Session 5-13 and 5-14: Last of the Elves + Villains

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Updated: Session 5-13 was held on Thursday September 10th at 10 PM. We discussed three of the remaining Elves (Thingol, Círdan, and Gil-Galad).

Session 5-14 will be held on Thursday September 24th at 10 PM Eastern time. We will be discussing Rhogrin and Annael, as well as the villain plotlines for this season. The discussion of Huan will likely be saved for a later session, but if we don't get to him this time, we will come back to him later!

For the Villains, we now have the following cast of characters:

  • Morgoth
  • Gothmog
  • Sauron
  • Glaurung
  • Thuringwethil
  • Tevildo
  • Draugluin
  • Boldog

It is worth pointing out that Tevildo will die this season, while Thuringwethil, Draugluin, (and Boldog?) will meet their ends next season. The main villain plots will be:
  • Catch-and-Release program
  • Attack on the Stockade
  • Fake!Amlach
  • Whatever Tevildo is doing in Brethil
  • Dagor Bragollach
 
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For Orodreth’s family, some topics of discussion could be when he’s born and how much he’d be interacting with Men, chiefly the House of Beor.
 
Gil-Galad certainly is a carte blanche in this season; apart from specific story elements and ideas that were already going around, I would like us to mostly focus on the bigger picture with Gil-Galad before we decide any specifics, like it was done with Galadriel or Sauron. Gil-Galad won't be around quite as long, but he's certainly an important character in many seasons to come. He should have a long arc that begins this season - starting with character traits considering Tolkien didn't give him many 😀
 
I think it would be interesting, as I've written here before, to establish Gil-Galad's and Celebrimbor's relationship, the latter being the former's senior and, given that Celebrimbor is a friend of Orodreth, sort of an extra uncle. This could later on mean that Celebrimbor doesn't care to do exactly as Gil-Galad says when High King, but before that, Celebrimbor's friendship with Orodreth could be a factor that makes him distance himself from his father Curufin.
 
Since Tevildo is going to die this season, he should be given a moment to shine before meeting Haleth. He should be involved in one of the other stories in some way, something that happens in the earlier part of the season. Something with Annael?
 
Haakon said:
Since Tevildo is going to die this season, he should be given a moment to shine before meeting Haleth. He should be involved in one of the other stories in some way, something that happens in the earlier part of the season. Something with Annael?
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My idea was to have either Tevildo or Dragluin (who hasn’t had much to do in the last couple of seasons) be the force harassing Aredhel’s party in Nan Dungortheb.
 
In terms of Tevildo, we also need a way for him to get past the Noldor and into Brethil - just like the orcs that attack Haleth and their people. This siege will turn out to not be very airtight 😀 Maybe we can combine the two in the Pass of Aglon storyline where Thuringwethil will be spying on the local defenses.
 
Villains:
  • Morgoth: Unsure, but he and Glaurung will likely be the architects behind the Dagor Bragollach, particularly the Rivers of Fire
  • Sauron: Conducting his plot against the House of Hador and the Green Elves to keep the Men from teaming up with Elves. To that end he will lure hapless civilians (of both sexes if desired) away from their homes where he kills them, blaming them on the Green Elves.
  • Glaurung: See Morgoth’s entry but with added addendum: he’s likely breeding to create more Dragons.
  • Gothmog: Again unsure; the Assault on the Gelion-Ascar Stockade might be his idea since he prefers direct assault instead of subterfuge. He'd justify it as saying that Men are a threat.
  • Thurwingwethil: Spies for Sauron in the Eastern Theatre; slated to die next season in Beren and Luthien
  • Tevildo: May be harassing force in Nan Dungortheb and Brethil; will face Haleth and be killed
  • Draugluin: See Tevildo; will not be present in Brethil, slated to die next season in Beren and Luthien at Huan's jaws
  • Boldog: Unknown; he’ll have his chance to die next season. @Rhiannon would prefer keeping his assault on Doriath in SilmFilm, see Concerns for Season 5 thread.
Where is everybody during the Dagor Bragollach:
  • Glaurung: Attacking down the Gap of Maglor, burns the Arms of Gelion
  • Gothmog: Dorthonion and Ladros?
  • Sauron: Minas Tirith?
  • Boldog: Barad Eithel (Fingolfin's stronghold)?
 
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There's a sentence in The Silmarillion regarding the Dagor Bragollach that I think should influence our villain storylines this season: "And it is said that [Morgoth's] hate overcame his counsel, so that if he had but endured to wait longer, until his designs were full, then the Noldor would have perished utterly." Even though the Dagor Bragollach is going to be a crushing defeat for the good guys in the final episodes of this season, I think we should be hinting that it could have been much worse if Morgoth had been more patient and taken more time to prepare.

One way I think we could convey this is with the Dragons. Glaurung, is after all, the father of Dragons, but there is no mention of his children until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Perhaps we could show or hint that Morgoth is in the process of breeding more Dragons, but they are too young to take part in battle at the time of the Dagor Bragollach.
 
Rhiannon said:
There's a sentence in The Silmarillion regarding the Dagor Bragollach that I think should influence our villain storylines this season: "And it is said that [Morgoth's] hate overcame his counsel, so that if he had but endured to wait longer, until his designs were full, then the Noldor would have perished utterly." Even though the Dagor Bragollach is going to be a crushing defeat for the good guys in the final episodes of this season, I think we should be hinting that it could have been much worse if Morgoth had been more patient and taken more time to prepare.

One way I think we could convey this is with the Dragons. Glaurung, is after all, the father of Dragons, but there is no mention of his children until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Perhaps we could show or hint that Morgoth is in the process of breeding more Dragons, but they are too young to take part in battle at the time of the Dagor Bragollach.
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I could roll with that.

Any other takers?
 
I would like to remind people that last season, we said that we should avoid showing too much of the doings in Angband and the Bad Guys. It tends to make them less terrifying, and we also risk ruining the element of surprise when they attack - this will be of particular importance this season. So, while we do want to show for example that Morgoth attacks prematurely, we should indicate this by brief hints rather than a long continuous series of scenes. For example, we could show Sauron being surprised or by the attack or unhappy with it - he had perhaps suspected it should happen later, or at least preferred it if he had been in charge. He doesn't have to take part in the greater attack of Dagor B; his moment comes afterwards, when he takes Minas Tirith.
So maybe we can focus the Bad Guy stories on Sauron & Co. This does not rule out showing something of Angband, Glaurung etc.
 
Haakon said:
I would like to remind people that last season, we said that we should avoid showing too much of the doings in Angband and the Bad Guys. It tends to make them less terrifying, and we also risk ruining the element of surprise when they attack - this will be of particular importance this season. So, while we do want to show for example that Morgoth attacks prematurely, we should indicate this by brief hints rather than a long continuous series of scenes. For example, we could show Sauron being surprised or by the attack or unhappy with it - he had perhaps suspected it should happen later, or at least preferred it if he had been in charge. He doesn't have to take part in the greater attack of Dagor B; his moment comes afterwards, when he takes Minas Tirith.
So maybe we can focus the Bad Guy stories on Sauron & Co. This does not rule out showing something of Angband, Glaurung etc.
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So how would we show that Morgoth acted prematurely? We could also have all Villain storylines halted by the Council of Estolad or Haleth vs Tevildo depending on what happens later.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
So how would we show that Morgoth acted prematurely?
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I mean we can show some scenes in Angband, and we can get the impression (more or less clear) by scenes with Sauron that the plan is to build and build for quite a time more. Then Dagor B happens, and Sauron is taken by surprise. We should probably hint that Morgoth is impatient earlier on. The Dragon project takes too long or something.
 
Question: So we've switched around the order of events on the assault on the Gelion-Ascar Stockade where Haleth makes her bones, and the Council at Estolad.
  • In the books it was Morgoth's initiative because he was angered by the failure to keep the Elves and the Edain from joining up and just wants to cause as much harm as possible.
  • In our version, Sauron is still running his scheme to keep the Elves and the House of Hador, which is the largest military presence, apart, which means the outcome is still up in the air. Why do the Orcs attack? Whose idea was it?
 
Maybe Sauron gets caught with his pants down a bit here? Morgoth comes steaming out of Angband and Sauron is NOT ready. He has some scheme or another that just falls flat because it isn't ready. I don't know what the scheme is, just spitballing. Something that looks like it should work, but is clearly not ready.
 
amysrevenge said:
Maybe Sauron gets caught with his pants down a bit here? Morgoth comes steaming out of Angband and Sauron is NOT ready. He has some scheme or another that just falls flat because it isn't ready. I don't know what the scheme is, just spitballing. Something that looks like it should work, but is clearly not ready.
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He certainly rolls with it however; Bereg would probably interpret the skirmish like this: the Hadorians are not welcome in Beleriand and wants to hightail it out of there, which furthers Sauron's scheme.

I was thinking Gothmog might be behind it, preferring direct assault instead of subterfuge.
 
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amysrevenge said:
Maybe Sauron gets caught with his pants down a bit here? Morgoth comes steaming out of Angband and Sauron is NOT ready. He has some scheme or another that just falls flat because it isn't ready. I don't know what the scheme is, just spitballing. Something that looks like it should work, but is clearly not ready.
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Yeah that’s kind of what I’m thinking
 
amysrevenge said:
Maybe Sauron gets caught with his pants down a bit here? Morgoth comes steaming out of Angband and Sauron is NOT ready. He has some scheme or another that just falls flat because it isn't ready. I don't know what the scheme is, just spitballing. Something that looks like it should work, but is clearly not ready.
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Wait a minute, I'm getting confused. Are we talking about the Assault on the Gelion-Ascar Stockade or the Dagor Bragollach?
 
Haakon said:
Not sure now to be honest. 🙂 I’m talking about Dagor B
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Okay, I could see Sauron caught with his pants down about the Dagor B. What I was talking about was the battle that Haleth participated in, my idea was to have Gothmog send a regiment of Orcs down to kill the Haladin; it would give him something to do between the beginning of the season and the Dagor Bragollach.
 
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