Session 5-12: Miscellaneous Elves and Villains

[Alcarlótë]

I've noted before that the Findulias/Turin story is one where Tolkien subverts the trope in a different way. Turin is given the opportunity to save a "damsel in distress" but then fails. Completely.

It's an interesting twist, but in this Finduilas has even less substance than if the trope was played straight and she was rescued - choosing to marry her saviour and living with him happily ever after involves more agency and character development than being held captive until you're speared to a tree. Tropes aren't automatically bad - I'm not chiefly concerned with subverting tropes, or expectations like our formerly beloved showrunners D&D 😀. But I'm worried that she will just be there for Turin's sake, a MacGuffin rather than a character that actually decides and does things like a person would.

I think it's also worth remembering that the "warrior=superior" and "civilian=inferior" tropes are equally harmful. Findulias does not have to be a fighter to be cool or interesting. It doesn't make her better. It just makes her different.

This isn't really just about the tropes either, in my opinion ^^ Beleriand will be in a state of basically constant total war, where fighting is essential to survival and therefore everything else - participating in the fighting yourself is more productive and selfless than letting others protect yourself without you protecting them. In our past, women often were considered unfit to fight in wars and therefore didn't come under moral scrutiny for not fighting - nobody expected them to, usually they were even forbidden from doing so. In an Elven society you can have the same dynamic with Fighters and Healers instead of dividing by gender lines, but is that really so well-established in our viewer's minds? If you show an army with a decent number of women, viewers that aren't really into the deeper conventions of Elven society will see that the default assumption of women not fighting doesn't apply here, which opens up all the non-fighters to questions about their justifications for letting others keeping them safe from death or enslavement by the literal embodiment of Evil, especially if the people that tried to defend them lose and die (which will happen a lot).

Exposing and justifying the Fighter/Healer dynamic would help with this issue and be another way of differentiating Men and Elves, but to do that in a "show, don't (just) tell" way we need women that fight and men that don't, without either of them looking out of place - to make the viewers aware of this conscious break of the conventions many would expect to apply. In that way, civilian and warrior roles aren't equal either.

Also, the Elves we have shown are often not just either a warrior or a civilian - the ones that fight have other proficiencies as well. It's not a question of A (civilian) or B (warrior) like in many settings, it's a question of what kind of things the character can do - do they have "civilian" skills and "warrior" skills or just civilian skills? Generally, the former will look more impressive than the latter. Finrod is a philsopher and a warrior, Maglor is a great minstrel and a warrior, Curufin is a cunning schemer and a warrior, Fingolfin is a swordsmith (at least he could reforge his own) and a warrior, Beleg is a great ranger and a warrior. I fear that it will look like someone who has a profession but isn't also a warrior is just missing something compared to all the warriors that are great in multiple fields. They might need something else character-wise and/or story-wise to make up for that in the eyes of the viewer, which can be afforded to major characters but not to all.


Thinking further along those lines, having someone take part in a battle in this kind of environment is an effective and screentime-saving way of showcasing a character and getting the audience to feel attachment towards them, especially if they perform well and/or are in danger. Sure, you can do a lot more for a character - with good dialogue, with a challenge to overcome and many other events and techniques that constitute a well-constructed character arc. But are we really going to have time for many minor character's awesome civilian life story when, between our own flood of ideas and the host's requirements, it comes down what can and should fit into those 13 episodes per season?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

This isn't really just about the tropes either, in my opinion ^^ Beleriand will be in a state of basically constant total war, where fighting is essential to survival and therefore everything else - participating in the fighting yourself is more productive and selfless than letting others protect yourself without you protecting them.

I don't know that I can agree with the premise that the Elves of Beleriand are in a state of "total war". The one major military engagement up to this point took place before Findulias' birth. She grew up during the "Long Peace". While minor engagements do take place prior to Dagor Bragollach, they do not really involved the western front, where Findulias is located. Once the Dagor Bragollach takes place, Findulias' people settle in Nargothrond, which is watchful, not warlike. I would say that her situation wouldn't have been that different from someone living in the US. In the 38 years I've been alive, the US has been in a de facto state of war near constantly. I do hope that no one has thought me selfish for not participating.

And to suggest that people who have primarily civilian roles are somehow not contributing says something I'm not entirely comfortable with.

Exposing and justifying the Fighter/Healer dynamic would help with this issue and be another way of differentiating Men and Elves, but to do that in a "show, don't (just) tell" way we need women that fight and men that don't, without either of them looking out of place - to make the viewers aware of this conscious break of the conventions many would expect to apply. In that way, civilian and warrior roles aren't equal either.

This has certainly been demonstrated by now. And we've also demonstrated that we warrior=/=better.

It's not a question of A (civilian) or B (warrior) like in many settings, it's a question of what kind of things the character can do - do they have "civilian" skills and "warrior" skills or just civilian skills? Generally, the former will look more impressive than the latter.

The final sentence of this passage is something we have been endeavoring to deconstruct for some time now, even from Season 1. Aulë isn't inferior to Tulkas. Sauron isn't inferior to Gothmog. Daeron isn't inferior to Mablung.

 

[MithLuin]

Okay, here is the primary issue. Finduilas, who has been alive for almost 200 years before she meets Túrin, could really use a life and a story of her own prior to her involvement with Túrin. The audience should have some inkling of her character and view point before we introduce Túrin at all.

So...who do we want her to be?

Meril, her mother, has definitely been a positive (if minor) character. Meril and Orodreth were 'young innocent lovers' at the Mereth Aderthad, an uncomplicated meeting of Sindar and Noldor that resulted in happy dancing and an off-screen wedding. Immediately after that, Orodreth's mother was made captive by Angband and the truth of the Kinslaying was revealed. Thus, Orodreth was subjected to a darker, more traumatizing story, as he rescued his mother only to see her deteriorate and then be killed in battle. By the end of Season 4, Orodreth is not so certain he wants to bring children of his own into the world, with Middle-earth being so bleak and dangerous. Meril is patient with him, but tries to coax him out of his grief and depression, convincing him of hope and brightness for the future. So, we've shown her as a gentle, encouraging, thoughtful wife, but one who does not actually share her husband's grief. Meril also finds herself as a Sinda in-law among the Noldor during the tension resulting from Thingol's ban. So, she is someone who quietly bears that rather than being overly defensive of her own people.

Then Finduilas and Gil-galad are born, so clearly that means Meril won that discussion (elves don't have children by surprise - it's always completely deliberate). Who is Finduilas? We can see her this season, and if she's visiting Nargothrond, she can meet mortals for the first time, and have an opinion about them. Next season, she will be living in Nargothrond with Finrod as king and Celegorm and Curufin as 'guests'. She can have an opinion about Finrod leaving on a quest for the silmaril and leaving her dad in charge. She can have an opinion on Celegorm locking Lúthien up and demanding her hand in marriage. She could play a minor role in the 'opposition' when the Fëanoreans basically take over Nargothrond.

Season 7 focuses on the lead-up to the Nirnaeth. Nargothrond does not fully support that. I mean, obviously, that's because Curufin and Celegorm are responsible for making no effort to prevent Finrod's death. So, Orodreth doesn't join Maedhros' plan. But that also means he doesn't support Fingon, the High King. That's a bit more fraught. Orodreth is always portrayed as wishy-washy. This is an opportunity to show him firmly sticking to his 'no aid for Fëanoreans' principle, even though Celebrimbor (his friend) lives in Nargothrond. But Gwindor ends up at the Nirnaeth. So some military support comes from Nargothrond....I think that is the drama we see playing out there - to aid or not to aid. With Orodreth, Celebrimbor, Gwindor, and Finduilas all having opinions and positions. [And Gil-galad too, though he may be with Círdan by this point.] I think this is where we show Gwindor and Finduilas' romance - in the lead up to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. And they are engaged, but not married, because....elves, time of war, etc.

And then Túrin happens, and he wants to build a bridge, but Gwindor doesn't, and this time Orodreth listens to Túrin, not Gwindor, and Finduilas chooses Túrin, not Gwindor. So, Túrin is the newcomer, but we've seen all these elves interact before.




There are a lot of reasons not to throw your entire population into military endeavors. For one, the army needs to eat. So you must always have farmers and supportive supply chain, with up to 90% of military forces being non-combat positions in a modern setting. I know this from sitting around listening to military wives talk about what their husbands do for work - not everyone is 'Enlisted Marines Infantry,' and not everyone comes back from deployment having killed people in combat.

But it's more than that. The traditional reason women are not included in military actions is because you have to protect the next generation, so if the women stay home to raise the kids, you have a future that you would not have if they were being killed off in battle. Obviously you need some men for that to happen, too...but, logistically, men are slightly more expendable in this regard. There have been times in history when war took out too many men and caused issues. Lot fewer men than women in the 16-35 demographic in post-WWII Germany.

These are very utilitarian views. There are other, less utilitarian, but no less important, reasons not to send everyone into combat. One is to prevent the death of your culture. The arts, the history, the education of the next generation, the way of life - all of that must be preserved and not 'put on hold' during a war, or it will be lost. Faramir is a voice for this caution - he does not love the sword for its brightness, only that which it defends. Sure, it's important for him to take up arms to protect Gondor and the city of Minas Tirith. He is trained for that, and he does so. But what he is protecting...is not just a means to raise an army, but rather a people with a history and an entire Numenorean way of life. That *matters* to him, and it should matter to every civilization. Poland had the misfortune to be invaded by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in 1939. Polish resistance certainly included guerilla warfare actions -blowing stuff up, cutting off communications, stealing supplies, etc. But there was also cultural resistance, where university students were trained in secret and Polish plays were held in private homes to keep their culture alive and things like that. Both were needed. Obviously, things were lost. Entire Jewish communities were wiped out. Professors were shot. Books were burned. Art was stolen and destroyed. Schools were closed. Poland today is not without its troubles stemming from that time. But the point is that when occupied, Poland's government in exile did not devote all resources to strictly *military* resistance, and Polish citizens did not limit their resistance to armed, militant resistance, either.

I don't think anyone is going to ask why the Elves are not more like Sparta. I think the audience will understand the goals of cultural preservation behind Menegroth, Nargothrond, and Gondolin. Showing characters lending aid to that support will be part of our story; we have an average of one battle per season, with 2 battles in Season 3 and none in seasons 2 or 6. Warfare is important, but it's quite obviously not the entire story.

 

[Alcarlótë]

I don't know that I can agree with the premise that the Elves of Beleriand are in a state of "total war". The one major military engagement up to this point took place before Findulias' birth. She grew up during the "Long Peace". While minor engagements do take place prior to Dagor Bragollach, they do not really involved the western front, where Findulias is located. Once the Dagor Bragollach takes place, Findulias' people settle in Nargothrond, which is watchful, not warlike. I would say that her situation wouldn't have been that different from someone living in the US. In the 38 years I've been alive, the US has been in a de facto state of war near constantly. I do hope that no one has thought me selfish for not participating.

Sure, before the Bragollach that's untrue - but Finduilas' story is mostly happening after it, and it was the post-Bragollach timeframe I was thinking of. Could've have made that clearer ^^

And it's true that after she and her father are driven out of Minas Tirith, Nargothrond mostly shies away from open warfare until Turin arrives. But that the Nargothrondians, apart from a small group under Gwindor, don't show up for the Nirnaeth makes them look pretty bad - even Turgon comes! Also, our show isn't focussing on Nargothrond only, so the viewers will have a more conflict-focused and danger-aware perspective than the Elves of Nargothrond. Even in the Silmarillion, they devolve into ruthless isolationists shooting at everyone who comes near their city. If we're saying we want to make Finduilas look bad in that way it isn't a problem, but I don't think that's a good direction for her.

About the comparison to the real world - we always expect more of fictional, heroic characters in a TV show than we would from real people around us. And the all-or-nothing war for Beleriand against the devil is very different than fighting abroad for the sake of imperial politics. Within the framework of our stories, the Elves are actually heroes, protecting Middle-Earth and defending their people from a threat. That's why war, unlike most modern conflicts, can actually be positive and justified in our series 😀

And to suggest that people who have primarily civilian roles are somehow not contributing says something I'm not entirely comfortable with.

The final sentence of this passage is something we have been endeavoring to deconstruct for some time now, even from Season 1. Aulë isn't inferior to Tulkas. Sauron isn't inferior to Gothmog. Daeron isn't inferior to Mablung.

I agree! I didn't mean to suggest that civilian roles are useless (even though I made a seperate argument towards them being less essential in-universe and for the viewers; and I doubt we can get erase that from all minds in the context of this story). What I was explaining is that profession X+warrior is very common in our series and better than profession X+nothing. All I need for that premise to be true is that being a warrior isn't seen as worthless, which is true for neither the characters nor the viewers.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Okay, here is the primary issue. Finduilas, who has been alive for almost 200 years before she meets Túrin, could really use a life and a story of her own prior to her involvement with Túrin. The audience should have some inkling of her character and view point before we introduce Túrin at all.

So...who do we want her to be?

Meril, her mother, has definitely been a positive (if minor) character. Meril and Orodreth were 'young innocent lovers' at the Mereth Aderthad, an uncomplicated meeting of Sindar and Noldor that resulted in happy dancing and an off-screen wedding. Immediately after that, Orodreth's mother was made captive by Angband and the truth of the Kinslaying was revealed. Thus, Orodreth was subjected to a darker, more traumatizing story, as he rescued his mother only to see her deteriorate and then be killed in battle. By the end of Season 4, Orodreth is not so certain he wants to bring children of his own into the world, with Middle-earth being so bleak and dangerous. Meril is patient with him, but tries to coax him out of his grief and depression, convincing him of hope and brightness for the future. So, we've shown her as a gentle, encouraging, thoughtful wife, but one who does not actually share her husband's grief. Meril also finds herself as a Sinda in-law among the Noldor during the tension resulting from Thingol's ban. So, she is someone who quietly bears that rather than being overly defensive of her own people.

Then Finduilas and Gil-galad are born, so clearly that means Meril won that discussion (elves don't have children by surprise - it's always completely deliberate). Who is Finduilas? We can see her this season, and if she's visiting Nargothrond, she can meet mortals for the first time, and have an opinion about them. Next season, she will be living in Nargothrond with Finrod as king and Celegorm and Curufin as 'guests'. She can have an opinion about Finrod leaving on a quest for the silmaril and leaving her dad in charge. She can have an opinion on Celegorm locking Lúthien up and demanding her hand in marriage. She could play a minor role in the 'opposition' when the Fëanoreans basically take over Nargothrond.

Season 7 focuses on the lead-up to the Nirnaeth. Nargothrond does not fully support that. I mean, obviously, that's because Curufin and Celegorm are responsible for making no effort to prevent Finrod's death. So, Orodreth doesn't join Maedhros' plan. But that also means he doesn't support Fingon, the High King. That's a bit more fraught. Orodreth is always portrayed as wishy-washy. This is an opportunity to show him firmly sticking to his 'no aid for Fëanoreans' principle, even though Celebrimbor (his friend) lives in Nargothrond. But Gwindor ends up at the Nirnaeth. So some military support comes from Nargothrond....I think that is the drama we see playing out there - to aid or not to aid. With Orodreth, Celebrimbor, Gwindor, and Finduilas all having opinions and positions. [And Gil-galad too, though he may be with Círdan by this point.] I think this is where we show Gwindor and Finduilas' romance - in the lead up to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. And they are engaged, but not married, because....elves, time of war, etc.

And then Túrin happens, and he wants to build a bridge, but Gwindor doesn't, and this time Orodreth listens to Túrin, not Gwindor, and Finduilas chooses Túrin, not Gwindor. So, Túrin is the newcomer, but we've seen all these elves interact before.




There are a lot of reasons not to throw your entire population into military endeavors. For one, the army needs to eat. So you must always have farmers and supportive supply chain, with up to 90% of military forces being non-combat positions in a modern setting. I know this from sitting around listening to military wives talk about what their husbands do for work - not everyone is 'Enlisted Marines Infantry,' and not everyone comes back from deployment having killed people in combat.

But it's more than that. The traditional reason women are not included in military actions is because you have to protect the next generation, so if the women stay home to raise the kids, you have a future that you would not have if they were being killed off in battle. Obviously you need some men for that to happen, too...but, logistically, men are slightly more expendable in this regard. There have been times in history when war took out too many men and caused issues. Lot fewer men than women in the 16-35 demographic in post-WWII Germany.

These are very utilitarian views. There are other, less utilitarian, but no less important, reasons not to send everyone into combat. One is to prevent the death of your culture. The arts, the history, the education of the next generation, the way of life - all of that must be preserved and not 'put on hold' during a war, or it will be lost. Faramir is a voice for this caution - he does not love the sword for its brightness, only that which it defends. Sure, it's important for him to take up arms to protect Gondor and the city of Minas Tirith. He is trained for that, and he does so. But what he is protecting...is not just a means to raise an army, but rather a people with a history and an entire Numenorean way of life. That *matters* to him, and it should matter to every civilization. Poland had the misfortune to be invaded by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in 1939. Polish resistance certainly included guerilla warfare actions -blowing stuff up, cutting off communications, stealing supplies, etc. But there was also cultural resistance, where university students were trained in secret and Polish plays were held in private homes to keep their culture alive and things like that. Both were needed. Obviously, things were lost. Entire Jewish communities were wiped out. Professors were shot. Books were burned. Art was stolen and destroyed. Schools were closed. Poland today is not without its troubles stemming from that time. But the point is that when occupied, Poland's government in exile did not devote all resources to strictly *military* resistance, and Polish citizens did not limit their resistance to armed, militant resistance, either.

I don't think anyone is going to ask why the Elves are not more like Sparta. I think the audience will understand the goals of cultural preservation behind Menegroth, Nargothrond, and Gondolin. Showing characters lending aid to that support will be part of our story; we have an average of one battle per season, with 2 battles in Season 3 and none in seasons 2 or 6. Warfare is important, but it's quite obviously not the entire story.

On that... why do Hurin and Huor bring every able-bodied man to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad? That left the women and children and the elderly fair game for the Easterlings. It’s something I’ve puzzled about for years.

 

[Haakon]

Reading the latest posts about Finduilas, I feel certain that we can create a fleshed out story that doesn't differ that much from the PubSil, but make it much more interesting. We don't have to make her a warrior to make her active and influence important events, we have a number of good suggestions already.

I always try to keep Círdan and his story in mind, and I am a bit worried that the Havens becomes just a place where people find refuge and he is just a nice guy by the sea without a story of his own. He risks becoming totally uninteresting, at all times, because the drama is almost always somewhere else.
I suggested a scene with him and Finrod (Post #8 in the thread Aredhel and Eöl: "I just read the most recent post on the ‘Elves’ thread (written by Michael Dennis) and it made me think that Finrod and Círdan could have a brief discussion about the status of Men compared to Elves. Finrod could say, ‘the sons of Fëanor consider these Children of Eru inferior to us, and of lesser importance - but I believe that they are full of potential and that it is our duty to teach them about the world, as much as possible’, to which Círdan replies: ‘Well what do we know, perhaps they have a more important role to play than you and I can foresee’.")
I also want to mention his mission and think a little about how he handles that at this point in time, and also about the Eglath (or Eglain), the Forsaken (actually all of the Sindar but the concept seems to be attached especially to the Falathrim, perhaps we could say it is a term they use more than other Sindar do). The Valar have not been moving in a direction that helps Círdan in his mission. The Noldor were not sent as emissaries or to help the Elves of Middle-earth - on the contrary, they have caused conflict and many of them are kinslayers - and while the Valar created the Sun and the Moon to bring light against the Dark Lord, they have also established a barrier between Middle-earth and Valinor. Círdan's mission should seem close to hopeless. Does he get more dreams from Ulmo? Or Olórin (since we perhaps use him this season, or perhaps we should just stick to Ulmo)? Or perhaps he doesn't need such boosts. In that case, why not? What makes him keep his hopes up? It would be interesting to show something of that.

 

[Alcarlótë]

I think Cirdan is one of the more interesting characters precisely because he's always just there in the background doing his job faithfully, being wise and foresighted and growing his awesome beard 😀 But that might just be my peculiar taste, and I can see why he would be a bit boring and fade into the background for many. I don't really mind that since we have like 15 seasons of him left, in many of which he'll be far higher on the "Most relevant Elves" chart than he is now. Most of the prominent characters we have now will die in the next few seasons, and they deserve their time in the spotlight.

But we should at least keep Cirdan relevant, right? I think Gil-Galad arriving to live with him in one or two Seasons will give us a great opportunity to set up their long-lasting relationship and Cirdan's eventual succession of Gil-Galad as ruler of Lindon. For this season...well I don't think he needs a dream or some vague message to remain hopeful. He's most blessed with foresight of all the Elves and the shining example of the concept of Estel, High Hope. He knows things look bad (especially after the Bragollach), but he knows the Valar told him to stay for a reason - and he will be proven right when the Teleri ships arrive for the War of Wrath. He could even meet Olwe again at that point, that would be sweet 🙂

I like the scene you proposed, and we could totally include him visiting Finrod. He would be a great person to have around when Finrod and Andreth discuss the matter of Men and Elves' differences and the resulting difficulties of living together. It would be an opportunity to show him not as just a nice guy by the sea, but as someone very focused on the future and the big picture - almost aloof, contrary to Andreth's more practical concerns which will lead her into an unhappy relationship and her people into ruin because she thought it'd be in their best interests to settle on the devil's doorstep 😀 Cirdan could know what that'll lead to, but see that it is a helpful step in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Alcarlótë]

And to come at least near the rails this thread started on...I'm very excited for this next episode! I really want to hear what the hosts think of Huan's and Thuringwethil's roles in this last season they get to survive.

 

[Haakon]

I think talking about Círdan is on track, don't you?

 

[Alcarlótë]

I think talking about Círdan is on track, don't you?

True, you've already gotten me back on it - thank you for the rescue 😀 You're a much better train than I am.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

@MithLuin, could you please retain my most recent note for the Hosts for next session?

Also, what did we decide for the House of Hador because I had a Sauron plotline wrapped up in it.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Something else for the Villains’ storyline: who do we want to have as the architect behind the Dagor Bragollach? I could imagine it being Morgoth and Glaurung but that’s about it.

 

[Rhiannon]

Session 5-12

Possible scene with Galadriel and Celeborn meeting Treebeard. The separation of the Ents and Entwives can happen during the Second Age.

We will need to later plot out Galadriel’s story into the Second and Third Ages, which will mean answering questions like why she remains at the end of the First Age, how she interacts with Celebrimbor and the Dwarves of Moria, and why she is not part of the Battle of the Last Alliance.

Galadriel and Celeborn went to Ossiriand at the end of last season. They will have the opportunity to interact with Men when the House of Hador and Green-elves become unfriends.

We don’t want the unfriendship of the Green-elves and Men to look just like the Elves and Dwarves. Dwarves and Elves came into conflict because Dwarves were drawing resources from the forest. Men might try to settle and clear farmland. They may not know the Green-elves live there at first.

The House of Hador will be a large, disorganized, spread-out group before the Council in Estolad. Some will have positive experiences with Elves; some will have negative experiences, which will lead to the divisions that come up in the Council. Those interested in fighting the Elves have probably only seen the Green-elves, not the Fëanorians. A portion of them can try to settle in Ossiriand and be attacked by the Green-elves. They might assume the Green-elves are servants of Morgoth. Hador will not personally have a negative experience with the Green-elves.

The Green-elves will not be merely xenophobic; they will draw logical conclusions about Men. When the Green-elves first see Men, they will be dismayed and fearful that Men are like Orcs. They might perceive that Men are tainted by Morgoth (not corrupted). Finrod befriending the House of Bëor will convince them that Men are not Orcs. When the House of Hador arrives, the Elves will hide and watch and be disturbed by their behavior, perhaps a strict moral/legal code that includes capital punishment or a small brawl in which a few people die. If we show Elves being disturbed by capital punishment, it can make the execution of Eöl seem like a red flag for Turgon. Men would be somewhat destructive to the environment as well.

The Men can seem morally upright. They can execute someone for a horrible crime like rape. The Elves would just come across the hanging corpse and be horrified by it. They might even think the corpse is a sacrifice to Morgoth. Although disturbed, the Green-elves would be fine as long as Men continue moving out of their land. The real tension will come when Men start to settle in Ossiriand. Galathil (Celeborn’s sister, spokesperson for the Green-elves) will go to Galadriel and Celeborn for advice and help dealing with the Men. She can deliver the line about being unfriends. If Men do not leave, the Green-elves attack.

Galadriel would be disturbed by the actions of Men and may start off with an anti-Men perspective, which will change over the course of this and later seasons.

Galadriel may have given up her ambition of ruling among the Noldor, but she may want to set up a new kingdom of her own. She might think that the Green-elves in Ossiriand need a ruler. She wouldn’t try to take over, but they would come to her more and more for guidance. Some Green-elves might go east with Galadriel when she leaves. Galadriel and Celeborn should stay in Beleriand at least until the death of Lúthien.

It’s okay for the audience to be a little uncomfortable with Galadriel and the followers she attracts.

Celeborn won’t just be Galadriel’s silent sidekick; he will recognize that she is a leader and defer to her, but he will help support her. He might encourage the Green-elves, particularly his sister Galathil, to accept Galadriel. He is more introverted than Galadriel and does not really want to be a leader. Galadriel appreciates Celeborn’s wisdom.

Galadriel won’t have an extreme viewpoint on Men like Finrod or Thingol. Galadriel would be on the Green-elves side against Men but fairly openminded. She and Celeborn can investigate and figure out the reason for the hanging. She would then tell the Men not to settle in Ossiriand. When Galadriel goes back to Menegroth, she will hear Thingol say that no Men will come into his realm and think that is a bad idea.

Next session, we will talk about Thingol and then Círdan.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

There's not much to discuss on Thingol; he could be troubled by visions of Men turning on the Elves at the Nirnaeth and perhaps Beren taking Luthien away from him where he will outlive Luthien.

 

[Alcarlótë]

Thank you for the summary Rhiannon - it's hard to remember even close to everything after watching these sessions so early in the morning 😀

Galadriel certainly has a distant relationship with her mannish neighbors in the Third Age and it seems like she's in a similar segregationist spot during this season. But what happens inbetween can certainly be different, especially in her relationship with the Numenoreans and their fall.

I really like the idea of Galadriel and Celeborn slowly going in the direction of having their own realm. It sets up their future development and gives us some room for other characters in Doriath - Daeron and Saeros will reach peak importance before leaving the stage over the next seasons, and I remember that we eventually wanted to intruduce Oropher living in Doriath. There's also Nimloth, daughter-in-law of Beren and Luthien who shouldn't come out of nowhere. And maybe we're having Amdir as well? If yes, he should probably get to know Galadriel and Celeborn at some point considering they'll inofficially succeed him in ruling Lorien.

Concerning the Green Elves and their affairs with Men, I'd like to include the Ents in this as well - one key difference between the Dwarves and Men in Ossiriand is that the Dwarves send logging parties there while Men journey, work and live there. Considering they just arrived in Ossiriand, the House of Hador will need to do a lot of hunting and gathering to survive before they can establish themselves; there's an opportunity to not go for the "They're killing trees!" Ent scene that we had with the dwarves again here. If they trample around in and completely gather one of the Entwife's gardens empty, it would provoke hostile reactions from the Ents and their friends - an ultimatum to leave their precious lands, a warning that their behaviour won't be tolerated anymore or even minor violent conflicts. Some Men might not take the wandering and spread out Green Elves seriously as a threat and desire to fight them, but considering the Mannish level of technology at that point I can't imagine they're keen on taking on Ents which would force the Men (and Galadriel+Celeborn?) to solve the issue before large-scale violence ensues.

There's not much to discuss on Thingol; he could be troubled by visions of Men turning on the Elves at the Nirnaeth and perhaps Beren taking Luthien away from him where he will outlive Luthien.

I certainly think we should do something concerning Thingol and Luthien outliving each other at some point! It's really a unique situation...in terms of his marriage, Thingol's death was only a temporary disruption, but Luthien is gone at least until the Last Battle. She dies, comes back, he dies, she dies and leaves Ea, he comes back (after his stay in Mandos is over). He shouldn't take too long to come back, since if we show Legolas and Gimli arriving in Valinor at the end of SilmFilm, Thingol would have a thing or two to say about Legolas bringing a dwarf with him 😀 On the other hand, it'd be poetic to have Thingol overcome his grievances with the Dwarves in the end, because they were a big reason for the hostility between the two species in the first place.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Depends on how much time we want to spend in the Halls of Mandos.