Session 5-08: Storylines of Men - Andreth and Barahir

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I can roll with that.

On other notes: what about Andreth attracts Aegnor? She’s obviously someone of importance as a wise woman, but what else about her?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I have some concerns about Andreth and Aegnor's love story take place after the House of Beor moves to Dorthonion. Most significantly, we would not be able to use the beautiful dialogue at the end of the Athrabeth:
Darkness fell in the room. He took her hand in the light of the fire. 'Whither go you?' she said.

'North away,' he said: 'to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defense—that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes.'

'Will he be there, bright and tall, and the wind in his hair? Tell him. Tell him not to be reckless. Not to seek danger beyond need!'

'I will tell him,' said Finrod. 'But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior, Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt.
It wouldn't make sense for Finrod to be going north to help with the siege if Andreth and all her people are already there. It wouldn't make sense for Andreth to be worrying about Aegnor's safety like that if she and her people are already doing the same thing.

Also, I think having Andreth in favor of moving away from the Elves in Nargothrond then fall in love with an Elf then have a deep and meaningful conversation with Finrod about the differences between Elves and Men adds an unnecessary wrinkle to the story. Why not have Andreth in favor of moving to the front lines and away from the Elves after her conversation with Finrod?

This would make more sense because Andreth would be a respected wise-woman when she proposes her house relocate, not a wise-woman-in-training, and Andreth's love for Aegnor would not seem like a contradiction to her previous values. I don't want Andreth to perceive problems with her house living among the Elves then be "blinded by love" and hypocritically want to marry Aegnor.

Having the House of Beor's move after the Athrabeth would likely allow us to reduce the total amount of screentime the House of Beor gets or focus more on our main characters. The House of Beor's dissatisfaction with living among the Elves could happen concurrently with Andreth and Aegnor falling in love, and we could economize by having scenes that show both at the same time.

There would also be a more immediate relevance to the differences between Elves and Men that Andreth and Finrod discuss. Andreth could begin encouraging her house to move after the Athrabeth, or she could be encouraging them to move before the Athrabeth because she thinks the Elves are looking down on Men, but she would come away from the Athrabeth with a more nuanced understanding of why Men and Elves should not live together.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I have some concerns about Andreth and Aegnor's love story take place after the House of Beor moves to Dorthonion. Most significantly, we would not be able to use the beautiful dialogue at the end of the Athrabeth:


It wouldn't make sense for Finrod to be going north to help with the siege if Andreth and all her people are already there. It wouldn't make sense for Andreth to be worrying about Aegnor's safety like that if she and her people are already doing the same thing.

Also, I think having Andreth in favor of moving away from the Elves in Nargothrond then fall in love with an Elf then have a deep and meaningful conversation with Finrod about the differences between Elves and Men adds an unnecessary wrinkle to the story. Why not have Andreth in favor of moving to the front lines and away from the Elves after her conversation with Finrod?

This would make more sense because Andreth would be a respected wise-woman when she proposes her house relocate, not a wise-woman-in-training, and Andreth's love for Aegnor would not seem like a contradiction to her previous values. I don't want Andreth to perceive problems with her house living among the Elves then be "blinded by love" and hypocritically want to marry Aegnor.

Having the House of Beor's move after the Athrabeth would likely allow us to reduce the total amount of screentime the House of Beor gets or focus more on our main characters. The House of Beor's dissatisfaction with living among the Elves could happen concurrently with Andreth and Aegnor falling in love, and we could economize by having scenes that show both at the same time.

There would also be a more immediate relevance to the differences between Elves and Men that Andreth and Finrod discuss. Andreth could begin encouraging her house to move after the Athrabeth, or she could be encouraging them to move before the Athrabeth because she thinks the Elves are looking down on Men, but she would come away from the Athrabeth with a more nuanced understanding of why Men and Elves should not live together.
This would require a heavy emphasis on the Beorians through most of the season, with the Hadorians' arrival feeling like it only just happened by the time the Dagor Bragollach takes place a few episodes later. Basically we'd have to have the introduction of Beor, show the adjustment of the humans to living in Nargothrond, then the entire Haleth arc, then Beor would finally be the first person the Elves ever see die of old age or the Beorians will have to have been living there in Nargothrond without him for quite a long time, then we'd have to have an entire episode where Angrod is in Nargothrond, then years later the conversation between Finrod and Andreth, and finally the Beorians moving to Dorthonion. That's a lot of material that we don't need to have. If we had an additional season to work with, that'd be fine. Alas, we do not, and must make good use of the time we have. This will require some shifting around, and I don't think we should sacrifice good story-telling to include the dialogue as written. Dorthonion is pretty spacious, so we need not have the farming settlements of the Beorians parked right on the edge of Ard-Galen, whereas Angrod's fortifications likely are. It also makes it easier for her to have contact with Angrod if it is not merely on sporadic visits to Nargothrond.

The conversation can take place as written as long as the settlement in which Andreth lives looks safe to the eyes of the viewer. Additionally, Andreth doesn't have to think that all of her people should live amongst the Elves to fall in love with Angrod. In fact, it makes their relationship all the more interesting.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
This would require a heavy emphasis on the Beorians through most of the season, with the Hadorians' arrival feeling like it only just happened by the time the Dagor Bragollach takes place a few episodes later. Basically we'd have to have the introduction of Beor, show the adjustment of the humans to living in Nargothrond, then the entire Haleth arc, then Beor would finally be the first person the Elves ever see die of old age or the Beorians will have to have been living there in Nargothrond without him for quite a long time, then we'd have to have an entire episode where Angrod is in Nargothrond, then years later the conversation between Finrod and Andreth, and finally the Beorians moving to Dorthonion. That's a lot of material that we don't need to have. If we had an additional season to work with, that'd be fine. Alas, we do not, and must make good use of the time we have. This will require some shifting around, and I don't think we should sacrifice good story-telling to include the dialogue as written. Dorthonion is pretty spacious, so we need not have the farming settlements of the Beorians parked right on the edge of Ard-Galen, whereas Angrod's fortifications likely are. It also makes it easier for her to have contact with Angrod if it is not merely on sporadic visits to Nargothrond.

The conversation can take place as written as long as the settlement in which Andreth lives looks safe to the eyes of the viewer. Additionally, Andreth doesn't have to think that all of her people should live amongst the Elves to fall in love with Angrod. In fact, it makes their relationship all the more interesting.
I think you mean Aegnor. It is Aegnor who Andreth falls in love with, not Angrod.

I don't see how anything I said necessitates that episode timeline you suggested or creates more material for the House of Beor. In fact, I see it as doing the opposite. Could you please explain how you arrived at that conclusion?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think you mean Aegnor. It is Aegnor who Andreth falls in love with, not Angrod.

I don't see how anything I said necessitates that episode timeline you suggested or creates more material for the House of Beor. In fact, I see it as doing the opposite. Could you please explain how you arrived at that conclusion?
Yes, that is indeed what I meant.

As I have laid out all of the events that would have to happen before the Beorians could move in your version of events, I'm not sure I understand the question. Perhaps you could explain which events would not have to happen while they are in Nargothrond?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is indeed what I meant.

As I have laid out all of the events that would have to happen before the Beorians could move in your version of events, I'm not sure I understand the question. Perhaps you could explain which events would not have to happen while they are in Nargothrond?
Perhaps I was not as clear as I mean to be in my suggestion. Let me try laying it out this way:

Order of events as it seems to me the hosts currently envision them:
  1. House of Beor arrives in Beleriand.
  2. House of Beor moves to Nargothrond.
  3. Other houses arrive.
  4. Beor dies.
  5. Battle of the stockade; Haleth becomes leader of her people.
  6. Council with fake Amlach; Bereg goes east; House of Hador moves to Dor-lomin.
  7. More Haleth story.
  8. Young Andreth convinces the House of Beor to move out of Nargothrond.
  9. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor.
  10. Athrabeth.
What I am trying to suggest:
  1. House of Beor arrives in Beleriand.
  2. House of Beor moves to Nargothrond.
  3. Other houses arrive.
  4. Beor dies.
  5. Battle of the stockade; Haleth becomes leader of her people.
  6. Council with fake Amlach; Bereg goes east; House of Hador moves to Dor-lomin.
  7. More Haleth story.
  8. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor.
  9. Athrabeth; Andreth convinces the House of Beor to move out of Nargothrond.
What you seem to be suggesting:
  1. House of Beor arrives in Beleriand.
  2. House of Beor moves to Nargothrond.
  3. Other houses arrive.
  4. Battle of the stockade; Haleth becomes leader of her people.
  5. More Haleth story.
  6. Beor dies.
  7. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor.
  8. Athrabeth; Andreth convinces the House of Beor to move out of Nargothrond.
  9. Council with fake Amlach; Bereg goes east; House of Hador moves to Dor-lomin.
I'm confused as to why you think the Council can't happen in between or concurrently with the stories of the House of Beor and why you think the death of Beor has to happen after all of Haleth's story. I didn't mention either of those in my suggestion about the Athrabeth taking place before the House of Beor relocates.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Perhaps I was not as clear as I mean to be in my suggestion. Let me try laying it out this way:

Order of events as it seems to me the hosts currently envision them:
  1. House of Beor arrives in Beleriand.
  2. House of Beor moves to Nargothrond.
  3. Other houses arrive.
  4. Beor dies.
  5. Battle of the stockade; Haleth becomes leader of her people.
  6. Council with fake Amlach; Bereg goes east; House of Hador moves to Dor-lomin.
  7. More Haleth story.
  8. Young Andreth convinces the House of Beor to move out of Nargothrond.
  9. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor.
  10. Athrabeth.
What I am trying to suggest:
  1. House of Beor arrives in Beleriand.
  2. House of Beor moves to Nargothrond.
  3. Other houses arrive.
  4. Beor dies.
  5. Battle of the stockade; Haleth becomes leader of her people.
  6. Council with fake Amlach; Bereg goes east; House of Hador moves to Dor-lomin.
  7. More Haleth story.
  8. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor.
  9. Athrabeth; Andreth convinces the House of Beor to move out of Nargothrond.
What you seem to be suggesting:
  1. House of Beor arrives in Beleriand.
  2. House of Beor moves to Nargothrond.
  3. Other houses arrive.
  4. Battle of the stockade; Haleth becomes leader of her people.
  5. More Haleth story.
  6. Beor dies.
  7. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor.
  8. Athrabeth; Andreth convinces the House of Beor to move out of Nargothrond.
  9. Council with fake Amlach; Bereg goes east; House of Hador moves to Dor-lomin.
I'm confused as to why you think the Council can't happen in between or concurrently with the stories of the House of Beor and why you think the death of Beor has to happen after all of Haleth's story. I didn't mention either of those in my suggestion about the Athrabeth taking place before the House of Beor relocates.

Ah, I can at least fix the misconception of what I'm suggesting here.

1. Beor arrives.
2. Beorians move to Nargothrond.
3. Faction of Beorians become dissatisfied and Beor on his deathbed convinces Finrod that his people can't stay there.
4. Beorians leave for Dorthonion.
5. Haleth story
6. Estolad established, Hador goes North and has adventures.
7. Andreth and Aegnor meet and fall in love now that they actually live in the same country. Bereg contingent is now even more dissatisfied (at this point, nothing the Elves do is taken well).
8. More Haleth.
9. Council of Amlach
10. Hadorians move to Dor-Lomin
11. Finrod-Andreth conversation.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
You may note that in the timeline I've proposed, Beor dies 10 years before the battle of the stockade.The longer Beor lives, the more incredulous I am that he is the first person the Elves see dying of old age. Also, having him die a couple of episodes in touches on the suggestion of ... I think it was @amysrevenge ... that we illustrate just how quickly the humans pop in and out of the Elves' lives.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
You may note that in the timeline I've proposed, Beor dies 10 years before the battle of the stockade.The longer Beor lives, the more incredulous I am that he is the first person the Elves see dying of old age. Also, having him die a couple of episodes in touches on the suggestion of ... I think it was @amysrevenge ... that we illustrate just how quickly the humans pop in and out of the Elves' lives.
It was @amysrevenge's idea, albeit with a more comedic edge by having Elves occasionally confuse Men with deceased ancestors.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ah, I can at least fix the misconception of what I'm suggesting here.

1. Beor arrives.
2. Beorians move to Nargothrond.
3. Faction of Beorians become dissatisfied and Beor on his deathbed convinces Finrod that his people can't stay there.
4. Beorians leave for Dorthonion.
5. Haleth story
6. Estolad established, Hador goes North and has adventures.
7. Andreth and Aegnor meet and fall in love now that they actually live in the same country. Bereg contingent is now even more dissatisfied (at this point, nothing the Elves do is taken well).
8. More Haleth.
9. Council of Amlach
10. Hadorians move to Dor-Lomin
11. Finrod-Andreth conversation.
What goes under the "More Haleth"?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Ah, I can at least fix the misconception of what I'm suggesting here.

1. Beor arrives.
2. Beorians move to Nargothrond.
3. Faction of Beorians become dissatisfied and Beor on his deathbed convinces Finrod that his people can't stay there.
4. Beorians leave for Dorthonion.
5. Haleth story
6. Estolad established, Hador goes North and has adventures.
7. Andreth and Aegnor meet and fall in love now that they actually live in the same country. Bereg contingent is now even more dissatisfied (at this point, nothing the Elves do is taken well).
8. More Haleth.
9. Council of Amlach
10. Hadorians move to Dor-Lomin
11. Finrod-Andreth conversation.
I understand that this timeline is what you would like to have, but that is not what you said here would happen as a result of the move to Dorthonion taking place after the Athrabeth:
This would require a heavy emphasis on the Beorians through most of the season, with the Hadorians' arrival feeling like it only just happened by the time the Dagor Bragollach takes place a few episodes later. Basically we'd have to have the introduction of Beor, show the adjustment of the humans to living in Nargothrond, then the entire Haleth arc, then Beor would finally be the first person the Elves ever see die of old age or the Beorians will have to have been living there in Nargothrond without him for quite a long time, then we'd have to have an entire episode where Angrod is in Nargothrond, then years later the conversation between Finrod and Andreth, and finally the Beorians moving to Dorthonion. That's a lot of material that we don't need to have. If we had an additional season to work with, that'd be fine. Alas, we do not, and must make good use of the time we have. This will require some shifting around, and I don't think we should sacrifice good story-telling to include the dialogue as written. Dorthonion is pretty spacious, so we need not have the farming settlements of the Beorians parked right on the edge of Ard-Galen, whereas Angrod's fortifications likely are. It also makes it easier for her to have contact with Angrod if it is not merely on sporadic visits to Nargothrond.

The conversation can take place as written as long as the settlement in which Andreth lives looks safe to the eyes of the viewer. Additionally, Andreth doesn't have to think that all of her people should live amongst the Elves to fall in love with Angrod. In fact, it makes their relationship all the more interesting.
I'm just confused as to why you think my suggestion creates a heavier emphasis on the House of Beor than there already was.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think we should start putting this into a Gantt chart format to figure this out on an episode-by-episode basis, provided we have some idea of the Elven storylines (ie Aredhel).
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I understand that this timeline is what you would like to have, but that is not what you said here would happen as a result of the move to Dorthonion taking place after the Athrabeth:

I'm just confused as to why you think my suggestion creates a heavier emphasis on the House of Beor than there already was.
I think we're just talking past each other a bit. My biggest concern with the order of events you have suggested is that it A) has the Beorians living in Nargothrond for a long while after Beor's death, B) makes Bereg as a Beorian at the council of Amlach very difficult as the Beorians would have to get the invite while in Nargothrond, then circumvent Doriath to get to Estolad, C) makes Aegnor's meeting and falling in love with Andreth a bit more difficult to maneuver. He'd have to leave his post long enough and/or often enough to be spending time with Andreth in Nargothrond.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think we're just talking past each other a bit. My biggest concern with the order of events you have suggested is that it A) has the Beorians living in Nargothrond for a long while after Beor's death, B) makes Bereg as a Beorian at the council of Amlach very difficult as the Beorians would have to get the invite while in Nargothrond, then circumvent Doriath to get to Estolad, C) makes Aegnor's meeting and falling in love with Andreth a bit more difficult to maneuver. He'd have to leave his post long enough and/or often enough to be spending time with Andreth in Nargothrond.
Well Aegnor doesn't have to be manning Dorthonion all the time right? He could be on his day off (so to speak) while Angrod holds it when he goes to Nargothrond and meets Andreth.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Having Finrod's brother visit Nargothrond is certainly doable, and we know that elves 'visit' for months or years at a time. Certainly long enough for Andreth to have a teen romance with the visiting brother of the lord of Nargothrond. However....if we're talking about keeping text from the Athrabeth...we really don't want their romance to be in Nargothrond. We want it to be on the side of a lake. :p

I do think we should give some real thought to what Andreth's story is going to be and what type of person she is. The middle-aged woman depicted in the Athrabeth is disillusioned and bitter. She's wise, but she's not happy. Finrod's talk with her is meant to give her some peace/closure for a wound that has been festering for decades now -- Aegnor left her, and she never knew why.

I don't think she should start out that way. The bitterness of her middle-aged years should be earned by the fallout with Aegnor. She can start out a bit more enthusiastic, idealistic, etc. And, as an older woman, she can move past both the enthusiasm of her youth and the bitterness of her middle-aged years to reach a level of acceptance that passes for more traditional forms of wisdom. So, what's the constant? Beyond 'wise-woman', I think that Andreth is a woman of passion. She is driven, and throws herself completely into all that she does. Naturally, this leads to some disappointments in life, but she is not someone who is going to look back and think, oh, I wish I had taken that risk or tried harder or done more - because she did live to the fullest, and she did give it her all. Her regrets are not the regrets of the timid.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
@Rhiannon, looking at your timeline on the Notes, what is the relation between Hareth and Haldan?
I added an unnamed generation between them when I shifted the battle of the stockade back 15 years. Haldan is Hareth's great-grandfather rather than her grandfather. Sorry, I forgot to move up the little lines connecting them on the chart.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Also, could we please finalize how we want Andreth and Barahir to be related? I know that there's ideas like keeping the original (which also involves keeping Bregolas, the leader of the House who is KIA in the Dagor Bragollach) and having Andreth be Barahir's elder sister (Bregolas would be adapted out and Bregor the archer would be Barahir's elder brother). Baragund and Belegund are Barahir's nephews and each is the father of Morwen and Rían. My impulse would be to keep the family tree as is, with a line that Bregor's bow is passed down (it survives all the way to the Downfall of Numenor, no mean feat), but I know that the Hosts expect us to remove some portion to cut down on characters. We'll also have to put in a reason why Barahir is put in charge of the family when his brother is killed, instead of Bregolas' sons.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
As tonight's session no doubt made clear, Corey Olsen is less concerned by what the relationship looks like on paper (ie, the family tree), and much more focused on what the relationship between the characters is (story-wise).

So, Andreth is older than Barahir and a mentor figure to him. He is only a young child when they leave Nargothrond, and spends his formative years in Dorthonion. Whether she is his aunt or his older sister isn't going to be the key detail.

If Bregor and/or Bregolas appear in our version of the story, they will do so as very minor characters. The focus is on Andreth and Barahir.

My current suggestion of the family tree is this:



...with the understanding that Bereg being of the House of Bëor has been vetoed, and Boromir playing any role at all in the story has not really been adopted yet.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-04: Storylines of Men pt. 4

The House of Beor in Nargothrond


While the House of Beor is living in Nargothrond, Men will have an easy lifestyle and little that they can contribute to Elvish society, which will lead to laziness and discontent. Elves may also see Men as inferior, although we do not want to go to far with this.

Human artisans will rarely become as skilled as Elvish artisans because of their shorter lives, and Elvish artisans will not need apprentices because they do not expect to die. The Elves could notice that Men are dying too quickly to learn complicated skills and are becoming frustrated, so the Men would be reassigned to menial tasks that they could learn relatively quickly, which would lead to Men becoming an unskilled labor force.

However, there would be some things that Men would be good at. They could invent labor-saving devices (perhaps the lathe or an improved loom). This would convey the urgency which underlies mortal life, but Elves may see such devices as crude because they do not understand the desire to accomplish tasks quickly. The House of Beor may also develop a written culture. While Elves would be primarily an oral culture and write songs and poems about their history as works of art, Men would tend to just chronicle events to pass knowledge on to future generations.

The generations that grow up in Nargothrond would have no concept of the struggles of living in the wilderness. With little to do, restless young Men may begin to vandalize things or otherwise get into trouble. To the Elves, this would seem like ingratitude or possibly the influence of Morgoth.

Beor begins to see the direction this is going and is uneasy, but he is not as wise as Andreth and does not see it fully. Plus, the move to Nargothrond was his initiative. On his deathbed, he recognizes that there are some problems and unhappiness growing among his people, but he trusts in Finrod to work them out. Beor is kind of like Ingwë as a leader, and he would want his people to appreciate what they have.

Andreth

Andreth will be the focal point of Season 5, which is going to be an interesting season because it takes place during the Long Peace and thus will not have a lot of action until the Dagor Bragollach at the end. Conflict will arise largely from differences between the viewpoints of Men and Elves. Finrod and Andreth’s relationship will be dynamic, and issues discussed in the Athrabeth can be brought up at various points in the season.

Andreth will not be a warrior or a military leader; she will be important because of her wisdom, which will earn her the respect of military leaders like Barahir. While Andreth and Aegnor's romance is interesting and unique in that a male Elf and a female human fall in love, the romance storyline should not undermine Andreth’s character, and we should not appear to introduce Andreth solely to be Aegnor’s love interest.

When she is young, Andreth will be greatly respected by her people for her wisdom and essentially be their leader. She will initiate the move to Dorthonion and convince Finrod that it is the wisest thing to do. Finrod will have been trying to figure out how to fix the relationship between Men and Elves in Nargothrond, but Andreth will come to him and tell him that it will not work and the House of Beor needs to leave. She will point out that there are three potential trajectories for her people if they remain in Nargothrond: mindless thralls of the Elves, pets of the Elves, or rebelling against the Elves.

Bereg should be from the House of Hador in Estolad not the House of Beor because it would weaken Andreth's character if a large part of the House of Beor has already left when she proposes the move to Dorthonion.

Timeline

The House of Beor meets Finrod in 310 and should be settled in Nargothrond by around 320. Those who were not born in Nargothrond are part of the first generation. Their children born in Nargothrond are the second generation. Andreth will be part of the third generation of the House of Beor that appears this season. By the time Andreth is an adult, the first generation is mostly gone, but she will have access to their written records. Andreth will be able to observe the cultural shift and growing discontent across the generations to predict the cultural trajectories of her house.

Barahir

When the House of Beor leaves Nargothrond, Andreth will recognize that she is not the right person to be their leader; they need a warrior instead.

@MithLuin pretty much covered everything else that was said about Barahir in the previous post in this thread.
 
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