Session 4-34: Listener Contributions

Kathrin

Active Member
So how come it took Morgoth so long to find it without the maximum level of security afforded to Gondolin or Doriath? It took the increasing armament of Nargothrond by Turin to reveal its location to Morgoth.
I guess the difference between those is that with Nargothrond you only need to conceal a couple of hundred meters square very well. And if people stumble in your general region you can either choose to go get them and let them in (maybe still blindfolded if you don't entirely trust them) or you leave them just stumble around except if they come dangerously close to the entrance. Gondolin and Doriath depend on their protective/hostile borders, but once someone goes scouting around there, there's a lot of space for intruders to stumble upon or to have to be driven away from right?
 

Octoburn

Active Member
So how come it took Morgoth so long to find it without the maximum level of security afforded to Gondolin or Doriath? It took the increasing armament of Nargothrond by Turin to reveal its location to Morgoth.
I believe that the main thing was the distance from Angband. It is, I believe, the farthest away. Secondly, is the Talath Dirnen, the vast Guarded Plain that any army would have to cross to approach Nargothrond. It was guarded by many towers and spies from enemies. Plus, any enemies would have to pass Barad Eithel AND Minas Tirith just to get that far. This was where Beren was captured as he tried to cross. Not to mention the narrow pathway that led to it's entrance would make it nearly unassailable, apart from a certain bridge and fire-breathing dragon.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Season 5
First session March 26. Will take same form as Season 4 podcast discussions.

Questions: How to show passage of time with generations of humans? How to develop human characters? Bëor, Eöl and Aredhel story, Andreth and Aegnor, lead up to Dagor Bragollach.
I've been working on significant events concerning the Edain on the Concerns about Season 5 thread, post 252. Right now it's the Coming of Men, the Dissent of Bereg, the attack on the stockade of F.A. 375 where we are introduced to Haleth, Aegnor and Andreth, and finally the Dagor Bragollach.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
So how come it took Morgoth so long to find it without the maximum level of security afforded to Gondolin or Doriath? It took the increasing armament of Nargothrond by Turin to reveal its location to Morgoth.
I would add that, while Finrod's willingness to tell more Elves about the location of Nargothrond might seem less wise because those people could betray the location to the enemy, I doubt any actually do. I think Turgon's anyone-who-learns-the-location-of-Gondolin-must-live-here-or-die policy is a bit overkill and should seem such in comparison to Finrod's more open policy about Nargothrond.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I would add that, while Finrod's willingness to tell more Elves about the location of Nargothrond might seem less wise because those people could betray the location to the enemy, I doubt any actually do. I think Turgon's anyone-who-learns-the-location-of-Gondolin-must-live-here-or-die policy is a bit overkill and should seem such in comparison to Finrod's more open policy about Nargothrond.
What do you think the reason for that is?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
What do you think the reason for that is?
I'm not sure whether you're asking the reason no one betrays Nargothrond or the reason Turgon's policy seems overkill, but I have answers for both.

The main reason I think those who know where Nargothrond is do not reveal it is that there is no evidence of the bad guys learning of Nargothrond that way. As you said, it is the shift to a policy of open war led by Turin that reveals Nargothrond to Morgoth. He does not know of its exact location until this time, not though he and Sauron likely have plenty of Elves captive who might know the way. Moreover, I think getting information out of Elves who are determined to hide it is incredibly difficult. Gwindor didn't reveal the location when he was in Angband, and Edrahil and the other Elves captured with Finrod and Beren all chose to die rather than reveal who they were or where they were from. Even in SilmFilm, we have already shown Sauron needing to implement an elaborate plan to trick Edhellos into revealing the Kinslaying. Also, while I think Finrod would be more open about the location of Nargothrond than Turgon is about Gondolin, it's not like he is passing out flyers with the location of Nargothrond marked on a map. He probably shares it with the House of Finwe, high-ranking commanders, and other important people, but an ordinary Elven farmer or low-ranking soldier would not know the location.

I think the simple fact that Turgon is willing to kill other Elves demonstrates that he has gone to far. He is not placing faith in the defenses of Gondolin, in Ulmo, or his own kind's capacity to keep secrets, but rather allowing himself to be ruled by the fear of treason that was part of Mandos's doom, and, ironically, this is exactly what leads to Gondolin's fall through Maeglin.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure whether you're asking the reason no one betrays Nargothrond or the reason Turgon's policy seems overkill, but I have answers for both.

The main reason I think those who know where Nargothrond is do not reveal it is that there is no evidence of the bad guys learning of Nargothrond that way. As you said, it is the shift to a policy of open war led by Turin that reveals Nargothrond to Morgoth. He does not know of its exact location until this time, not though he and Sauron likely have plenty of Elves captive who might know the way. Moreover, I think getting information out of Elves who are determined to hide it is incredibly difficult. Gwindor didn't reveal the location when he was in Angband, and Edrahil and the other Elves captured with Finrod and Beren all chose to die rather than reveal who they were or where they were from. Even in SilmFilm, we have already shown Sauron needing to implement an elaborate plan to trick Edhellos into revealing the Kinslaying. Also, while I think Finrod would be more open about the location of Nargothrond than Turgon is about Gondolin, it's not like he is passing out flyers with the location of Nargothrond marked on a map. He probably shares it with the House of Finwe, high-ranking commanders, and other important people, but an ordinary Elven farmer or low-ranking soldier would not know the location.

I think the simple fact that Turgon is willing to kill other Elves demonstrates that he has gone to far. He is not placing faith in the defenses of Gondolin, in Ulmo, or his own kind's capacity to keep secrets, but rather allowing himself to be ruled by the fear of treason that was part of Mandos's doom, and, ironically, this is exactly what leads to Gondolin's fall through Maeglin.
The former.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Also for Turgon going overkill with stuff, we could foreshadow stuff like that. Consider who he sends with Aredhel: Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Egalmoth, two (if not three) of Gondolin's top commanders. And don't forget that he ignores Aredhel's plea for Eol's life on her deathbed and has him killed (for some reason I've been imagining Turgon doing this himself).
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Also for Turgon going overkill with stuff, we could foreshadow stuff like that. Consider who he sends with Aredhel: Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Egalmoth, two (if not three) of Gondolin's top commanders. And don't forget that he ignores Aredhel's plea for Eol's life on her deathbed and has him killed (for some reason I've been imagining Turgon doing this himself).
Yes, I think Turgon's suspicion of his own citizens is one of the reasons he sends his three top commanders to be Aredhel's guards. They are the only ones he trusts enough for the task. I am not sure Turgon should be the one to physically push Eol from the Caragdur. I feel like he would be more impersonal in his vengeance, and I would rather he issue the sentence then stand back and watch the execution from the side or from a high window or something. We should be careful, also, not to play up Turgon's paranoia too much. Gondolin should still appear to be a paradise with a few warning signs, not a dystopia ruled by a mad king.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes, I think Turgon's suspicion of his own citizens is one of the reasons he sends his three top commanders to be Aredhel's guards. They are the only ones he trusts enough for the task. I am not sure Turgon should be the one to physically push Eol from the Caragdur. I feel like he would be more impersonal in his vengeance, and I would rather he issue the sentence then stand back and watch the execution from the side or from a high window or something. We should be careful, also, not to play up Turgon's paranoia too much. Gondolin should still appear to be a paradise with a few warning signs, not a dystopia ruled by a mad king.
Well it's definitely more a utopia, not a dystopia. It's not like Ba Sing Se in Avatar where they're trying to actively suppress information about the War and trying to brainwash anyone who tries to talk about it.
 
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