Session 5-07: Storylines of Men - Hador and Amlach

Here is the 'original' chronology (not original, of course, but compatible with the published Silmarillion, anyway)

FA 310 -- Bëor in Beleriand
FA 355 -- Death of Bëor
FA 369 -- Council
FA 410 -- Boromir as Lord of Ladros
FA 455 -- Dagor Bragollach

The easiest solution is to substitute Hador in not for Malach in the genealogy but for Magor. IE, have Hador born in 341. That puts him in his 20's at the Council (if we don't move the Council). Hador would have Malach's story (mostly), but would be Galdor's great-grandfather.

Obviously, we *are* making changes - not all of the dates from this list can work in our story:

310 Finrod meets Bëor
312 Haladin enter Beleriand
313 People of Marach enter Beleriand
355 Death of Bëor
369 Bereg leads some of the Edain back to the East
375 Haleth becomes chief of the Haladin
376 Haladin settle in Estolad
390 Haladin leave Estolad
410 Boromir of the House of Bëor becomes lord of Ladros in Dorthonion
416 Fingolfin gives Dorlómin to Hador
420 Death of Haleth
432 Birth of Beren
441 Birth of Húrin
443 Birth of Morwen
444 Birth of Huor
455 Dagor Bragollach

So, for instance, either we move the attack on the Stockade forward in time, or we push the Council back until later. Because the Stockade battle is happening before the Council in our version. We are preserving the order in which Tolkien introduced the Houses of the Edain to Beleriand, but not the order of these events.

So, yes, if the Council were held in FA 400, it could result in the House of Hador moving to Dor-lomin prior to the House of Bëor moving to Dorthonion. That's about the latest we could push it back. So, I would say that (as of right now) Hador needs to be born within the range of FA 341-FA 380. And his relationship to Galdor would be either grandfather or great-grandfather. The important points are that....Hador *cannot* be Galdor's father, and the Council *cannot* happen in 416 when Hador is meant to move to Dor-lomin. We are moving Hador's timeline forward. It's just a question of how much.
 
MithLuin said:
Here is the 'original' chronology (not original, of course, but compatible with the published Silmarillion, anyway)

FA 310 -- Bëor in Beleriand
FA 355 -- Death of Bëor
FA 369 -- Council
FA 410 -- Boromir as Lord of Ladros
FA 455 -- Dagor Bragollach

The easiest solution is to substitute Hador in not for Malach in the genealogy but for Magor. IE, have Hador born in 341. That puts him in his 20's at the Council (if we don't move the Council). Hador would have Malach's story (mostly), but would be Galdor's great-grandfather.

Obviously, we *are* making changes - not all of the dates from this list can work in our story:

310 Finrod meets Bëor
312 Haladin enter Beleriand
313 People of Marach enter Beleriand
355 Death of Bëor
369 Bereg leads some of the Edain back to the East
375 Haleth becomes chief of the Haladin
376 Haladin settle in Estolad
390 Haladin leave Estolad
410 Boromir of the House of Bëor becomes lord of Ladros in Dorthonion
416 Fingolfin gives Dorlómin to Hador
420 Death of Haleth
432 Birth of Beren
441 Birth of Húrin
443 Birth of Morwen
444 Birth of Huor
455 Dagor Bragollach

So, for instance, either we move the attack on the Stockade forward in time, or we push the Council back until later. Because the Stockade battle is happening before the Council in our version. We are preserving the order in which Tolkien introduced the Houses of the Edain to Beleriand, but not the order of these events.

So, yes, if the Council were held in FA 400, it could result in the House of Hador moving to Dor-lomin prior to the House of Bëor moving to Dorthonion. That's about the latest we could push it back. So, I would say that (as of right now) Hador needs to be born within the range of FA 341-FA 380. And his relationship to Galdor would be either grandfather or great-grandfather. The important points are that....Hador *cannot* be Galdor's father, and the Council *cannot* happen in 416 when Hador is meant to move to Dor-lomin. We are moving Hador's timeline forward. It's just a question of how much.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm just having trouble seeing *why*.
 
For Hador to move the people to Dor-lomin at the end of the Council, and for Hador to father Galdor, and for Galdor to father Hurin and Huor -- we would be looking at two successive generations of men becoming fathers rather late in life - 40's or 50's. While that can happen, it's a bit unusual, and probably makes the family tree a bit more awkward than we would want it to. Having that happen once is fine; twice looks like we can't do math. So, yes, we would have to move the Council very intentionally to keep that family tree intact.

So, the dates I gave for Hador's birth range from at the earliest 341 and at the latest 380. Let's say he's born in 380 (the extreme latest end of that range). He is now 20 years old when the Council happens in 400 (again, just about the latest for that event).

Hurin is born in 441. Huor is born in 444.

So, if Hador is their grandfather, he is 61 and 64 years old at their births. That can work; he can be in his 30's when Galdor is born, and then Galdor can be in his 30's when his sons are born. Maybe a little older than we might expect in this culture, but not a problem.

But if the Council is any earlier, pushing Hador's birth closer to the 341 end of that range...it just doesn't work. A Hador born in 341 would be 100 years old when Húrin and Huor are born, meaning that both he and Galdor had children at age 50.

So, if it is important to keep Hador as Galdor's father, then it is important to move the Council later. And if we do that, Hador's range is further narrowed down. So that might look like:

310 Finrod meets Bëor
312 Haladin enter Beleriand
313 People of Marach enter Beleriand
355 Death of Bëor
375 Haleth becomes chief of the Haladin
376 Haladin settle in Estolad
390 Haladin leave Estolad
399 Bereg leads some of the Edain back to the East
400 Fingolfin gives Dorlómin to Hador
410 Boromir of the House of Bëor becomes lord of Ladros in Dorthonion
420 Death of Haleth
432 Birth of Beren
441 Birth of Húrin
443 Birth of Morwen
444 Birth of Huor
455 Dagor Bragollach


Now the genealogy looks like:

Hador: 378-450ish
(I have bumped up his children by 5 years, so that he is 33-37 years old when they are born; this will impact the Haladin timeline)

Gloredhel: 410-472
Galdor: 412-462
Gundor: 414-455

And then Húrin and Huor are as expected, with Galdor being 29 and 32 years old when they are born. Keep in mind that Gloredhel, who is Galdor's older sister, 'has' to get married to Haldir in a double wedding with her brother. So, if we are delaying Galdor having kids, we're potentially having her get married rather late in life. That's why I 'split the difference' of the extra 10 years between both generations. Because we could have Hador be 27 when he starts having kids, but then Galdor will be 34 and Gloredhel 36.

Húrin: 441-502
Huor: 444-473

1592797410838.png

Do people think this will work?

Note that Hador would be 78 if he lived until the Dagor Bragollach, so he's still too old to fight there. Yes, sure, there are plenty of men who can continue martial arts into their 80's... but not actual combat. We will likely want him to die prior to the battle. His death might be where we are introduced to the children Húrin and Huor, and when Galdor decides to send them to Brethil. And Hador is only 21 at the FA 399 Council in this version, so we really can't make him any younger there.
 
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Ok, so this is approximately what I was thinking: (I'm not using the absolute dates, but time before the Dagor Bragollach as a reference point)

455 (0 BDB) Dagor Bragollach

18 BDB Birth of Hurin (Hador 62, Galdor 32, Gloredhel 27)

20 BDB Beren born (Barahir 28)

22 BDB Galdor and Gloredhel married (Hador 58, Galdor 28, Gloredhel 23)

45 BDB Gloredhel born (Hador 35, Galdor 5)

48 BDB Barahir born

50 BDB Birth of Galdor (Hador 30)

52 BDB Bregolas/Boromir born

55 BDB Council of Amlach

70 BDB House of Beor moves to Dorthonion

75 BDB Beor dies.


80 BDB Hador born

95 BDB Beleg born

100 BDB Amlach born

100 BDB Estolad established

115 BDB House of Beor moves to Nargothrond
 
One issue with the above is that it makes it harder to compress the House of Haleth. I know it's weird, because they are so isolated that it might seem we could place them whenever. But, realistically....we have Haleth's story, and then we have 'why Húrin and Huor are in Brethil.' Now, I know we don't get the payoff for that until Season 7, but we likely do want to set it up, at least. Meaning...that we need for their mom to be from the House of Haleth. This doesn't *necessarily* mean we need to keep the double wedding, or explain anything that has been going on in Brethil between Haleth's arrival in Brethil and that wedding. But here is what their timeline looks like if the Stockade battle is in 375 (which is 80 years before the Dagor Bragollach, for reference). It's that weirdly awkward thing where if you skip a generation, the dad is in his 40's when kids are born (which is doable), but if you split it into 2 generations, the dads are now 19-20 years old. So, you can maybe lose *one* generation here, but not more than that. [Again - IF the Stockade battle is kept in FA 375]

1592800415581.png
 
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Okay, I have added the FA years to your list.


455 (0 BDB) Dagor Bragollach

437 (18 BDB) Birth of Hurin (Hador 62, Galdor 32, Gloredhel 27)

435 (20 BDB) Beren born (Barahir 28)

433 (22 BDB) Galdor and Gloredhel married (Hador 58, Galdor 28, Gloredhel 23)

410 (45 BDB) Gloredhel born (Hador 35, Galdor 5)

407 (48 BDB) Barahir born

405 (50 BDB) Birth of Galdor (Hador 30)

403 (52 BDB) Bregolas/BoromirBregor born

400 (55 BDB) Council of Amlach

385 (70 BDB) House of Beor moves to Dorthonion

380 (75 BDB) Beor dies.

375 (80 BDB) Hador born

360 (95 BDB) BelegBereg born

355 (100 BDB) Amlach born

355 (100 BDB) Estolad established

340 (115 BDB) House of Beor moves to Nargothrond



The only event on that list I am going to flag as unable to occur when listed is the move to Dorthonion. Currently, we are requested to make that happen AFTER the Council; you have it listed 15 years before. The reasoning being that, after Hador moves his people to Dor-lomin, the House of Bëor gets the idea to do something similar. They are getting the idea from the House of Hador. Now, if you have a reason for wanting this to happen earlier/first, then I would suggest making a case for that on the other thread, since we are scheduled to discuss Andreth's storyline next session.
 
So for one, yes, I think a more compelling story can be told of the Beorians if Beor is dead and they've migrated to Dorthonion before the Council and I'll be making an attempt to convince the hosts of the validity of this. I think that making all of the negative voices at the Council those of the House of Hador and none of the House of Beor makes the Beorians less interesting.

Now, I've avoided using absolute dates specifically, because the time between these events and the Dagor Bragollach is much more important for our purposes than the time between them and the rising of the sun.

I added the Haladin to the mix to see what would happen. With the caveat that adjustments would have to be made if there is no bending on the move to Dorthonion's relation to the Council, does this work? I've included the relative ages of some of the characters as well.

455 (0 BDB) Dagor Bragollach

18 BDB Birth of Hurin (Hador 62, Galdor 32, Gloredhel 27, Hareth 25, Haldir 29)

20 BDB Beren born (Barahir 28)

22 BDB Galdor-Hareth and Gloredhel married (Hador 58, Galdor 28, Hareth 21, Gloredhel 23, Haldir 25)

45 BDB Gloredhel born (Hador 35, Galdor 5)

47 BDB Haldir born (Haleth 38)

48 BDB Barahir born

50 BDB Birth of Galdor (Hador 30)

52 BDB Bregolas/Boromir born

55 BDB Council of Amlach

65 BDB Battle of Gelion-Ascar Stockade, Haldad and Haldar (30) killed, Haladin migrate to Brethil

70 BDB House of Beor moves to Dorthonion

75 BDB Beor dies.

80 BDB Hador born

85 BDB Haleth born

95 BDB Haldar born

95 BDB Bereg born

100 BDB Amlach born

100 BDB Estolad established

115 BDB House of Beor moves to Nargothrond
 
Also, I'd just like to point out that the audience doesn't have to know any of these dates. They also aren't going to know how old adult characters are beyond certain restrictions. Characters with adult children have to appear to be old enough to have adult children, but the audience doesn't have to know whether the characters are 45 or 60, for example. The audience isn't going to know the absolute ages of our characters or how much time has passed precisely unless we tell them.
 
I agree that the audience doesn't need to know the dates - they'll just get introduced to people, and figure out their relative place in the story. If we're not jumping forward/backward in time, there will be little reason to flash 'First Age 400' up on the screen during a scene (I mean, I know we've made jokes about that, but the intention is not to do that). I certainly understand why it's helpful to consider the dates as a countdown to the Dagor Bragollach (the fixed endpoint of the Season). I included the years so that your list could be easily compared to other timetables without someone stopping to recalculate everything.

We need to know, simply on the basis of keeping our story happening in a reasonable way. Knowing how old Bëor is when he dies and when he dies is important for bookkeeping purposes.

I doubt the Hosts will go for having the Death of Bëor and move to Dorthonion happen prior to the Stockade battle and Council. But obviously you're welcome to pitch the idea. It will be relevant to how old then envision Andreth being at the Dagor Bragollach, among other things. Also, I think the Hosts are envisioning *all* voices at the Council being House of Hador in origin, so they're not too concerned with making any of the voices (pro or con) into Bëorean voices.

Also, I take if from this that you are suggesting that, rather than being twins, Haleth is 10 years younger than her brother. So that at the stockade battle, he is a 30-year-old with a child, and she's 20. And that, 18 years later, her older brother's child is having children? The Hosts seemed very comfortable with having Haleth be an early Season character, one who has died off (or whose story has concluded, at any rate) by the mid-season point. Having Haleth as the 'baby' of her family doesn't really fit her character for me, but I acknowledge that it would be something for her to be fighting against from the start. I'm more concerned with losing her status in her community as an 'old maid' (or what would be a 'confirmed bachelor' if she were a guy) by making her 20 when she is thrust into the leadership position. How important is it to people that she have a twin brother who dies, rather than an older brother who dies?
 
MithLuin said:
I agree that the audience doesn't need to know the dates - they'll just get introduced to people, and figure out their relative place in the story. If we're not jumping forward/backward in time, there will be little reason to flash 'First Age 400' up on the screen during a scene (I mean, I know we've made jokes about that, but the intention is not to do that). I certainly understand why it's helpful to consider the dates as a countdown to the Dagor Bragollach (the fixed endpoint of the Season). I included the years so that your list could be easily compared to other timetables without someone stopping to recalculate everything.

We need to know, simply on the basis of keeping our story happening in a reasonable way. Knowing how old Bëor is when he dies and when he dies is important for bookkeeping purposes.

I doubt the Hosts will go for having the Death of Bëor and move to Dorthonion happen prior to the Stockade battle and Council. But obviously you're welcome to pitch the idea. It will be relevant to how old then envision Andreth being at the Dagor Bragollach, among other things. Also, I think the Hosts are envisioning *all* voices at the Council being House of Hador in origin, so they're not too concerned with making any of the voices (pro or con) into Bëorean voices.

Also, I take if from this that you are suggesting that, rather than being twins, Haleth is 10 years younger than her brother. So that at the stockade battle, he is a 30-year-old with a child, and she's 20. And that, 18 years later, her older brother's child is having children? The Hosts seemed very comfortable with having Haleth be an early Season character, one who has died off (or whose story has concluded, at any rate) by the mid-season point. Having Haleth as the 'baby' of her family doesn't really fit her character for me, but I acknowledge that it would be something for her to be fighting against from the start. I'm more concerned with losing her status in her community as an 'old maid' (or what would be a 'confirmed bachelor' if she were a guy) by making her 20 when she is thrust into the leadership position. How important is it to people that she have a twin brother who dies, rather than an older brother who dies?
Click to expand...
Is there any narrative purpose in making her and her brother 10 years apart?
 
MithLuin said:
I agree that the audience doesn't need to know the dates - they'll just get introduced to people, and figure out their relative place in the story. If we're not jumping forward/backward in time, there will be little reason to flash 'First Age 400' up on the screen during a scene (I mean, I know we've made jokes about that, but the intention is not to do that). I certainly understand why it's helpful to consider the dates as a countdown to the Dagor Bragollach (the fixed endpoint of the Season). I included the years so that your list could be easily compared to other timetables without someone stopping to recalculate everything.

We need to know, simply on the basis of keeping our story happening in a reasonable way. Knowing how old Bëor is when he dies and when he dies is important for bookkeeping purposes.

I doubt the Hosts will go for having the Death of Bëor and move to Dorthonion happen prior to the Stockade battle and Council. But obviously you're welcome to pitch the idea. It will be relevant to how old then envision Andreth being at the Dagor Bragollach, among other things. Also, I think the Hosts are envisioning *all* voices at the Council being House of Hador in origin, so they're not too concerned with making any of the voices (pro or con) into Bëorean voices.

Also, I take if from this that you are suggesting that, rather than being twins, Haleth is 10 years younger than her brother. So that at the stockade battle, he is a 30-year-old with a child, and she's 20. And that, 18 years later, her older brother's child is having children? The Hosts seemed very comfortable with having Haleth be an early Season character, one who has died off (or whose story has concluded, at any rate) by the mid-season point. Having Haleth as the 'baby' of her family doesn't really fit her character for me, but I acknowledge that it would be something for her to be fighting against from the start. I'm more concerned with losing her status in her community as an 'old maid' (or what would be a 'confirmed bachelor' if she were a guy) by making her 20 when she is thrust into the leadership position. How important is it to people that she have a twin brother who dies, rather than an older brother who dies?
Click to expand...

My placing of Haleth's birth was an experiment. The distance of her connection to Haldir is somewhat less important than that of say, Hador to Hurin. The audience should be able to draw a direct line between those two based on the interactions of characters, rather than merely being told.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Is there any narrative purpose in making her and her brother 10 years apart?
Click to expand...

That was done to address the issue of making Hareth sister old enough to marry Galdor, but if we move the birth of Haleth and Haldar back a to 100 BDBish, we can add an additional generation and everything can work. I think.
 
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