Session 5-11: Aredhel and Eöl

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Session 5-11 will be held on Thursday August 13th at 10 PM Eastern Time.

We will be discussing the story of Aredhel and Eöl (including Gondolin), as well as any other miscellaneous elves (such as Thingol, Círdan, Galadriel and Celeborn, and Rhogrin and Annael).

After completing the discussions of the Elves, we will have a session dedicated to the differing worldviews of Men and Elves, and how best to incorporate that into Season 5. Then we will move on to discussing the Villains and the Dwarves.
 
Galadriel and Celeborn: I could see them having a smaller role this season. An idea that came up in the threads awhile back was to have them on their "honeymoon" and bump into the entrance of the Haladin or House of Hador, with Celeborn's sister Galathil being the spokesperson who speaks to Finrod and calls Men their "unfriends". They'll return to Doriath before too long (if too long is 25 years-plus) with Thingol expressing displeasure at Men, in this case the Haladin. Melian will tell Galadriel that one will make their way in (we know it's Beren).
 
Thingol will be difficult to write for the next couple seasons. Of all the Elven rulers, he is the most overtly against having Men around judging by his behavior around the Haladin and Beren next season, mainly because of troubled dreams he has of them (though his opinion changes by the end of Beren and Luthien). He’ll have an opportunity to shine as a commander since Boldog leads an offensive against Doriath where Thingol kills him, but he might need to look more than just an overprotective father who dislikes the man his daughter loves because of who her love interest is.
 
Círdan will probably play a minor role this season. However, I think perhaps there could be a minor scene in which Finrod visits Eglarest along with Beor. We could perhaps come up with something interesting to do with such a meeting.
 
Haakon said:
Círdan will probably play a minor role this season. However, I think perhaps there could be a minor scene in which Finrod visits Eglarest along with Beor. We could perhaps come up with something interesting to do with such a meeting.
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He might show at the end of the season since Orodreth sends Gil-Galad to him shortly after the Dagor Bragollach.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
He might show at the end of the season since Orodreth sends Gil-Galad to him shortly after the Dagor Bragollach.
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Considering the arrival of Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond is a Season 6 event we could introduce him at that point - when we're "on location" and can include him in a story that will happen anyway.

But this is something that shouldn't be decided on a whim but multiple months from now probably, since Gil-Galad is a character we should be developing thoughtfully. He is in a similar position to Galadriel, Elrond, Celebrimbor and Oropher(+Thranduil) - important characters in the later stories that logically had to be around in the First Age, but are insignificant in the published Quenta Silmarillion. We spend a lot more time with them in our series and therefore have to come up with a lot of story details for them...Thinking about this, I'm not even sure we know if Gil-Galad is older or younger than his sister Finduilas. Intuitively I'd be inclined to make him a little older since he's already pretty far down the family tree for his later role of High-King, but I'm also kind of tempted to have him appear (very minorly) as a young elf when Luthien (and maybe even Turin?) are in Nargothrond.
 
Alcarlótë said:
Considering the arrival of Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond is a Season 6 event we could introduce him at that point - when we're "on location" and can include him in a story that will happen anyway.

But this is something that shouldn't be decided on a whim but multiple months from now probably, since Gil-Galad is a character we should be developing thoughtfully. He is in a similar position to Galadriel, Elrond, Celebrimbor and Oropher(+Thranduil) - important characters in the later stories that logically had to be around in the First Age, but are insignificant in the published Quenta Silmarillion. We spend a lot more time with them in our series and therefore have to come up with a lot of story details for them...Thinking about this, I'm not even sure we know if Gil-Galad is older or younger than his sister Finduilas. Intuitively I'd be inclined to make him a little older since he's already pretty far down the family tree for his later role of High-King, but I'm also kind of tempted to have him appear (very minorly) as a young elf when Luthien (and maybe even Turin?) are in Nargothrond.
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In our adaptation he’s younger than Finduilas; Finduilas was a child late last season and Gil-Galad wasn’t born yet.
 
I just read the most recent post on the ‘Elves’ thread (written by Michael Dennis) and it made me think that Finrod and Círdan could have a brief discussion about the status of Men compared to Elves. Finrod could say, ‘the sons of Fëanor consider these Children of Eru inferior to us, and of lesser importance - but I believe that they are full of potential and that it is our duty to teach them about the world, as much as possible’, to which Círdan replies: ‘Well what do we know, perhaps they have a more important role to play than you and I can foresee’.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
In our adaptation he’s younger than Finduilas; Finduilas was a child late last season and Gil-Galad wasn’t born yet.
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Oh, thanks for the information - I still have some catching up to do with all the material that already exists, but hopefully I won't be bothering you veterans too much with the occasional lack of knowledge or question. I guess we'll have to think about when Gil-Galad is actually born in terms of what story of his we want to tell, since there's many possibilities.

If we want him to be different from the other lords of the Noldor and go for a longer character arc, we could keep him out of battles by having him be either too young to fight or be ordered to stay at home/be sent away despite being grown up. On the other hand, having him be a survivor of the Nirnaeth - or even the Bragollach if he's born early this season (although it seems like we already have enough going on without a Minas Tirith plotline) - might make for a great parallel to the later battles he's going to take part in as King. I feel like we shouldn't replicate the published Silmarillion where he's a nobody throughout the First Age despite becoming King.
 
Alcarlótë said:
I still have some catching up to do with all the material that already exists, but hopefully I won't be bothering you veterans too much with the occasional lack of knowledge or question.
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Don't worry! We really appreciate new contributors, so we will have to accept newcomers' process of taking everything in, including the presentation of ideas that contradict decisions that have been made - I mean, it's a lot of stuff, and I also find it's sometimes hard to keep track of it all myself (no, sorry, I don't keep track of everything)- and certainly questions asked.
 
Haakon said:
Don't worry! We really appreciate new contributors, so we will have to accept newcomers' process of taking everything in, including the presentation of ideas that contradict decisions that have been made - I mean, it's a lot of stuff, and I also find it's sometimes hard to keep track of it all myself (no, sorry, I don't keep track of everything)- and certainly questions asked.
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Thank you, very encouraging to hear that =) Judging by the recent messages I read, this is a community I'll enjoy to be part of very much!
 
Question about Fingolfin: how aware will he be of Aredhel's death? This question came up in the past but wasn't satisfactorily resolved.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Question about Fingolfin: how aware will he be of Aredhel's death? This question came up in the past but wasn't satisfactorily resolved.
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I'd default to not at all unless someone has a compelling reason and well-thought-out way to include it, to be honest - communication between Gondolin and the rest of Beleriand takes away from the whole "nobody knows what Turgon does" thing that leads to his appearance at the Nirnaeth being a huge surprise, since noone asked him to help.

Also, they can always meet up next season 😛
 
It probably won't come up this episode (it also fits with the "worldviews" storyline), but in regards to "miscellaneous elves": In a previous episode, Corey mentioned that it would be good to show a parallel between a young Man and a young Elf growing up in Nargothrond at their different speeds and different mindsets. We could fill the role of the young Elf in that story with a young Gil-Galad so he can interact with Finrod and Men from the House of Beor - he will be a major character throughout the Second Age, and it would be awesome to have him old enough to fight alongside Finrod and Barahir during the Bragollach to set up him fighting side-by-side with Numenorean rulers and Elendil in the Second Age. If he's playing a part we're having anyway and a minor character as son of Orodreth he won't need much time. If he appears minorly, but consistently in the Nargothrond storylines (Beren's and Luthien's seperate visits, Turin's stay there) the audience will remember him when Turgon dies and he takes up the Kingship.

Gil-Galad is a character that will get to know so many leaders and rulers of Men throughout his lifetime, and we will have to pay special attention to him to make his Kingship and major role in the Second Age appear less jarring and more meaningful than in the published Silmarillion. Especially establishing that he is somewhat close to and understanding of Men is good set up for the Second Age stories and strengthens the tragedy of the Men of Numenor abandoning their friendship with the Elves.
 
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I agree that Gil-galad's introduction should be carefully considered, and whether he will be present or absent (and why) at certain events is important. We likely should introduce him this season or next, and in Nargothrond rather than Minas Tirith. Most likely, we want him too young to fight in the Dagor Bragollach, but beyond that, there are a lot of potential directions to take his story and character.

Alcarlótë said:
Thank you, very encouraging to hear that =) Judging by the recent messages I read, this is a community I'll enjoy to be part of very much!
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And we enjoy having you! 😀

I do not expect anyone to remember all of the decisions we have made on this project. Well, I mean, I certainly try to keep track, but that's a lot to ask! In general, it's very fair to admit that we have a lot to keep straight:
  • The story as told in the published Silmarillion
  • Alternate versions of stories presented in the History of Middle-Earth or other materials
  • The version we are telling in Silm Film, which may match either of the above or deviate from them in some way
So, yeah, a lot of 'canon' to juggle there! And now that we are 5 seasons deep in this podcast, that's a lot of hours of audio to dig through to find answers to old questions. At various times, people have suggested making a wiki for this project, to keep all of the information straight. If anyone knows how to create something like that and is inclined to take the time to do so, I will do my best to help edit and keep it accurate.
 
MithLuin said:
I agree that Gil-galad's introduction should be carefully considered, and whether he will be present or absent (and why) at certain events is important. We likely should introduce him this season or next, and in Nargothrond rather than Minas Tirith. Most likely, we want him too young to fight in the Dagor Bragollach, but beyond that, there are a lot of potential directions to take his story and character.



And we enjoy having you! 😀

I do not expect anyone to remember all of the decisions we have made on this project. Well, I mean, I certainly try to keep track, but that's a lot to ask! In general, it's very fair to admit that we have a lot to keep straight:
  • The story as told in the published Silmarillion
  • Alternate versions of stories presented in the History of Middle-Earth or other materials
  • The version we are telling in Silm Film, which may match either of the above or deviate from them in some way
  • So, yeah, a lot of 'canon' to juggle there! And now that we are 5 seasons deep in this podcast, that's a lot of hours of audio to dig through to find answers to old questions. At various times, people have suggested making a wiki for this project, to keep all of the information straight. If anyone knows how to create something like that and is inclined to take the time to do so, I will do my best to help edit and keep it accurate.
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The stuff about Gil-Galad that's mentioned in the published Silmarillion is that he's sent to Cirdan; who knows, maybe he and Meril go to Cirdan and Cirdan can have someone to talk to for the next few seasons since Galdor (not the Tall) has gone to Gondolin.

If we want Gil-Galad to have a larger role in Silm Film, why would we have him at Nargothrond? As far as I'm aware, Orodreth is still holding Minas Tirith and it's not slated to fall until next season (unless we have him born while Orodreth is visiting Nargothrond). As far as where we want him to be, he could be present during the Beren and Luthien events in Nargothrond, but might not have much bearing on the plot. He'll likely not take any part in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad since the entire company from Nargothrond that participates in that battle is slaughtered to a man (or Elf), apart from Gwindor who is taken prisoner. Earliest he could take part in events would be Turin in Nargothrond where he would get a front-row seat to Turin's relationship with Finduilas (remember he’s her little brother) and he'll be forced to flee Nargothrond when Glaurung sacks it.
 
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Yes I can see Meril and Gil-G going to Círdan, but perhaps after Dagor Bragollach? Orodreth and Meril would have good reason to make such a move then. Gil-g could be born late this season, and still be a baby or at least very young during Dagor Bragollach.
 
Haakon said:
Yes I can see Meril and Gil-G going to Círdan, but perhaps after Dagor Bragollach? Orodreth and Meril would have good reason to make such a move then. Gil-g could be born late this season, and still be a baby or at least very young during Dagor Bragollach.
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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
 
Besides, we already have another future famous Elf in Nargothrond’s vicinity we’re trying to find a role for: Celebrimbor.
 
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