Session 5-08: Storylines of Men - Andreth and Barahir
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Elves in Valinor have writing. That's not the issue. The point is that Elves create historical records as an art form, not so they won't forget. The motivation in creating written records and the forms they take are going to differ between Elves and Men, and we can draw attention to that. Elves rely on living memory to recall events, which is not quite the same thing as oral tradition. But elves absolutely do create written records of events and did so before they met Men. The difference is in the utilitarian nature of record keeping among Men vs in the artistic approach to crafting an epic or lay that the elves gravitate towards.
To draw attention to the brevity of human experiential memory - many people are calling the pandemic we are currently living through 'unprecedented'. 100 years ago, we lived through a very similar pandemic (Spanish flu was a respiratory infection as well). In just a century, we have lost everyone who has living memory of that event, so we know of it only via historical or academic records at this point.
A few comments regarding the Timeline:
I am not sure that the 310 date for Bëor is fixed. We did decide that Bëor would die before Andreth is born, and we want Andreth to be the third generation in Nargothrond. But I think it was very clear last night that Corey Olsen was frustrated to be presented with an uncompressed timeline. He wants the timeline compressed. So, in the end, we may move Bëor up a bit to help accommodate that.
Here is how I am currently viewing the Season 5 timeline for the Edain.
Fixed dates:
Dagor Bragollach - FA 455
Huor born - FA 444
Húrin born - FA 441
Beren born - FA 432
Relative dates:
Settled in Nargothrond - 10 years after Finrod meets Bëor
Death of Bëor - 45 years after meeting Finrod
Birth of Andreth - roughly 60 years (3 generations) after Finrod meets Bëor
Constraint - Birth of Barahir: less than 20 years after birth of Andreth, less than 50 years before Dagor Bragollach, happens before they depart Nargothrond
So, if the earliest Barahir can be born is FA 405, then working backwards we get:
Birth of Andreth in FA 385-390
Death of Bëor in FA 365
Meeting of Bëor and Finrod in FA 320
I'm not saying that we *can't* have Bëor and Finrod meet in FA 310. I am merely pointing out that we might not.
Order of events:
Now, to attach years and ages to that list:
A comment on Bregor/Bregolas: We are going to have to decide if it's important to introduce two separate very minor characters late in the season.
Bregor is wanted for his name - it's the Bow of Bregor, not the Bow of Bregolas. But mostly we just want him for the name - there are no deeds or characteristics associated with him that I can think of. He is a 'placeholder' on the family tree.
Bregolas is wanted for a brother of Barahir to die tragically in battle, leaving his younger brother to rule their people. Also, Bregolas fathers Baragund and Belegund, who are important for genealogy reasons as the fathers of Morwen and Rian ( they are also members of Barahir's band, so will appear on screen as minor characters).
I suggest combining these characters and compressing the generations.
(The shaded part is offscreen living in Nargothrond before we come back to the story there with Andreth.)
Making both Bregor and Barahir into Andreth's brothers simplifies things and allow us to tell the story without waiting for new generations to be born. Bregor can be the '62 but still hale' warrior who dies in the Dagor Bragollach (since Hador is no longer going to do that). Bregor can be the beloved older brother of Barahir whom he has looked up to his whole life. And, yes, he can be the father of Baragund and Belegund, so that they are old enough to father Morwen and Rian before dying themselves.
We were always going to have a question mark over the succession in the House of Bëor. As Tolkien wrote the story, the family tree looks like this:
So, why does Barahir inherit the position of chieftain of their house upon the death of his older brother Bregolas, when Bregolas has two adult sons? That is a question that is inherent in the story, not one that we have introduced by compressing the timeline or family trees. The answer has to do with the fact that their 'house' now consists of about a dozen guys living in the woods as outlaws, and Barahir is the older uncle of Baragund and Belegund, and the father of Beren. They follow him because he's the leader and he knows what he's doing, presumably.
Our story should definitely show the transition from leadership by the wise to leadership by the warrior for the House of Bëor in Ladros. Barahir and his brother can tell that story. I don't think we have to have them default to male primogeniture to tell our story. We can make that clear in the House of Hador, as Galdor inherits the position from his father Hador.
To draw attention to the brevity of human experiential memory - many people are calling the pandemic we are currently living through 'unprecedented'. 100 years ago, we lived through a very similar pandemic (Spanish flu was a respiratory infection as well). In just a century, we have lost everyone who has living memory of that event, so we know of it only via historical or academic records at this point.
A few comments regarding the Timeline:
I am not sure that the 310 date for Bëor is fixed. We did decide that Bëor would die before Andreth is born, and we want Andreth to be the third generation in Nargothrond. But I think it was very clear last night that Corey Olsen was frustrated to be presented with an uncompressed timeline. He wants the timeline compressed. So, in the end, we may move Bëor up a bit to help accommodate that.
Here is how I am currently viewing the Season 5 timeline for the Edain.
Fixed dates:
Dagor Bragollach - FA 455
Huor born - FA 444
Húrin born - FA 441
Beren born - FA 432
Relative dates:
Settled in Nargothrond - 10 years after Finrod meets Bëor
Death of Bëor - 45 years after meeting Finrod
Birth of Andreth - roughly 60 years (3 generations) after Finrod meets Bëor
Constraint - Birth of Barahir: less than 20 years after birth of Andreth, less than 50 years before Dagor Bragollach, happens before they depart Nargothrond
So, if the earliest Barahir can be born is FA 405, then working backwards we get:
Birth of Andreth in FA 385-390
Death of Bëor in FA 365
Meeting of Bëor and Finrod in FA 320
I'm not saying that we *can't* have Bëor and Finrod meet in FA 310. I am merely pointing out that we might not.
Order of events:
- Finrod meets Bëor
- House of Bëor moves to Nargothrond
- Death of Bëor
- Stockade Battle - Haleth leads her people
- Haleth relocates the Haladin to the Forest of Brethil
- Amlach and Bereg call a Council
- Hador moves his people to Dor-lomin
- Andreth leads her people to Dorthonion
- Barahir emerges as the warrior-leader of the House of Bëor (possibly with Bregolas as well)
- Barahir, Beren, Galdor and others fight in the Dagor Bragollach
Now, to attach years and ages to that list:
- FA 320 - Finrod meets Bëor (48)
- FA 330 - House of Bëor (58) settles in Nargothrond
- FA 365 - Death of Bëor (93)
- FA 375 - Stockade Battle - Haleth (30) leads her people
- FA 390 - Haleth (45) relocates the Haladin to the Forest of Brethil
- FA 399 - Amlach and Bereg (40s) call a Council
- FA 400 - Hador (22) moves his people to Dor-lomin
- FA 410 - Andreth (21) leads her people to Dorthonion [including Barahir (5)]
- FA 430 - Barahir (25) emerges as the warrior-leader of the House of Bëor
- FA 455 - Barahir (50), Beren (23), Galdor (43) and others fight in the Dagor Bragollach
A comment on Bregor/Bregolas: We are going to have to decide if it's important to introduce two separate very minor characters late in the season.
Bregor is wanted for his name - it's the Bow of Bregor, not the Bow of Bregolas. But mostly we just want him for the name - there are no deeds or characteristics associated with him that I can think of. He is a 'placeholder' on the family tree.
Bregolas is wanted for a brother of Barahir to die tragically in battle, leaving his younger brother to rule their people. Also, Bregolas fathers Baragund and Belegund, who are important for genealogy reasons as the fathers of Morwen and Rian ( they are also members of Barahir's band, so will appear on screen as minor characters).
I suggest combining these characters and compressing the generations.
(The shaded part is offscreen living in Nargothrond before we come back to the story there with Andreth.)
Making both Bregor and Barahir into Andreth's brothers simplifies things and allow us to tell the story without waiting for new generations to be born. Bregor can be the '62 but still hale' warrior who dies in the Dagor Bragollach (since Hador is no longer going to do that). Bregor can be the beloved older brother of Barahir whom he has looked up to his whole life. And, yes, he can be the father of Baragund and Belegund, so that they are old enough to father Morwen and Rian before dying themselves.
We were always going to have a question mark over the succession in the House of Bëor. As Tolkien wrote the story, the family tree looks like this:
So, why does Barahir inherit the position of chieftain of their house upon the death of his older brother Bregolas, when Bregolas has two adult sons? That is a question that is inherent in the story, not one that we have introduced by compressing the timeline or family trees. The answer has to do with the fact that their 'house' now consists of about a dozen guys living in the woods as outlaws, and Barahir is the older uncle of Baragund and Belegund, and the father of Beren. They follow him because he's the leader and he knows what he's doing, presumably.
Our story should definitely show the transition from leadership by the wise to leadership by the warrior for the House of Bëor in Ladros. Barahir and his brother can tell that story. I don't think we have to have them default to male primogeniture to tell our story. We can make that clear in the House of Hador, as Galdor inherits the position from his father Hador.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
It also defaults to male primogeniture in the House of Haleth, since the rulers of that house are descended from her nephew Haldan.
Yes, I recognize that all three houses follow that in the original story (with that strange blip where Barahir takes leadership). But in the story we are telling, that won't be the case in the House of Bëor. They are living with the elves of Nargothrond, so Finrod is their lord. Then they move. And, in only a generation or two, are nearly wiped out. So, there is no real opportunity for leadership to pass from father to son at any point.
For the House of Haleth, Haleth's nephew (or niece) will rule after her, as she has no children. How we depict that House after the death of Haleth (with Hareth, and with young Huor and Hurin) remains to be determined.
For the House of Haleth, Haleth's nephew (or niece) will rule after her, as she has no children. How we depict that House after the death of Haleth (with Hareth, and with young Huor and Hurin) remains to be determined.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, the known figures of the House of Haleth after Haleth are (at least in the published Silmarillion, we’ll have to make a desision on how much to depict the Wanderings of Hurin):
- Haldan: nephew of Haleth, succeeds her as head of the House.
- Haldir and Hareth; Haldir marries Gloredhel daughter of Hador and Hareth Galdor the Tall in a double wedding. Haldir is KIA in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and Gloredhel dies of grief when word is brought of his fall. Hareth is mother of Hurin and Huor and she may be dead by Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
- Handir son of Haldir; a man of skill, KIA in a skirmish before the Battle of Tumladen/Fall of Nargothrond.
- Brandir son of Handir: known as The Lame for a leg broken in his childhood. Killed by Turin when he revealed Turin’s incest with Nienor. The direct line ends with him.
- Hunthor: a kinsman of Brandir through his great-aunt Hiril. Killed when Glaurung dislodged a rock which busted open his head at Cabed-en-Aras. May not be necessary to depict him as a direct descendent of Haldan.
I have been giving some thought to cultural memory.
I know the US is an odd example. Our history doesn't stretch back very far, and there is a disconnect for immigrants between what happened here and what came before in the places they are from. Obviously, those who come to this country know about their life and culture from their place of origin, and those who are born here are at least familiar with it based on their parents' stories...but by the third generation, a lot of that knowledge and understanding is lost. That generation is less likely to speak the native language of their grandparents, for instance. There are always exceptions to generalizations like this, and some conditions make an entire group's experience different. For instance, if you live within an immigrant community where your native language is spoken or attend school in that language, you are much more likely to learn it. But I have heard it said: "In England, they think 100 miles is a long distance. In America, they think that 100 years is a long time." Other places definitely have longer memories than we do here.
Looking back on cultural history from the point in time of 2020, I can also pinpoint how well people tend to remember certain events that impacted the entire nation. For reference, I turn 40 this year, so I was born in 1980 (well after all the events listed below).
The moon landing was 51 years ago. Plenty of people alive now remember that happening, though they are mostly grandparents. They watched it on TV. Those who were born later know it was important and learned about it - from their family, in school, whatever. This event is well-known culturally. It can be referenced on a TV show and they expect the general public to know what they are talking about. Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin are names people recognize.
World War II ended 74 years ago. Very few people alive today remember V-E day. The veterans of that war who are still alive today are few, and in their late 90's. Of course, that event was very significant, and everyone alive today knows about WWII. Not as a memory, but as history they have learned. But not just history-book-history....family stories of people who lived through that time. Grandparents who fought in the war, or got married afterwards, or something. The Great Depression that preceded WWII is similar - very few people alive today lived through it. And yet there is a strong cultural memory from the people who did. Their children and grandchildren remember their thriftiness, how they never threw anything away, how they ate everything with no scraps left behind, etc. But the younger people alive now don't even have many stories of that to go on; they never met the people who lived through the events. The memory of what it meant to live through the Great Depression and WWII is fading, though we all still know it happened.
The Spanish Flu pandemic was 100 years ago. No one alive today has any first-hand memory of it. The very oldest people still alive *may* have been a baby during this time. There is very little cultural memory of this event left. It's in history books. People know it happened. But no one remembers it or has stories of what it was like to live at that time. Family oral traditions don't typically include tales related to the pandemic or WWI. It's...too long ago. The children of the people who were adults at this time have mostly passed away. Their grandchildren are the ones who personally remember the moon landing. (For context that everyone here will get: JRRT lived through WWI and the pandemic. CJRT, who was born after that, died in his 90's recently.)
So those are my bench marks of what people remember happening 50, 75, or 100 years ago - from the viewpoint of a 40-year-old. I could certainly pick events in my lifetime where I am the person who 'lived through it' and add that in for comparison. After all, 9/11 was 19 years ago. I have taught students who were too young to remember it happening. For them, their entire lives have been 'post-9/11'.
For the Edain, we are considering a few major migrations this season, and I want to put all of them in context and make sure we get the 'correct' number of generations or passage of years between each event to fit our story. It is important to point out that, in most cases, they are immigrating to an empty land. So, it isn't going to be the break with the old culture and the absorption into the new culture that individual families immigrating to a new country find themselves living out. Still, environment shapes culture, so every change in environment will shape their culture into something new. Maybe just not as starkly or quickly.
{see below}
I know the US is an odd example. Our history doesn't stretch back very far, and there is a disconnect for immigrants between what happened here and what came before in the places they are from. Obviously, those who come to this country know about their life and culture from their place of origin, and those who are born here are at least familiar with it based on their parents' stories...but by the third generation, a lot of that knowledge and understanding is lost. That generation is less likely to speak the native language of their grandparents, for instance. There are always exceptions to generalizations like this, and some conditions make an entire group's experience different. For instance, if you live within an immigrant community where your native language is spoken or attend school in that language, you are much more likely to learn it. But I have heard it said: "In England, they think 100 miles is a long distance. In America, they think that 100 years is a long time." Other places definitely have longer memories than we do here.
Looking back on cultural history from the point in time of 2020, I can also pinpoint how well people tend to remember certain events that impacted the entire nation. For reference, I turn 40 this year, so I was born in 1980 (well after all the events listed below).
The moon landing was 51 years ago. Plenty of people alive now remember that happening, though they are mostly grandparents. They watched it on TV. Those who were born later know it was important and learned about it - from their family, in school, whatever. This event is well-known culturally. It can be referenced on a TV show and they expect the general public to know what they are talking about. Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin are names people recognize.
World War II ended 74 years ago. Very few people alive today remember V-E day. The veterans of that war who are still alive today are few, and in their late 90's. Of course, that event was very significant, and everyone alive today knows about WWII. Not as a memory, but as history they have learned. But not just history-book-history....family stories of people who lived through that time. Grandparents who fought in the war, or got married afterwards, or something. The Great Depression that preceded WWII is similar - very few people alive today lived through it. And yet there is a strong cultural memory from the people who did. Their children and grandchildren remember their thriftiness, how they never threw anything away, how they ate everything with no scraps left behind, etc. But the younger people alive now don't even have many stories of that to go on; they never met the people who lived through the events. The memory of what it meant to live through the Great Depression and WWII is fading, though we all still know it happened.
The Spanish Flu pandemic was 100 years ago. No one alive today has any first-hand memory of it. The very oldest people still alive *may* have been a baby during this time. There is very little cultural memory of this event left. It's in history books. People know it happened. But no one remembers it or has stories of what it was like to live at that time. Family oral traditions don't typically include tales related to the pandemic or WWI. It's...too long ago. The children of the people who were adults at this time have mostly passed away. Their grandchildren are the ones who personally remember the moon landing. (For context that everyone here will get: JRRT lived through WWI and the pandemic. CJRT, who was born after that, died in his 90's recently.)
So those are my bench marks of what people remember happening 50, 75, or 100 years ago - from the viewpoint of a 40-year-old. I could certainly pick events in my lifetime where I am the person who 'lived through it' and add that in for comparison. After all, 9/11 was 19 years ago. I have taught students who were too young to remember it happening. For them, their entire lives have been 'post-9/11'.
For the Edain, we are considering a few major migrations this season, and I want to put all of them in context and make sure we get the 'correct' number of generations or passage of years between each event to fit our story. It is important to point out that, in most cases, they are immigrating to an empty land. So, it isn't going to be the break with the old culture and the absorption into the new culture that individual families immigrating to a new country find themselves living out. Still, environment shapes culture, so every change in environment will shape their culture into something new. Maybe just not as starkly or quickly.
{see below}
House of Haleth migrates from Eriador to Beleriand. Haleth was born in Beleriand. Was she raised by parents who also only know Beleriand? Perhaps Haleth's father will be too young to have personally remembered Eriador. Maybe he wasn't born yet, maybe he was a baby or a toddler, but it is possible all of his memories are of Beleriand. He was certainly raised by people who made the journey, though, even if he himself could be too young to remember it. So, Haleth is a 'native' of Beleriand in a way that those before her were not. But that journey into Beleriand? When she's growing up, that's the moon landing. It's before her time. Only the older adults she knows have any first-hand knowledge of it. But it's something all of her people know happened and know stories about. By the time she is leading them through Nan Dungortheb to Brethil, though, the original migration is more WWII-era - that's their grandparents' story. That is the shift that happens over Haleth's lifetime. The new migration 'replaces' the old migration in cultural significance. The pattern then repeats in Brethil. Her nephew/niece made the trek through Nan Dungortheb personally. So, it will take 2 more generations before that has faded to a story, and the people of Brethil will now feel like 'natives' of Brethil. So, Hareth being the granddaughter of that nephew/niece will fit. (It will be important that, if we show the double wedding, we show Hareth's grandparents there and identify them to the audience as the young person from Haleth's story.)
House of Hador migrates to Beleriand and settles in Estolad. They are there for an indeterminate amount of time before Amlach and Bereg (we should probably rename him - do we want to call him Marach?) get restless. Amlach and Bereg are both born in Beleriand. They grew up in Estolad...right? Where do they get the idea that things should be different? What cultural impulse is backing their desire for change? As you can see, I'm a bit hazy on their attempted reform measures. Generally speaking, something sets it off - some event, or some outsider coming in and being dissatisfied, something. I know we want to have something-something-Green-Elves, but I do think we have some more work to do on their story. At any rate, 21-year-old Hador leads all the willing to Dor-lomin for a new life...yet another migration. Hador's children are born in Dor-lomin, so Galdor is a 2nd generation immigrant there. And Galdor's sons would be feeling comfortably native there...except...their mother is from Brethil, and they are splitting time between the two places, learning both cultures (and then they wind up in Gondolin, so). I think there will be a pretty consistent underlying tension about whether or not Dor-lomin is truly home in this House, a tension we won't see in Brethil. For Galdor, everyone he grows up with who is even just a bit older than him lived through the migration, so his generation knows all about it from stories. At the time of the Dagor Bragollach, that migration is only 55 years in the past, so it is 'the moon landing' to their people. Even the young children know it happened and know details about it, even if it feels very distant and historical to them; and the oldest generation remembers living through it.
The House of Bëor comes to Beleriand when Bëor is an adult and a father. His children are born and likely have grown to adults themselves before they move to Nargothrond. Unlike the other migrations, where the Edain settle an empty/open space, in this case they are integrating into an existing Elvish culture. They have the true 'immigrant' experience - they are in the minority, joining a majority culture that is already well-established. So, 'forgetting their past' and 'losing their culture' is more likely in this group than the others. We're going to see them employ efforts to not lose the past. Adanel is going to pass on knowledge to Andreth. They are going to have written records. They are grasping onto something that is actively eroding away in a way that the other Houses are not. No doubt the House of Bëor dresses like Elves eventually. So, Bëor and his children are the first generation immigrants. They move into Nargothrond with personal knowledge of 'life before hand.' They have all their own skills and crafts and knowledge about how to live and survive in the life they knew. Bëor's grandchildren are the first generation raised in Nargothrond. They were either young children during the settlement, or were born there. All they personally know is life in Nargothrond, but they are surrounded by older people who remember the journey. They grow up with a lot of stories of life outside and before. Bëor's grandchildren are also the last generation that will know Bëor. He dies, and then the 2nd generation is born in Nargothrond. These have only a hazy connection to the past. It's historical and theoretical to them. They don't personally know the people in the stories that are passed down. Their relationship to the people who moved to Nargothrond is not unlike my relationship to the people who fought in WWII. There's a cultural memory there, but it isn't personal. The next generation is cut off entirely. They barely know who Bëor is, because their parents were born after he died. Currently, this is Andreth's generation. She is the 3rd generation raised in Nargothrond. When Andreth moves her people from Nargothrond to Dorthonion, it has been 90-100 years since Bëor moved them into Nargothrond in the first place. Thus, no one alive remembers the former move. It is 'unprecedented' what Andreth is suggesting. Then, they start anew in Dorthonion. The first generation raised there is living a different lifestyle, gaining new skills. If Barahir is Andreth's younger brother, we see the difference in how the two of them are raised. Barahir grows up to be a warrior/ranger type, someone not seen in his culture in a century. Perhaps he is like Bëor in some ways? But he is clearly a 'break' with what came before and a new direction for the people. Beren, Beregund, and Belegund all grow up in the new Dorthonion culture as well. But what came before is not forgotten - Andreth is a memory keeper, and there are plenty alive who remember Nargothrond.
House of Hador migrates to Beleriand and settles in Estolad. They are there for an indeterminate amount of time before Amlach and Bereg (we should probably rename him - do we want to call him Marach?) get restless. Amlach and Bereg are both born in Beleriand. They grew up in Estolad...right? Where do they get the idea that things should be different? What cultural impulse is backing their desire for change? As you can see, I'm a bit hazy on their attempted reform measures. Generally speaking, something sets it off - some event, or some outsider coming in and being dissatisfied, something. I know we want to have something-something-Green-Elves, but I do think we have some more work to do on their story. At any rate, 21-year-old Hador leads all the willing to Dor-lomin for a new life...yet another migration. Hador's children are born in Dor-lomin, so Galdor is a 2nd generation immigrant there. And Galdor's sons would be feeling comfortably native there...except...their mother is from Brethil, and they are splitting time between the two places, learning both cultures (and then they wind up in Gondolin, so). I think there will be a pretty consistent underlying tension about whether or not Dor-lomin is truly home in this House, a tension we won't see in Brethil. For Galdor, everyone he grows up with who is even just a bit older than him lived through the migration, so his generation knows all about it from stories. At the time of the Dagor Bragollach, that migration is only 55 years in the past, so it is 'the moon landing' to their people. Even the young children know it happened and know details about it, even if it feels very distant and historical to them; and the oldest generation remembers living through it.
The House of Bëor comes to Beleriand when Bëor is an adult and a father. His children are born and likely have grown to adults themselves before they move to Nargothrond. Unlike the other migrations, where the Edain settle an empty/open space, in this case they are integrating into an existing Elvish culture. They have the true 'immigrant' experience - they are in the minority, joining a majority culture that is already well-established. So, 'forgetting their past' and 'losing their culture' is more likely in this group than the others. We're going to see them employ efforts to not lose the past. Adanel is going to pass on knowledge to Andreth. They are going to have written records. They are grasping onto something that is actively eroding away in a way that the other Houses are not. No doubt the House of Bëor dresses like Elves eventually. So, Bëor and his children are the first generation immigrants. They move into Nargothrond with personal knowledge of 'life before hand.' They have all their own skills and crafts and knowledge about how to live and survive in the life they knew. Bëor's grandchildren are the first generation raised in Nargothrond. They were either young children during the settlement, or were born there. All they personally know is life in Nargothrond, but they are surrounded by older people who remember the journey. They grow up with a lot of stories of life outside and before. Bëor's grandchildren are also the last generation that will know Bëor. He dies, and then the 2nd generation is born in Nargothrond. These have only a hazy connection to the past. It's historical and theoretical to them. They don't personally know the people in the stories that are passed down. Their relationship to the people who moved to Nargothrond is not unlike my relationship to the people who fought in WWII. There's a cultural memory there, but it isn't personal. The next generation is cut off entirely. They barely know who Bëor is, because their parents were born after he died. Currently, this is Andreth's generation. She is the 3rd generation raised in Nargothrond. When Andreth moves her people from Nargothrond to Dorthonion, it has been 90-100 years since Bëor moved them into Nargothrond in the first place. Thus, no one alive remembers the former move. It is 'unprecedented' what Andreth is suggesting. Then, they start anew in Dorthonion. The first generation raised there is living a different lifestyle, gaining new skills. If Barahir is Andreth's younger brother, we see the difference in how the two of them are raised. Barahir grows up to be a warrior/ranger type, someone not seen in his culture in a century. Perhaps he is like Bëor in some ways? But he is clearly a 'break' with what came before and a new direction for the people. Beren, Beregund, and Belegund all grow up in the new Dorthonion culture as well. But what came before is not forgotten - Andreth is a memory keeper, and there are plenty alive who remember Nargothrond.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
For the House of Hador’s family, would Hador be going to Hithlum on his own initiative or on the suggestion of an elder as overtures for peace? Perhaps there’s factionalism and Hador is part of one group that wants to make peace with the Elves and Amlach and Bereg (I suggest Malach because of the prefix and the irony since Malach was the Man whose place Hador is taking) are part of different factions who are more hostile with the Elves.
Yes, Hador's story should be tied into the situation with his people.
Good call!
Obviously, the elven storylines will take up a lot of space this season, and we have not yet worked out exactly what that will look like. So, we can't fill up all 13 episodes with human storylines.
What I have done is to lay out the order of the stories we want to tell, with the understanding that they may be pushed back to a later episode or forced to share time with an elven plotline.
So, Bëor's story plays out over three episodes, but most of the content is in that first episode. What is left after that is showing him palling around with Finrod, loving life in Nargothrond...and then his death.
Haleth's storyline is mostly contained in two Haleth-centric episodes. What will most likely happen will be that we will get one Haleth-centric episode for the stockade battle, and then the journey through Nan Dungortheb and killing Tevildo to take Brethil will be split into two different episodes to share air-time with Elves.
Then we get the Council. We will likely want to do some set-up in a prior episode, but the Council itself is a very involved plot and will *have* to be the central story of whatever episode it appears in. It would be possible to show some aftermath in later episodes (ie, the move to Dor-lomin and Hador establishing his realm)
Next we are ready for Andreth. Her story will play out over multiple episodes. How many depends on how far the story advances each time and how much we are focusing on her.
Finally, we have the build up to the end of the season. Galdor marrying Hareth may not be something we show happening, but it would be a nice way to emphasize the peacetime interaction between Dor-lomin and Brethil. Andreth transitioning the leadership role to Barahir. And then of course the final 2 episodes will be all the events of the Dagor Bragollach. I didn't list that in detail, but merely tried to give some indication that people were involved.
It looks very full/busy to me right now, but I think I understand the order we are trying to tell these stories in. Each of the three Houses is separate, but they are all finding their places in Beleriand throughout the season, so there is some loose cohesion to the story.
Good call!
Obviously, the elven storylines will take up a lot of space this season, and we have not yet worked out exactly what that will look like. So, we can't fill up all 13 episodes with human storylines.
What I have done is to lay out the order of the stories we want to tell, with the understanding that they may be pushed back to a later episode or forced to share time with an elven plotline.
So, Bëor's story plays out over three episodes, but most of the content is in that first episode. What is left after that is showing him palling around with Finrod, loving life in Nargothrond...and then his death.
Haleth's storyline is mostly contained in two Haleth-centric episodes. What will most likely happen will be that we will get one Haleth-centric episode for the stockade battle, and then the journey through Nan Dungortheb and killing Tevildo to take Brethil will be split into two different episodes to share air-time with Elves.
Then we get the Council. We will likely want to do some set-up in a prior episode, but the Council itself is a very involved plot and will *have* to be the central story of whatever episode it appears in. It would be possible to show some aftermath in later episodes (ie, the move to Dor-lomin and Hador establishing his realm)
Next we are ready for Andreth. Her story will play out over multiple episodes. How many depends on how far the story advances each time and how much we are focusing on her.
Finally, we have the build up to the end of the season. Galdor marrying Hareth may not be something we show happening, but it would be a nice way to emphasize the peacetime interaction between Dor-lomin and Brethil. Andreth transitioning the leadership role to Barahir. And then of course the final 2 episodes will be all the events of the Dagor Bragollach. I didn't list that in detail, but merely tried to give some indication that people were involved.
It looks very full/busy to me right now, but I think I understand the order we are trying to tell these stories in. Each of the three Houses is separate, but they are all finding their places in Beleriand throughout the season, so there is some loose cohesion to the story.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
I've been playing around with the timeline I made trying to fit the Hosts' wishes for the House of Beor, and I have a few different suggestions.
Option A
View attachment TimelineS5-A.jpg
The move to Dorthonion takes place later in Andreth's life and is the culmination of her discussions with Finrod rather than an early idea. Andreth lives a very long life and is in her 90s at the Dagor Bragollach. She is Barahir's aunt, and Barahir has been born by the time they move to Dorthonion.
In this timeline, we could make Barahir born a little later than 400 so that he is younger during the move if we wanted to, and it would still make sense for his son Beren to be an adult at the Dagor Bragollach.
Option B
View attachment TimelineS5-B.jpg
This timeline has the move to Dorthonion happening early in Andreth's life, and she is Barahir's older sister. There is an age gap of 15 years between them, and they were born when Boromir was 23 and 38, respectively, with Bregolas in the middle.
I don't recommend having Andreth and Barahir's father marry a second time to explain the age gap. Since remarriage was such a big deal in the case of Finwe and Indis, I feel like it would be odd to just mention that Boromir remarried without showing some kind of reaction from the Elves . Also, having Andreth's mother die at a young age would seem contradictory to the supposed life of peace and bliss in Nargothrond. We could certainly make parallels with Feanor and the death of Miriel, but I don't see that as having any benefits for Andreth's character, so I don't think we should do it.
Option C
View attachment TimelineS5-C.jpg
This makes Andreth Barahir's aunt with an age gap of 18 years between them. I like this option the best because I think the mentor role we want Andreth to have for Barahir would be better filled by an aunt than an older sister, even though the age gap between them will not be that much greater than option B.
I'll work on some timelines that achieve the same thing by taking out years rather than shifting birth and death dates, but it will take longer to do the math and move the little boxes around in Photoshop.
Something I think we should consider when deciding how old to make Andreth at the Dagor Bragollach is whether we want her to play any role in later seasons. If she is still appears relatively young at the end of Season 5, viewers will wonder where she is and what happened to her if we don't show her with the other refugees in later seasons. Personally, I would prefer to make Andreth as old as possible at the end of this season and have her die offscreen early next season because I think it would be neat for her to make a brief cameo appearance as a spirit in the Halls of Mandos when Beren and Luthien are there.
Option A
View attachment TimelineS5-A.jpg
The move to Dorthonion takes place later in Andreth's life and is the culmination of her discussions with Finrod rather than an early idea. Andreth lives a very long life and is in her 90s at the Dagor Bragollach. She is Barahir's aunt, and Barahir has been born by the time they move to Dorthonion.
In this timeline, we could make Barahir born a little later than 400 so that he is younger during the move if we wanted to, and it would still make sense for his son Beren to be an adult at the Dagor Bragollach.
Option B
View attachment TimelineS5-B.jpg
This timeline has the move to Dorthonion happening early in Andreth's life, and she is Barahir's older sister. There is an age gap of 15 years between them, and they were born when Boromir was 23 and 38, respectively, with Bregolas in the middle.
I don't recommend having Andreth and Barahir's father marry a second time to explain the age gap. Since remarriage was such a big deal in the case of Finwe and Indis, I feel like it would be odd to just mention that Boromir remarried without showing some kind of reaction from the Elves . Also, having Andreth's mother die at a young age would seem contradictory to the supposed life of peace and bliss in Nargothrond. We could certainly make parallels with Feanor and the death of Miriel, but I don't see that as having any benefits for Andreth's character, so I don't think we should do it.
Option C
View attachment TimelineS5-C.jpg
This makes Andreth Barahir's aunt with an age gap of 18 years between them. I like this option the best because I think the mentor role we want Andreth to have for Barahir would be better filled by an aunt than an older sister, even though the age gap between them will not be that much greater than option B.
I'll work on some timelines that achieve the same thing by taking out years rather than shifting birth and death dates, but it will take longer to do the math and move the little boxes around in Photoshop.
Something I think we should consider when deciding how old to make Andreth at the Dagor Bragollach is whether we want her to play any role in later seasons. If she is still appears relatively young at the end of Season 5, viewers will wonder where she is and what happened to her if we don't show her with the other refugees in later seasons. Personally, I would prefer to make Andreth as old as possible at the end of this season and have her die offscreen early next season because I think it would be neat for her to make a brief cameo appearance as a spirit in the Halls of Mandos when Beren and Luthien are there.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
For how old we want Andreth to be circa Dagor Bragollach: I'm not very picky, but I think she'd be dead by the Nirnaeth. Also, if we have her leaving Dorthonion, where do we want her to go? The women and children of the House of Bëor go to Dor-Lomin (Morwen and Rian) or Brethil (Emeldir).
Some comments (Andreth-centric):
In Timeline A, Andreth and Aegnor have a relationship prior to the move to Dorthonion. Corey and Dave said that they were very leery of introducing Andreth as a 'love interest' for Aegnor before establishing her as a character who is the leader of her people who accomplishes things. For this reason, I think it's very important that their relationship happen after the move to Dorthonion. And, naturally, if she is 51 when they relocate, that's a *little* late for the romance storyline! But also, I am very concerned with a story where a 50 year old woman decides that her people should all uproot themselves and move. That fits much better with a much younger Andreth. Large, outside-the-box changes are not typically initiated by someone who has lived within a system their entire lives and that's "just how things are." I am not saying that no 50 year old person has ever led a migration....I am saying that it would be an unusual point in time in someone's life to decide the change is necessary. Willingness to move across the world and start from scratch is more of a young adult trait. True, Tolkien has Bilbo and Frodo be about that age for their adventures, but in both cases, that is dropped on their doorstep...and they're hobbits, who come of age at 33. Certainly, the book timeline and importance of the Athrabeth is maintained here, but I think other important details are lost. I don't think Timeline A is tenable for the story we are trying to tell.
In Timelines B and C, we see the order of events that the Hosts requested. We see a young Andreth (in this case 23) lead the migration after having her own insight into her people's situation. Established as a leader, she then meets Aegnor and falls in love (at age 25). There is then time for her to become bitter and have regrets prior to the Dagor Bragollach. True, when that battle comes, she's not as old as in the book. She's 'only' 73. That's old enough to be visibly old, but young enough to potentially lead the exiles. As Ange1e4e5 pointed out, the refugees have two destinations, so having Andreth and Emeldir work together to lead the people allows there to be two branches or waves of refugees. I don't think there is any issue with suggesting that Andreth would then die (presumably of old age) some time prior to the Nirnaeth (472), in the intervening 17 years. We would likely find a way to reference her death sometime in Season 6 or 7.
I recognize that there are plenty of other issues to discuss in all three of these timelines, and I may do that later. But for the Andreth portion, I do think that Timeline A is unworkable.
As for the 'Boromir's 2nd wife' idea, I will explain what I was thinking in suggesting this.
Now, I don't think it essential that we develop a storyline where Andreth's father is a widower who remarries, giving Andreth a dead mom and a step-mom, with Barahir as her young step-brother. There are other ways to arrange the family if we'd like to. But I think it could work out and serve the story, if we wanted to go that way.
In Timeline A, Andreth and Aegnor have a relationship prior to the move to Dorthonion. Corey and Dave said that they were very leery of introducing Andreth as a 'love interest' for Aegnor before establishing her as a character who is the leader of her people who accomplishes things. For this reason, I think it's very important that their relationship happen after the move to Dorthonion. And, naturally, if she is 51 when they relocate, that's a *little* late for the romance storyline! But also, I am very concerned with a story where a 50 year old woman decides that her people should all uproot themselves and move. That fits much better with a much younger Andreth. Large, outside-the-box changes are not typically initiated by someone who has lived within a system their entire lives and that's "just how things are." I am not saying that no 50 year old person has ever led a migration....I am saying that it would be an unusual point in time in someone's life to decide the change is necessary. Willingness to move across the world and start from scratch is more of a young adult trait. True, Tolkien has Bilbo and Frodo be about that age for their adventures, but in both cases, that is dropped on their doorstep...and they're hobbits, who come of age at 33. Certainly, the book timeline and importance of the Athrabeth is maintained here, but I think other important details are lost. I don't think Timeline A is tenable for the story we are trying to tell.
In Timelines B and C, we see the order of events that the Hosts requested. We see a young Andreth (in this case 23) lead the migration after having her own insight into her people's situation. Established as a leader, she then meets Aegnor and falls in love (at age 25). There is then time for her to become bitter and have regrets prior to the Dagor Bragollach. True, when that battle comes, she's not as old as in the book. She's 'only' 73. That's old enough to be visibly old, but young enough to potentially lead the exiles. As Ange1e4e5 pointed out, the refugees have two destinations, so having Andreth and Emeldir work together to lead the people allows there to be two branches or waves of refugees. I don't think there is any issue with suggesting that Andreth would then die (presumably of old age) some time prior to the Nirnaeth (472), in the intervening 17 years. We would likely find a way to reference her death sometime in Season 6 or 7.
I recognize that there are plenty of other issues to discuss in all three of these timelines, and I may do that later. But for the Andreth portion, I do think that Timeline A is unworkable.
As for the 'Boromir's 2nd wife' idea, I will explain what I was thinking in suggesting this.
One, it introduces an age gap between Andreth and her little brother Barahir. So, it 'fits' with that story, though this detail is not necessary to tell it.
Two, dead moms is a 'thing' in Tolkien - most of his characters have them. Giving Andreth this experience will tie her into many other characters' stories, and potentially create a tragedy in her younger life that sets her apart from those growing up in the idyll of Nargothrond. It could be an important component in both her relationship with Adanel and also her decision to leave. How does the death occur? Illness or childbirth are the likely culprits, though it could be a tragic accident of some sort.
I am well aware of the Finwë-Míriel-Indis parallel, and would absolutely expect Finrod or Aegnor to comment on this. We are going to have Finrod and Andreth converse with one another throughout her life; there will be opportunities for it to come up. Remarriage is one way in which Men are different from Elves, connected directly to their different fates. We are wanting the migration of the House of Bëor to Dorthonion to be seen as a parallel to the exodus of the Noldor from Valinor. The difference, of course, is that Andreth is *not* Fëanor. No kinslaying, no feud with her little brother. Instead, she finds a peaceful way to depart, and she brings *all* of her people along together.
Now, I don't think it essential that we develop a storyline where Andreth's father is a widower who remarries, giving Andreth a dead mom and a step-mom, with Barahir as her young step-brother. There are other ways to arrange the family if we'd like to. But I think it could work out and serve the story, if we wanted to go that way.
Timeline Constraints
Here are, as far as I can tell, the full list of constraints as to when things must fall in the timeline, based on all of the discussions thus far:
Dagor Bragollach = FA 455
[IF we included the double wedding, that would put an additional constraint on tying the Houses of Hador and Haleth together in the timeline at a single point. But, based on what has been said thus far, I have not heard anything that indicated we are obligated to include this at this point.]
So, optional constraint:
A few comments on 'general' human timeline constraints:
No one can live past 100 years old (pre-Numenor)
Human women typically marry and give birth to children between the ages of (say) 18-35. Childbearing past age 40 is...complicated (much more likely if the woman already has older children, but still...complicated).
Human men can become fathers when they are older, but also typically have children in their 20's or 30's.
While lives can stretch into the 80's and 90's, physical fitness decreases significantly. If we need someone to sit next to a fire wrapped in blankets and make some pronouncements, fine, they can be very, very old. If we need someone to take part in a migration...they have to still be able to get around and should probably be pre-80. If we need someone to fight in a battle, they need to be active and strong....so pre-60, and preferably 18-40. Yes, I know Theoden was meant to be 70 in LotR. I also notice that he was cast as Bernard Hill, who was 58 when TTT was released. I am going to stick to that pre-60 rule for warriors, unless our story is that someone who has no business strapping on armor stubbornly chooses to show up on a battlefield and gets themselves killed.
So, given these constraints, some events have set date ranges.
Here are, as far as I can tell, the full list of constraints as to when things must fall in the timeline, based on all of the discussions thus far:
Dagor Bragollach = FA 455
Andreth will survive the Dagor Bragollach
Beren is an adult who can fight in the Dagor Bragollach; he is born in Ladros
Barahir is no older than fifty in the Dagor Bragollach
Barahir is born in Nargothrond and is a child during the move to Dorthonion (Ladros)
Three generations live in Nargothrond before Andreth moves them.
Andreth's romance with Aegnor happens after the move to Dorthonion
The House of Bëor has time to adapt to their new lives in Ladros prior to the Dagor Bragollach.
Bëor lives for ~45 years after meeting Finrod. He is the oldest of his people.
Andreth is born after the death of Bëor.
The move to Dorthonion happens after Hador has become Lord of Dor-lomin
Hador is a young man in his 20's during the Council.
Hador establishes himself as a brave young warrior in service to Fingon prior to the Council
Hador is not a warrior during the Dagor Bragollach (either too old to fight, or dead)
Hador is Galdor's father
Galdor is an adult of fighting age with teenage children during the Dagor Bragollach
Haleth and her twin brother are born in Beleriand; he has a child prior to his death.
Battle at the Stockade happens prior to Council.
Haleth kills Tevildo and settles in Brethil prior to becoming an old lady.
[IF we included the double wedding, that would put an additional constraint on tying the Houses of Hador and Haleth together in the timeline at a single point. But, based on what has been said thus far, I have not heard anything that indicated we are obligated to include this at this point.]
So, optional constraint:
Galdor marries Hareth (a descendant of Haleth's brother) at the same time their brother and sister also marry. Galdor and Hareth must be within 10 years of one another's age, and should marry in their 20's by FA 440.
A few comments on 'general' human timeline constraints:
No one can live past 100 years old (pre-Numenor)
Human women typically marry and give birth to children between the ages of (say) 18-35. Childbearing past age 40 is...complicated (much more likely if the woman already has older children, but still...complicated).
Human men can become fathers when they are older, but also typically have children in their 20's or 30's.
While lives can stretch into the 80's and 90's, physical fitness decreases significantly. If we need someone to sit next to a fire wrapped in blankets and make some pronouncements, fine, they can be very, very old. If we need someone to take part in a migration...they have to still be able to get around and should probably be pre-80. If we need someone to fight in a battle, they need to be active and strong....so pre-60, and preferably 18-40. Yes, I know Theoden was meant to be 70 in LotR. I also notice that he was cast as Bernard Hill, who was 58 when TTT was released. I am going to stick to that pre-60 rule for warriors, unless our story is that someone who has no business strapping on armor stubbornly chooses to show up on a battlefield and gets themselves killed.
So, given these constraints, some events have set date ranges.
Birth of Barahir = FA 405-415
Move to Dorthonion = FA 406 - 420
Birth of Andreth = FA 380 - 400
Birth of Galdor = FA 400-421
Council = FA 380-405
Haladin settle in Brethil = 365-405
Stockade battle = FA 350-390
Finrod meets Bëor = FA 310-350
(Double wedding = FA 435-440)
Obviously, as you place an event on the timeline, you constrain other events further as well. But those ranges should at least help keep everything in the right place while working through this.
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amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
That's some nice work, chipping away at the timeline. You guys will get there, I can see it (sorry I can't help much right now, my creative energies are elsewhere engaged this season).
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I think adding the double wedding is a nice touch, and in the case of the four people who are married it's one of the more distinctive things about them, particularly Hareth and Gloredhel; the only things we know about Hareth is that she's from Brethil, her sons are Hurin and Huor, and that Hurin inherited his height from her. For Gloredhel, the next point she enters the narrative is the aftermath of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, where it's stated that she died of grief after hearing of her husband Haldir's death.
I took another look at the GANTT chart.
I think if we make Episode 2 Aredhel-centric (her departure from Gondolin, journey through Nan Dungortheb, visit to the Fëanoreans, and up to her entrance into Nan Elmoth), that will get her story off to a solid start. We can then tell all of the Nan Elmoth story (getting lost, meeting Eöl, marriage, birth of Maeglin, raising him while 'trapped', etc) over the course of the season in various episodes. Then, we will need a later episode to be focused on Aredhel, most likely Episode 11. That will be her return to Gondolin and death, setting up Maeglin in Gondolin for later. So, Episodes 2 & 11 are focused on Aredhel, and she appears in various episodes between those two.
If we do it this way, we should have plenty of room for our human-centric stories. Like so:
House of Bëor is the primary plotline of Episodes 1 and 8.
House of Bëor has significant plot stories in Episodes 3, 9, and 13.
House of Hador is the primary plotline of Episode 7.
House of Hador has significant plot stories in Episodes 6, 8, possibly 9 and 12.
House of Haleth is the primary plotline of Episode 4.
House of Haleth has significant plot stories in Episodes 5, 6, and potentially 9.
This is a proposed breakdown of the episodes, not a final one, obviously. As we move on to planning the elven storylines, though, it's important to keep in mind how much 'space' the human plotlines are already occupying. It's not a problem (yet), but we really can't put 3 very important stories all in the same episode and expect to tell them well. Questions such as whether Haleth settling in Brethil happens before or after the Council can certainly be addressed. Mostly I just want to make sure we have space for it to happen somewhere.
I think if we make Episode 2 Aredhel-centric (her departure from Gondolin, journey through Nan Dungortheb, visit to the Fëanoreans, and up to her entrance into Nan Elmoth), that will get her story off to a solid start. We can then tell all of the Nan Elmoth story (getting lost, meeting Eöl, marriage, birth of Maeglin, raising him while 'trapped', etc) over the course of the season in various episodes. Then, we will need a later episode to be focused on Aredhel, most likely Episode 11. That will be her return to Gondolin and death, setting up Maeglin in Gondolin for later. So, Episodes 2 & 11 are focused on Aredhel, and she appears in various episodes between those two.
If we do it this way, we should have plenty of room for our human-centric stories. Like so:
House of Bëor is the primary plotline of Episodes 1 and 8.
House of Bëor has significant plot stories in Episodes 3, 9, and 13.
House of Hador is the primary plotline of Episode 7.
House of Hador has significant plot stories in Episodes 6, 8, possibly 9 and 12.
House of Haleth is the primary plotline of Episode 4.
House of Haleth has significant plot stories in Episodes 5, 6, and potentially 9.
This is a proposed breakdown of the episodes, not a final one, obviously. As we move on to planning the elven storylines, though, it's important to keep in mind how much 'space' the human plotlines are already occupying. It's not a problem (yet), but we really can't put 3 very important stories all in the same episode and expect to tell them well. Questions such as whether Haleth settling in Brethil happens before or after the Council can certainly be addressed. Mostly I just want to make sure we have space for it to happen somewhere.
New constraint, added by Dave in Session 5-09:
Andreth's move to Ladros happens before the death of Haleth, so that Andreth can actually visit Haleth in Brethil and see her there. That doesn't change anything that we already had established, but links two timelines that were previously (mostly) independent.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
At what point do we have the Haladin in Brethil and when do we have Andreth and Aegnor's relationship?
Timeline-wise, or Episode-wise?
I imagine that the Haladin storyline will mostly be an Episodes 4-6 thing, with Andreth's move to Ladros being an Episode 8 story. So, checking in with an elderly Haleth then would probably work out just fine. I would imagine that the Aegnor and Andreth story would be in Episode 9.
Timeline-wise, the battle at the stockade is (tentatively) placed at FA 375, but could potentially occur any time between FA 350 and FA 390. Regardless of when it is, the people of Haleth will be settled in Brethil prior to Andreth's move to Ladros and subsequent relationship with Aegnor, which are slated for the FA 406-425 timeframe.
I imagine that the Haladin storyline will mostly be an Episodes 4-6 thing, with Andreth's move to Ladros being an Episode 8 story. So, checking in with an elderly Haleth then would probably work out just fine. I would imagine that the Aegnor and Andreth story would be in Episode 9.
Timeline-wise, the battle at the stockade is (tentatively) placed at FA 375, but could potentially occur any time between FA 350 and FA 390. Regardless of when it is, the people of Haleth will be settled in Brethil prior to Andreth's move to Ladros and subsequent relationship with Aegnor, which are slated for the FA 406-425 timeframe.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Both timeline and episode-wise. I could see Andreth and the Bëorians stopping by in Brethil as a stopover, but would it work pacing-wise?