play the role of a silent yes-man).
It's obviously true that Durin's Bane has no dialogue in his confrontation with Gandalf in Moria, and presumably he wasn't chatting with the dwarves or orcs, either. He's a silent terrifying menace who gets his wishes across without saying anything.
Preserving that to an extent is good, but while some of the other balrogs can be silent, we absolutely will need to put words in Gothmog's mouth frequently enough that the audience is used to him talking and comfortable with it. His entire rivalry with Sauron requires a back-and-forth.
I am fine with not making him chatty, I just think it's good to acknowledge that Gothmog isn't going to be a silent or even mostly silent character. When he's on screen, he probably has dialogue (unless Morgoth is also onscreen, in which case he can play the role of a silent yes-man).
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
In the case of the Fall of Numenor, he probably gambled that nobody on Numenor lived long enough to remember him by that identity. Of course, the fact that he used an Elvish designation (Tar-Marion) is another matter.
Octoburn
Active Member
Sorry, I misspoke. I meant to say that he did not go by Sauron until after the Fall of Numenor, meaning he went by Mairon until that time.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
And yet he’s referred to in-text as Sauron or Gorthaur in The Silmarillion. before he comes to Numenor.
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Yes we must have someone or a number of Elves who act as interpreters in Angband. It’s not too difficult to imagine the prisoners learning orcish or whatever. They will probably not speak the languages of the enemy themselves though, unless absolutely necessary.
Díriel could perhaps be one of those interpreters.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I mean, we don't HAVE to say Gothmog speaks Melkian. That was a fairly underdeveloped concept which was abandoned fairly early.
I think the idea that the orcs and the elven prisoners speak different languages would be a good one to incorporate, given the opportunity.
I am fine with Gothmog and Morgoth and Sauron speaking whatever languages they want - no reason to create a language barrier between them and the elves, I wouldn't think. Morgoth was in Valinor and certainly learned Quenya. Sauron was working closely with Sindar elves he'd captured, and no doubt learned that.
I agree that balrogs don't come across as language experts....but since it's English on screen anyway....I'm fine just not addressing what Gothmog is speaking and letting the audience draw their own conclusions.
I am fine with Gothmog and Morgoth and Sauron speaking whatever languages they want - no reason to create a language barrier between them and the elves, I wouldn't think. Morgoth was in Valinor and certainly learned Quenya. Sauron was working closely with Sindar elves he'd captured, and no doubt learned that.
I agree that balrogs don't come across as language experts....but since it's English on screen anyway....I'm fine just not addressing what Gothmog is speaking and letting the audience draw their own conclusions.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
He’d need to speak to issue orders in the field.
Question: what happens if we don’t have enough nominations for a role?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Likely, we will vote on the available nominations.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
The way I've tried to depict different languages being used in the same scene is indicating that the language least used or least familiar to the characters the scene focuses on should be in subtitles. For example, in scenes that depict the Noldor's point of view, Sindarin is generally subtitled. After the Noldor accept Thingol's ban, I assume that everything is in Sindarin except for a few subtitled phrases in Quenya.
Should I indicate that what Gothmog says in this battle is subtitled?
Should I indicate that what Gothmog says in this battle is subtitled?
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Whatever language Gothmog is speaking, it seems best that we just roll with the idea that Angrod and Aegnor can understand him, so no. I don't think he should be subtitled.