Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

[MithLuin]

'Average viewer' - clearly Marvel fans noticed that Hela killed the Warriors Three and knew their names.

It was just very odd that they chose to kill off 'named characters' with so little build up or introduction. No effort was made to make the audience know or care who those guys were. And they are meant to be Thor's best friends!

 

[Haakon]

I’m not really a Marvel fan but I’ve actually seen two Thor movies... I recognised the guy (and perhaps the others) but didn’t remember his name.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

'Average viewer' - clearly Marvel fans noticed that Hela killed the Warriors Three and knew their names.

It was just very odd that they chose to kill off 'named characters' with so little build up or introduction. No effort was made to make the audience know or care who those guys were. And they are meant to be Thor's best friends!

I think that they assumed that the audience knows who they are at this point, considering how much of a role they played in previous films in the MCU.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

'Average viewer' - clearly Marvel fans noticed that Hela killed the Warriors Three and knew their names.

It was just very odd that they chose to kill off 'named characters' with so little build up or introduction. No effort was made to make the audience know or care who those guys were. And they are meant to be Thor's best friends!

The scene when Hela arrives at the Bifrost Gate was super jarring. I had just enough time to go "Hey, it's Volstagg and... oh, that was quick."

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The scene when Hela arrives at the Bifrost Gate was super jarring. I had just enough time to go "Hey, it's Volstagg and... oh, that was quick."

See how important it is to introduce characters in the first act? That scene would have been much more impactful with a single scene between Thor and his old friends before Thor and Loki left for Earth.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

See how important it is to introduce characters in the first act? That scene would have been much more impactful with a single scene between Thor and his old friends before Thor and Loki left for Earth.

Truth to be told, that scene is properly in the first act of the film (the second act doesn't really start until we go to Sakaar), but their story starts and ends there as far as the film is concerned.

 

[MithLuin]

So, as expected, it was a rather spirited conversation about balrogs and (to a lesser extent) about the death of Angrod.

Looks like there's going to be a few minor changes made to the Script Outlines....

Balrogs or Angrod? If you had to choose....

 

[Rhiannon]

So, as expected, it was a rather spirited conversation about balrogs and (to a lesser extent) about the death of Angrod.

Looks like there's going to be a few minor changes made to the Script Outlines....

Balrogs or Angrod? If you had to choose....

But, most importantly,

 

[MithLuin]

* if you let Gothmog kill Edhellos.

 

[Haakon]

* if you let Gothmog kill Edhellos.

Is that the proposed solution or alternative? That the balrog-killed named character is Edhellos?

 

[Rhiannon]

Is that the proposed solution or alternative? That the balrog-killed named character is Edhellos?

That is a proposed solution. Another possibility is for Sauron to kill Edhellos as happens in my current alternate script (and in the process earn the name Sauron by doing something extremely abhorrent, break Aegnor’s sword that will be replaced by Narsil, and set up the long-standing conflict between Sauron and the house of Finarfin) and the Balrogs’ prowess to be demonstrated without the death of a major named character.

 

[MithLuin]

Corey Olsen didn't sound on board with that, to be fair.

Basically, he stuck to his guns that the Dagor Aglareb was Gothmog's project and Gothmog's armies. He was very opposed to either Morgoth or Sauron being responsible for this battle. He requested that Sauron's forces (werewolves, vampires, cats) not be part of the main battle (though they are able to opportunistically kidnap Annael and Rog while the battle is going on.) And therefore, he wants balrogs to appear in the battle in some capacity, being included in the fighting....and he wants a significant named character whom the audience cares about to die at the hands of the balrogs.

So, yes, with the death of Edhellos serving that function, it's possible to have Angrod wounded rather than mortally wounded. Corey considers her 'important' enough at this point in Season 4 to count as a named balrog death. He can see why the balrogs (especially Gothmog) would go out of their way to smash Sauron's toy (since Edhellos was originally his prisoner, his project).

He did leave the door open for you to try to convince him otherwise, but based on last night's discussion, he sounded very skeptical about having Sauron be the one to kill Edhellos (or appear on this battlefield at all), and very much willing to 'revoke' his pardon of Angrod if she weren't killed by Gothmog.

So, choose wisely....you can only win one of these fights, it looks like.

 

[Haakon]

Personally I was kind of won over by Corey before. The main argument for me was that next season would focus on Aegnor and Andreth, and his death in Dagor Bragollach. Angrod would be a secondary and rather obsolete character, at least in comparison to his importance this season. So, his death this season would serve his storyarch better. The downside or counter argument would be that Angrod could be needed as his brother’s confidante , and that their death would be a poetic end. But it would take something essential from the Andreth story, connecting Aegnor more to his brother than to Andreth.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Personally I was kind of won over by Corey before. The main argument for me was that next season would focus on Aegnor and Andreth, and his death in Dagor Bragollach. Angrod would be a secondary and rather obsolete character, at least in comparison to his importance this season. So, his death this season would serve his storyarch better. The downside or counter argument would be that Angrod could be needed as his brother’s confidante , and that their death would be a poetic end. But it would take something essential from the Andreth story, connecting Aegnor more to his brother than to Andreth.

Most of next season's stories will be told from the Elvish perspective. Humans are going to come and go in our story, so quickly that the audience is not always going to feel like they got to know someone before they were gone. I feel like that is kind of necessary to give us how the elves view their human allies. Beor is probably going to be gone within a few short episodes. Now, Hurin is going to feel almost long-lived by comparison. He's going to survive his first season and to the end of the next. That's because we're going to slow down to a relative crawl once we get to Beren. Beren himself is going to live through his season, the Nirnaeth, Turin's season, and possibly the one after. But through the Bragollach, we should be seeing humans as the Elves do.

 

[Haakon]

Most of next season's stories will be told from the Elvish perspective. Humans are going to come and go in our story, so quickly that the audience is not always going to feel like they got to know someone before they were gone. I feel like that is kind of necessary to give us how the elves view their human allies. Beor is probably going to be gone within a few short episodes. Now, Hurin is going to feel almost long-lived by comparison. He's going to survive his first season and to the end of the next. That's because we're going to slow down to a relative crawl once we get to Beren. Beren himself is going to live through his season, the Nirnaeth, Turin's season, and possibly the one after. But through the Bragollach, we should be seeing humans as the Elves do.

What are you saying - no Andreth?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What are you saying - no Andreth?

What I'm saying is that her story is going to be short.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What I'm saying is that her story is going to be short.

She's going to last a long time too; she's alive before Aredhel's return to Gondolin and will likely die at the end of the season circa the Dagor Bragollach.

 

[Haakon]

I think the idea wasn’t that the next season would be all about Andreth. The idea was that it would be one of the stories. All I’m saying is that that story will be clearer without Angrod, perhaps even more so if the story is small rather than big.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I think the idea wasn’t that the next season would be all about Andreth. The idea was that it would be one of the stories. All I’m saying is that that story will be clearer without Angrod, perhaps even more so if the story is small rather than big.

I can live with that.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I think the idea wasn’t that the next season would be all about Andreth. The idea was that it would be one of the stories. All I’m saying is that that story will be clearer without Angrod, perhaps even more so if the story is small rather than big.

Right, so the part of the story we tell between Andreth and Aegnor can certainly be Angrod-free. He doesn't need to be dead for that to happen.

She's going to last a long time too; she's alive before Aredhel's return to Gondolin and will likely die at the end of the season circa the Dagor Bragollach.

That is still merely a part of one season rather than the 2.5 seasons that Aegnor will have been a character.