Session 5-11: Aredhel and Eöl

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Not yet, right? Not until next season.
My point is that if we have Gil-Galad spend much of his time in Nargothrond for the next few seasons, we’d have two characters in the same spot where we’d have the same predicament: a future famous character that we’d be trying to find a larger role for that’s larger than what’s described for them in the books.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
I don't really see why having two different characters (different lineage, different age, different profession/role, different personality) in Nargothrond (where Gil-Galad could be visiting or be sent before/right at the start of the Bragollach, he's one that will be kept safe more than others anyway) is a problem - you can easily have two characters as different as them in the same location without making their stories similar, even if they overlap - it's about what they do and say in the story, not just what they experience. Celebrimbor will be Gil-Galad's main elven political "rival", in the sense that Celebrimbor does his own thing in Eregion. He decides that Annatar can stay despite the High King's adivce (it's telling that Gil-Galad doesn't even try to command Celebrimbor to kick him out). Considering that, it would be nice to establish them having a relationship with each other.

If we're worried about having to invent too much because we have to major characters to develop, isn't it best to have their stories not entirely seperate to save screen time and cut down on the number of plots and locations the viewers have to keep track of? And it's not like they would live entirely in parallel - Celebrimbor only arrives in Season 6 (already an adult) and probably won't play a major role until he decides to stay instead of leaving with his father. After that, there's not much necessary Nargothrond plot until Turin arrives, and we can have Gil-Galad sent away to the havens at any point if people get scared of him taking too much space away from Celebrimbor or something similar...but it's nice to have them know each other for later instead of having them be like "Hi distantly related stranger, guess we're neighbors now" in the Second Age.

Also, I really want Gil-Galad to interact with at least one leader of the House of Beor...he'll have to deal with rulers of the Edain/Dunedain for thousands of years and will end up perishing next to Elendil. He's probably the Elf with the biggest connection to Elf-friends throughout the Ages and we can really deepen his relationship with them if he knows their ancestors and how much better they were compared to the later Numenoreans.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree that Gil-galad's introduction should be carefully considered, and whether he will be present or absent (and why) at certain events is important. We likely should introduce him this season or next, and in Nargothrond rather than Minas Tirith. Most likely, we want him too young to fight in the Dagor Bragollach, but beyond that, there are a lot of potential directions to take his story and character.



And we enjoy having you! :D

I do not expect anyone to remember all of the decisions we have made on this project. Well, I mean, I certainly try to keep track, but that's a lot to ask! In general, it's very fair to admit that we have a lot to keep straight:
  • The story as told in the published Silmarillion
  • Alternate versions of stories presented in the History of Middle-Earth or other materials
  • The version we are telling in Silm Film, which may match either of the above or deviate from them in some way
So, yeah, a lot of 'canon' to juggle there! And now that we are 5 seasons deep in this podcast, that's a lot of hours of audio to dig through to find answers to old questions. At various times, people have suggested making a wiki for this project, to keep all of the information straight. If anyone knows how to create something like that and is inclined to take the time to do so, I will do my best to help edit and keep it accurate.
The best person to ask might be @Nicholas Palazzo , he tried to create a wiki a couple years ago.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To switch gears to Aredhel and Eol: Do we want to have Gondolin's top three escorting Aredhel? There are pros and cons:
  • Pros: If we decide to do so, it'll establish Nan Dungortheb's inhabitants (such as Tevildo) as a credible threat and set them up as formidable opponents for the Haladin to overcome. It would also foreshadow Turgon's overprotective tendencies, which comes to the fore when he ignores Aredhel's dying plea for Eol's life and has him dumped off the walls.
  • Cons: do Gondolin's top three look like wimps and idiots for being unable to defeat the spiders, cats and werewolves of Nan Dungortheb?
Also, can the same effect be accomplished with Red Shirts, in this case soldiers from Turgon's house escorting Aredhel? As a kinsman of Aredhel Glorfindel might be part of the escorting party anyways.

5.09 Thoughts on Eol. Might be more relevant here.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
I feel like Aredhel should have/choose her own guards to come with her instead of being babysat by Turgon all the way - she's his sister, not his subject or protégée. It would be weird to make Aredhel the only grandchild of Finwe to not have any people of her own (Galadriel doesn't have followers either, but she went to Doriath where most Noldor weren't allowed, so the story's sexist bent regarding the distribution of followers doesn't become as apparent with her). Aredhel should be either second-in-command in Turgon's Noble House or the head of one of the other Noble Houses (or, if we don't really delve into those much, be of equal political status to Glorfindel, Ecthelion etc.) - after all, she was the highest-ranking of the people that "advertised" the move to Gondolin. At least she should have, considering her primary hobby, a group of hunters around her.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I feel like Aredhel should have/choose her own guards to come with her instead of being babysat by Turgon all the way - she's his sister, not his subject or protégée. It would be weird to make Aredhel the only grandchild of Finwe to not have any people of her own (Galadriel doesn't have followers either, but she went to Doriath where most Noldor weren't allowed, so the story's sexist bent regarding the distribution of followers doesn't become as apparent with her). Aredhel should be either second-in-command in Turgon's Noble House or the head of one of the other Noble Houses (or, if we don't really delve into those much, be of equal political status to Glorfindel, Ecthelion etc.) - after all, she was the highest-ranking of the people that "advertised" the move to Gondolin. At least she should have, considering her primary hobby, a group of hunters around her.
Well, we currently have her as the head of the House of the Tower of Snow; her lieutenant is Penlod and he takes command when she leaves Gondolin (hence why Penlod is leading two Houses).
 
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Alcarlótë

Active Member
Well, we currently have her as the head of the House of the Tower of Snow; her lieutenant is Penlod and he takes command when she leaves Gondolin.
Hey, the House of the Tower of Snow fitting her well is just what I thought about after writing my last message :D We're really on the same wavelength there.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I kind of like the idea that Aredhel is accompanied by Glorfindel and Ecthelion. I don’t think we should portray it like she needs or wants guards or babysitters. She could just want some good company on the road. They seldom go anywhere, they could feel it will be fun. Then, when they aren’t allowed to pass through Doriath, things look much bleaker and perhaps Glorfindel and the others (if it’s not just Glorfindel) want to turn back. Aredhel could suggest going through Nan Dungortheb but the others could reply that sure they could go that way but is it worth the trouble? They can beat spiders but there must be thousands and wasn’t this supposed to be a leisure journey? She loses patience with them and sneaks off on her own.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
I kind of like the idea that Aredhel is accompanied by Glorfindel and Ecthelion. I don’t think we should portray it like she needs or wants guards or babysitters. She could just want some good company on the road. They seldom go anywhere, they could feel it will be fun. Then, when they aren’t allowed to pass through Doriath, things look much bleaker and perhaps Glorfindel and the others (if it’s not just Glorfindel) want to turn back. Aredhel could suggest going through Nan Dungortheb but the others could reply that sure they could go that way but is it worth the trouble? They can beat spiders but there must be thousands and wasn’t this supposed to be a leisure journey? She loses patience with them and sneaks off on her own.
Sounds good to me :) Her impatience could explain why they don't take the safe route along Doriath's southern border (which is somewhat parallel to Haleth, who unwisely leads her people through this deadly valley as well). If some (whoever they will be in the end) want to go with her and Turgon allows it because he trusts them to keep Gondolin's secret, it feels a lot better. Turgon will always look a bit hypocritical letting Aredhel (and her companions) leave while forcing Eol and Maeglin to stay, but that's fine with me - this story is where Turgon's moral decline towards refusing Ulmo's advice and getting his people killed begins, after all.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
My immediate reaction to finding out that two characters are in the same place at the same time (at a point in their lives that is background timeline filling rather than existing narrative) is to make them be friends. Exhibit A, Bilbo and Estel in Rivendell during Bilbo's Adventure. Exhibit B, apparently, could be Gil-galad and Celebrimbor in Nargothrond as youths. We've got a blank slate with them here. Any reason why they wouldn't be inseparable besties? What if they are the same age? It means we can have twice the screentime for them, if they are together.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
My immediate reaction to finding out that two characters are in the same place at the same time (at a point in their lives that is background timeline filling rather than existing narrative) is to make them be friends. Exhibit A, Bilbo and Estel in Rivendell during Bilbo's Adventure. Exhibit B, apparently, could be Gil-galad and Celebrimbor in Nargothrond as youths. We've got a blank slate with them here. Any reason why they wouldn't be inseparable besties? What if they are the same age? It means we can have twice the screentime for them, if they are together.
Well they’re not quite the same age or generation, Celebrimbor was an adult when Orodreth met Meril (Gil-Galad's mother).
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Yes but Celebrimbor and Orodreth are more or less buddies, right? So Celebrimbor is like an extra uncle to Gil-G, and could feel he should support him or guide him, and feel superior to him (and later not necessarily do what the High King says).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes but Celebrimbor and Orodreth are more or less buddies, right? So Celebrimbor is like an extra uncle to Gil-G, and could feel he should support him or guide him, and feel superior to him (and later not necessarily do what the High King says).
I could get with that.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-11: Storylines pt. 7

Aredhel and Eöl

Aredhel made a decision to go along with Turgon in Season 4. Going to Gondolin wasn’t a retreat; it was taking action to follow the vision that Ulmo sent to Turgon. Gondolin was a refuge to protect the people and a strategic move in the war against Morgoth.

Aredhel will get restless in Gondolin with Turgon’s desire to preserve everything as it was. Things will not be going well on Gondolin at the start of Season 5. Turgon makes a speech about Gondolin before his two replica trees. Aredhel could notice that Turgon’s vision has changed. It will not be foresight, but rather remembering what Turgon originally said.

Aredhel has a big fight with Turgon, but she wants to leave to have some space. This confrontation with Aredhel makes Turgon more stubborn. He will not be all the way to the point where he denies Ulmo yet, but we will set that up. Turgon will look good when he confronts Eöl. Idril will still have misgivings.

Even though Turgon forbids it, Aredhel goes to the Fëanorians because she thinks it strategically important to keep diplomatic relations with them. She might envision herself as Gondolin’s connection to the outside world. She thinks Gondolin should keep up with what is going on in the outside world.

Aredhel will journey through Nan Dungortheb before Haleth and her people. Aredhel is on a mission, not a migration like the Men. Aredhel will be interested to learn about the coming of Men.

Aredhel and Eöl’s love story will end in tragedy, just like Andreth and Aegnor’s. Aredhel will meet Eöl early in the season and return to Gondolin near the end. It will mostly frame the Andreth and Aegnor story. We will show the progress of Aredhel and Eöl’s relationship and the unhappy childhood of Maeglin. There will be lots of opportunities to juxtapose Aredhel and Eöl and Andreth and Aegnor, so we can make them somewhat parallel.

What does “not wholly unwilling” mean?

Eöl is charming in the beginning of their relationship. Their relationship is not based purely on romantic attraction or Aredhel rebelling against Turgon. Eöl offers Aredhel the opportunity to engage with the world. He is like the person she wanted Turgon to be. Aredhel sees marrying Eöl as part of her mission, not just a personal thing. She has political goals. Aredhel enters into the marriage because of her principles, but she may not care for Eöl as a person.

Eöl is a great smith and invents galvorn. He also has connections with the Dwarves. Aredhel realizes that Caranthir did not to a good job getting an alliance with the Dwarves, so she sees Eöl as a way to make a better alliance for the war. Aredhel comes out of Gondolin wanting to help with the war. Eöl is not seriously interested in helping form an alliance between Eöl and the Dwarves. Aredhel’s pride and overconfidence make her think she will be able to change his mind, but she fails. None of the other Noldor saw the opportunity to use Eöl to form the alliance with the Dwarves. Aredhel ignores the warning signs and believes she can bring Eöl around to her viewpoint. Kind of like Beauty and the Beast.

Aredhel is chooses of her own free will to stay with Eöl.

Aredhel may foresee that her son is destined to play a pivotal role in the war with Morgoth.

Eöl desires to possess Aredhel. He projects his hatred of the Noldor onto her and sees controlling her as a way of getting back at the Noldor. This can be shown subtly; it is part of Eöl’s personality.

The first episode with Aredhel and Eöl will look like an actual romance. Dark and light attracted to each other, red flags ignored. Aredhel will be rescued by Eöl. Eöl will have parallels with Beren.

Eöl’s silent servants can be Avari who stay with him.

Aredhel can hear Eöl’s backstory from him. He can tell her the truth, but only from his own perspective. He was one of the original Elves who awoke by Cuiviénen. He knew Finwë and will be sad to hear of his death. He has a rational reason for not going to Valinor. Aredhel sees not going to Valinor as wisdom. His story about Thingol is a story of oppression and betrayal. Aredhel is impressed by the story of the meteor and invention of galvorn.

Eöl and Aredhel’s relationship will gradually get worse. She might travel with him at first, then he gradually imposes more restrictions. Eöl and Aredhel could meet Amras and some Dwarves. The meeting with Amras would go badly, but Eöl would blame it on the Noldor not accepting him. They could meet some Dwarves, and Eöl could speak to them in Khuzdul. There might be a gap between the translation he gives Aredhel and the subtitles. (They might be warning Aredhel about Eöl) When Maeglin is born, Eöl just calls him “my son” and does not give him a name. Eöl can discourage Aredhel from telling stories about Gondolin. It would be one of the first warning signs. Aredhel will see that she failed to change Eöl. Maeglin will rescue her by suggesting they run away. Maeglin may perceive the truth about Eöl’s backstory, but he may not tell Aredhel the exact truth either.

Maeglin is Aredhel’s last hope. She sacrifices herself for him. Maeglin says nothing a lot. The audience should wonder what is going on his head. He will not be a villain yet at the end of this season.

Next session will be about miscellaneous Elves (Círdan, Thingol, Gil-galad, Galadriel and Celeborn, Rhogrin and Annael) and maybe villains.
 
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