Session 4-34: Listener Contributions

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
the discussion here is very interesting, about size, manner of being dangerous etc. maybe the post-production department can get an extension on tevildo & company, not to overturn any decisions made before, but to continue developing?
I think this would be great.
We have mainly focused on on the storylines, the themes of the story, and the scripts, but I think the visualization of the story is super important. Developing the ideas of how these villains look (and other stuff and people as well) should definitely be an open ended project, at least as long as they are part of the series.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think this would be great.
We have mainly focused on on the storylines, the themes of the story, and the scripts, but I think the visualization of the story is super important. Developing the ideas of how these villains look (and other stuff and people as well) should definitely be an open ended project, at least as long as they are part of the series.
To be honest, we haven't really focused on character design outside of individual efforts (particularly Thuringwethil, Dragluin and Tevildo).
 

Kathrin

Active Member
So the summary of my stuff for the session:

scenery stuff:

Keep Helevorn from the north

index.jpg

Keep Helevorn from the south:

2639

Minas Tirith (updated)

2640

I did some sketches of Vinyamar, the palace and the throne before, here is the new Vinyamar landscape, and the general city structure, but I'm not decided on the detailed architecture. I wanna draw the palace some time.

2642

character designs: (here I didn't get as far as I wanted, semester proved a bit tougher than expected. But still, it's a start.)

tevildo sketchery: Here I first did some cat sketching, big cats, small cats, cat faces... like a kitty cheatsheet. And then I tried to mix and match a bit and look what that does. Generally I think the Lion's and the Tigers faces are a bit too removed from cats, but I like them having a bit of a mane. Also the size question: I think they can get quite big but not as bulky and rectangular as the biggest tigers, I don't really like that shape for the sleek kind of action/vibe of Tevildo and his forces. Also I wonder if there is like a beehive-like hierarchy with Tevildo and his cats, so there's a lot of different sizes and shapes of cats for different tasks. The range could go as far as from smaller tigers to bigger wildcats. Or are Tevildo's cats more homogenous?

Also, do they need pattern, for camouflage etc/are a bit darker? Again there different kinds of patterns might be useful to make distinction between different cats. I'm not that good at drawing cats in "battle" yet I'd have to practise that. But I have the start of a picture in my drawing app where I'm trying to have a little action scene at night in the woods. But that's not ready for review ;D Generally Tevildo & co for me are very much still work in progress.

2643

Thuringwethil WIP: I've had the vague picture of Thuringwethil reporting back to Morgoth and flying in&retransforming, but idk I'm not sure yet how she looks as a giant bat, how that transformation goes etc. But this has been sitting around in my drawing app for a while. Also I'll probably separate the transformation into 3 pictures by zooming into the same background for the second "stage" an even more for the 3rd, instead of having the whole transformation in one picture. But yeah this very vague still.

2644

another sketch-sheet (a bit of an older one) where I try to sort out how I feel about dragons and still am not sure. I wanna do a Glaurung sometime. We'll see

2647

And my little dwarf experiment (responding to the season 3 bearded-dwarf-ladies challenge by the hosts): If you had a male and a female dwarf from the same family that resemble each other, have similar clothing & grooming styles, jobs etc, and they both have beards, how would the differences between men and women show? Would they even show as much? Should they show more? Also how much of a spectrum of masculinity-femininity is there, not only between male and female dwarves but also within the genders. That's what I tried to find out here.

I personally have nothing against a little confusion in the viewers in the beginning, it could be even more confusing, (that might be the reason why elves and humans don't know about female dwarves, because if they ever see one they might miss it) but if the decision is to have a marked difference then I wanted to demonstrate it's possible without retreating to the "safer" position of having only very slightly bearded dwarf women.

2651

2652

2653


I won't be able to attend the session but I'm looking forward to listening after the fact, I love this kind of episode.
 
Last edited:

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Kathrin, everything except for the 2 new images made it into the powerpoint. If I have a chance today, I will try to add those images to the Notes I give the Hosts.

Anyone is welcome to send Corey and Trish links to their artwork during the session of course. I tried to hunt down everything on the boards from Season 4.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-34: Listener Contributions

Listeners can get involved in many ways: sets/locations, creature design, costume/armor/weapons design, lighting challenges, special effects, props, cartography, art/architecture/sculpture/jewelry, language

Glaurung
Considered: Kathrin’s sketches and Rhiannon’s painting and sculpture
Hosts requested Glaurung be more lizard-like and less snake-like. Their favorite body type was the middle one in Kathirn’s sketch. They liked the horns on Rhiannon’s sculpture but thought the little nose horn might be too cute.

Thuringwethil
Considered: Rhiannon’s painting
Thuringwethil is a shapeshifter. The painting shows Thuringwethil as part human, part beast. She can shift fully into a bat for flying. Not a giant bat, but a little larger than a regular bat. She does not need to obey the law of conservation of mass. Thuringwethil is not sexy and is not Sauron’s girlfriend. Her shapeshifting is a way to portray her character. She has a batcloak of shadow that Lúthien will take instead of skinning Thuringwethil. Lúthien’s cloak could merge with Thuringwethil’s cloak.

Tevildo and Draugluin
Considered: Hakan’s sketch, Rhiannon’s painting, and Marie’s photo manip
The hosts liked the bearded Tevildo. He has to look not like a real cat and look sadistic. Tevildo should be the creepiest of Sauron’s minions. Draugluin can look more like a regular wolf but larger.

Himring
Considered: Nick’s 3D model and Marie’s design
Star fort vs Norman keep. The star fort is like the Star of Fëanor. It is practical and looks imposing with all the towers.

Tol Sirion
Considered: Kathrin’s painting and Octoburn’s 3D model
The hosts liked the city design of the painting and the double drawbridges. The vertical tower was good.

Keep Helevorn
Considered: two of Kathrin’s paintings
The hosts liked the terrain and how it looked both beautiful and defensible.

Vinyamar
Considered: Kathrin’s painting
City up on a promontory. Turgon’s palace looks west and is at the westernmost point of the town. In Gondolin, Turgon’s tower will symbolize his pride.

Gondolin Luxury Apartment
Considered: Nick’s Minecraft model, Rhiannon’s painting
It is very vertical. Everything in Gondolin, even common housing is beautiful and less concerned with defense.

Gates of Nargothrond
Considered: Rhiannon’s sketch, Nick’s Minecraft model
These are attempts to resolve the disparity between Tolkien’s illustrations of Nargothrond and descriptions of its secrecy. The entrance is not visible from the other side of the river or up or downstream. The gates show that Finrod is serious about secrecy but cares about beauty and grandeur. The trees will be cut down when the bridge is made.

Gate of Menegroth
Considered: Nick’s Minecraft model
Nick stages spider attack on Menegroth. Gates are highly fortified on the inside.

Jewelry – Engagement rings for Galadriel and Celeborn
Finrod gives the ring he was going to give to Amarië to Galadriel to give to Celeborn, so it is not specifically designed for Celeborn and should have jewels. How similar should Galadriel’s wedding ring look to Nenya? Leaf ring with Laurelin and Telperion leaves or flowers given to Galadriel by Celeborn as part of healing process.

Frame character design
Considered: Bre’s paintings
Gandalf not identical to film Gandalf, has rough staff. Dwarvs are very broad, not proportioned like humans.

Male and Female Dwarves
Considered: Kathrin’s paintings
Dwarven women should not look like human females with beards but rather like a different race. Bearded women should be a reflection of a different concept of secondary sex characteristics. Maybe only Dwarven men could have mustaches.

Elven costume designs
Considered: Bre’s paintings
Falathrim, Hithlum, and Nargothrond. Hithlum soldiers wear fur because it is cold. Elves wear plate armor.

Galadriel
Considered: Bre’s painting of 3rd age Galadriel and costume evolution
Galadriel’s style of dress changes over time. When in Doriath, she wears clothes like Lúthien and Melian and adopts the cultural norms of the Sindar, dark grays and purples. Her wedding dress can be fancy and she can introduce Noldorin fashions to Doriath.

Season 5
First session March 26. Will take same form as Season 4 podcast discussions.

Questions: How to show passage of time with generations of humans? How to develop human characters? Bëor, Eöl and Aredhel story, Andreth and Aegnor, lead up to Dagor Bragollach.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
For the passage of time: in Season 5 Episode 11, we throw in a line where Fingolfin says that "Six generations (maybe a half-dozen?) of Men have passed" before bringing up the topic of an assault on Angband? Not quite as poetic as "Full 30 times hath Phoebus' cart gone round".
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think that Rhogrin and Annael should "escape" with their party of escapees early in the season, probably with a hammer donated by Diriel. Originally, I developed a concept of Rhogrin, at the head of the group, reaching a corridor of Orcs and steadily advancing down it, killing any Orc in his path, with Annael sneaking in at the back.

Annael's unwitting treachery should be revealed no later than the Dagor Bragollach, since the practice of subverting Elves to Morgoth's will is well-known by the time of Sauron's conquest of Tol Sirion.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-34: Listener Contributions

Listeners can get involved in many ways: sets/locations, creature design, costume/armor/weapons design, lighting challenges, special effects, props, cartography, art/architecture/sculpture/jewelry, language

Glaurung
Considered: Kathrin’s sketches and Rhiannon’s painting and sculpture
Hosts requested Glaurung be more lizard-like and less snake-like. Their favorite body type was the middle one in Kathirn’s sketch. They liked the horns on Rhiannon’s sculpture but thought the little nose horn might be too cute.

Thuringwethil
Considered: Rhiannon’s painting
Thuringwethil is a shapeshifter. The painting shows Thuringwethil as part human, part beast. She can shift fully into a bat for flying. Not a giant bat, but a little larger than a regular bat. She does not need to obey the law of conservation of mass. Thuringwethil is not sexy and is not Sauron’s girlfriend. Her shapeshifting is a way to portray her character. She has a batcloak of shadow that Lúthien will take instead of skinning Thuringwethil. Lúthien’s cloak could merge with Thuringwethil’s cloak.

Tevildo and Draugluin
Considered: Hakan’s sketch, Rhiannon’s painting, and Marie’s photo manip
The hosts liked the bearded Tevildo. He has to look not like a real cat and look sadistic. Tevildo should be the creepiest of Sauron’s minions. Draugluin can look more like a regular wolf but larger.

Himring
Considered: Nick’s 3D model and Marie’s design
Star fort vs Norman keep. The star fort is like the Star of Fëanor. It is practical and looks imposing with all the towers.

Tol Sirion
Considered: Kathrin’s painting and Octoburn’s 3D model
The hosts liked the city design of the painting and the double drawbridges. The vertical tower was good.

Keep Helevorn
Considered: two of Kathrin’s paintings
The hosts liked the terrain and how it looked both beautiful and defensible.

Vinyamar
Considered: Kathrin’s painting
City up on a promontory. Turgon’s palace looks west and is at the westernmost point of the town. In Gondolin, Turgon’s tower will symbolize his pride.

Gondolin Luxury Apartment
Considered: Nick’s Minecraft model, Rhiannon’s painting
It is very vertical. Everything in Gondolin, even common housing is beautiful and less concerned with defense.

Gates of Nargothrond
Considered: Rhiannon’s sketch, Nick’s Minecraft model
These are attempts to resolve the disparity between Tolkien’s illustrations of Nargothrond and descriptions of its secrecy. The entrance is not visible from the other side of the river or up or downstream. The gates show that Finrod is serious about secrecy but cares about beauty and grandeur. The trees will be cut down when the bridge is made.

Gate of Menegroth
Considered: Nick’s Minecraft model
Nick stages spider attack on Menegroth. Gates are highly fortified on the inside.

Jewelry – Engagement rings for Galadriel and Celeborn
Finrod gives the ring he was going to give to Amarië to Galadriel to give to Celeborn, so it is not specifically designed for Celeborn and should have jewels. How similar should Galadriel’s wedding ring look to Nenya? Leaf ring with Laurelin and Telperion leaves or flowers given to Galadriel by Celeborn as part of healing process.

Frame character design
Considered: Bre’s paintings
Gandalf not identical to film Gandalf, has rough staff. Dwarvs are very broad, not proportioned like humans.

Male and Female Dwarves
Considered: Kathrin’s paintings
Dwarven women should not look like human females with beards but rather like a different race. Bearded women should be a reflection of a different concept of secondary sex characteristics. Maybe only Dwarven men could have mustaches.

Elven costume designs
Considered: Bre’s paintings
Falathrim, Hithlum, and Nargothrond. Hithlum soldiers wear fur because it is cold. Elves wear plate armor.

Galadriel
Considered: Bre’s painting of 3rd age Galadriel and costume evolution
Galadriel’s style of dress changes over time. When in Doriath, she wears clothes like Lúthien and Melian and adopts the cultural norms of the Sindar, dark grays and purples. Her wedding dress can be fancy and she can introduce Noldorin fashions to Doriath.

Season 5
First session March 26. Will take same form as Season 4 podcast discussions.

Questions: How to show passage of time with generations of humans? How to develop human characters? Bëor, Eöl and Aredhel story, Andreth and Aegnor, lead up to Dagor Bragollach.
Something about Tol Sirion: shouldn't it be built over pits of some sort? Is a basement created? There should be a place for Sauron to toss Finrod, Beren, and their companions after Sauron beats Finrod.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Something about Tol Sirion: shouldn't it be built over pits of some sort? Is a basement created? There should be a place for Sauron to toss Finrod, Beren, and their companions after Sauron beats Finrod.
It could be. Or those could be added by the new owners.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
It could be. Or those could be added by the new owners.
I feel like, if the dungeon were added, it would have to be added fairly quickly, since some of the first prisoners will probably be Elves who did not escape Minas Tirith when Sauron took over. Rather than excavating something new on the island, I think it would be easiest to convert an existing space. If Minas Tirith already has a lower level, all Sauron would need to do would be to strip the decorations, reinforce the doors, and brick up or put bars on any windows. I think it would be fine for the dungeon to include some shredded tapestries or smashed Elven furniture. Maybe there could be something with Finrod's device on it or that he recognizes and comments to Beren about how this was once a wonderful space, just to help remind viewers that Minas Tirith once belonged to Finrod.
 

Kathrin

Active Member
I can imagine that there is, especially with the island being that uneven in height, a space inside the rock (if it goes all the way under the water surface I don't know. I don't know if Finrod had that much need for dungeons, but if yes he could certainly build them. But yeah as Rhiannon said it could just be an other existing room. It could be a wine-cellar, a storage room etc., or something more elaborate (an underground bath supplied by the river waters :D, I don't know what other flights of fancy Finrod might be up to)

But it's cool to imagine Minas Tirith being taken over by Sauron (like Minas Morgul later), first only adapted to his purposes, and then slowly transformed into Tol-in-Gauroth when the whole werewolf breeding starts and getting all desolate and decaying. Ohh I'm imagining the fortress all broken down, maybe in some places the rock has collapsed and water is slowly carving out the island. In the end there are just lots of disjointed rocks in the river with ruins on them, the full moon above it, the whole thing crawling with werewolves. Which season do we get to Tol-in-Gauroth already? That's quite a while away but I'm looking forward to it.

Edit: Also there's a fun (somehow reversed) echo to Minas Morgul, because that used to be Minas Ithil, the tower of the moon, right (opposed to the earlier tower of the sun/minas anor/later gondorian minas tirith) , and then got corrupted. So here we have "tower of guard" originally, that then got corrupted into sort of a tower of the moon (werewolves, moon etc). There's already a tendency to juxtapose pairs of towers in lotr, I love how that multiplies with the Silmarillion, but I'm not yet sure of where I can draw those comparisons with meaning, and where a tower sometimes is just a tower.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I can imagine that there is, especially with the island being that uneven in height, a space inside the rock (if it goes all the way under the water surface I don't know. I don't know if Finrod had that much need for dungeons, but if yes he could certainly build them. But yeah as Rhiannon said it could just be an other existing room. It could be a wine-cellar, a storage room etc., or something more elaborate (an underground bath supplied by the river waters :D, I don't know what other flights of fancy Finrod might be up to)

But it's cool to imagine Minas Tirith being taken over by Sauron (like Minas Morgul later), first only adapted to his purposes, and then slowly transformed into Tol-in-Gauroth when the whole werewolf breeding starts and getting all desolate and decaying. Ohh I'm imagining the fortress all broken down, maybe in some places the rock has collapsed and water is slowly carving out the island. In the end there are just lots of disjointed rocks in the river with ruins on them, the full moon above it, the whole thing crawling with werewolves. Which season do we get to Tol-in-Gauroth already? That's quite a while away but I'm looking forward to it.

Edit: Also there's a fun (somehow reversed) echo to Minas Morgul, because that used to be Minas Ithil, the tower of the moon, right (opposed to the earlier tower of the sun/minas anor/later gondorian minas tirith) , and then got corrupted. So here we have "tower of guard" originally, that then got corrupted into sort of a tower of the moon (werewolves, moon etc). There's already a tendency to juxtapose pairs of towers in lotr, I love how that multiplies with the Silmarillion, but I'm not yet sure of where I can draw those comparisons with meaning, and where a tower sometimes is just a tower.
Well we get that with characters as well, and it fits into evil being in imitation or parody. Sauron is the Dark Lord like his master Morgoth, he has a high general who is the leader of a band of nine near-unstoppable killers (The Witch-King/Gothmog), another fallen Maia occupies a command position as the head of a fortress (Saruman commanded Orthanc/Sauron himself was in charge of Angband until Morgoth returned from Valinor and then again with Tol-en-Gaurhoth), another being who serves as another field general (Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul who was a person of indeterminate species/Boldog), a traitor in the midst of a King with a beautiful blonde lady and the traitor lusts for the lady (Grima/Maeglin). If Sauron had recruited Smaug the comparison would have been exact.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
He loved Thingol's hot tub so much...
YES!

Finrod and Sauron can have their song battle while Sauron is in the hot tub

I can imagine that there is, especially with the island being that uneven in height, a space inside the rock (if it goes all the way under the water surface I don't know. I don't know if Finrod had that much need for dungeons, but if yes he could certainly build them. But yeah as Rhiannon said it could just be an other existing room. It could be a wine-cellar, a storage room etc., or something more elaborate (an underground bath supplied by the river waters :D, I don't know what other flights of fancy Finrod might be up to)

But it's cool to imagine Minas Tirith being taken over by Sauron (like Minas Morgul later), first only adapted to his purposes, and then slowly transformed into Tol-in-Gauroth when the whole werewolf breeding starts and getting all desolate and decaying. Ohh I'm imagining the fortress all broken down, maybe in some places the rock has collapsed and water is slowly carving out the island. In the end there are just lots of disjointed rocks in the river with ruins on them, the full moon above it, the whole thing crawling with werewolves. Which season do we get to Tol-in-Gauroth already? That's quite a while away but I'm looking forward to it.

Edit: Also there's a fun (somehow reversed) echo to Minas Morgul, because that used to be Minas Ithil, the tower of the moon, right (opposed to the earlier tower of the sun/minas anor/later gondorian minas tirith) , and then got corrupted. So here we have "tower of guard" originally, that then got corrupted into sort of a tower of the moon (werewolves, moon etc). There's already a tendency to juxtapose pairs of towers in lotr, I love how that multiplies with the Silmarillion, but I'm not yet sure of where I can draw those comparisons with meaning, and where a tower sometimes is just a tower.
I think it’s okay for the tower to be somewhat broken down while Sauron is ruling the island, but we shouldn’t go too far because, when Sauron yields mastery of the tower to Luthien, “Luthien stood upon the bridge and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare.” Or, maybe what Luthien could be undoing is the magic and shoddy repairs Sauron and his minions have used to turn Minas Tirith back into a serviceable base after they destroyed it.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
YES!

Finrod and Sauron can have their song battle while Sauron is in the hot tub


I think it’s okay for the tower to be somewhat broken down while Sauron is ruling the island, but we shouldn’t go too far because, when Sauron yields mastery of the tower to Luthien, “Luthien stood upon the bridge and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare.” Or, maybe what Luthien could be undoing is the magic and shoddy repairs Sauron and his minions have used to turn Minas Tirith back into a serviceable base after they destroyed it.
Suggestion: Perhaps this is when Thuringwethil is killed?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
YES!

Finrod and Sauron can have their song battle while Sauron is in the hot tub


I think it’s okay for the tower to be somewhat broken down while Sauron is ruling the island, but we shouldn’t go too far because, when Sauron yields mastery of the tower to Luthien, “Luthien stood upon the bridge and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare.” Or, maybe what Luthien could be undoing is the magic and shoddy repairs Sauron and his minions have used to turn Minas Tirith back into a serviceable base after they destroyed it.
The writing says that Luthien lays waste to the tower and lays bare the pit dungeons.
 
Top