Session 6-11: Beren and Lúthien Finale

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Update: Session 6-11 will be held on Thursday May 19th at 10 PM Eastern Time (we are delaying due to scheduling conflicts with Corey Olsen's travels).

We will be wrapping up the Beren and Lúthien storylines and finalizing the Season Outline.

We have work to do yet for Episode 13.

How does the season finale spell out the theme of "release from bondage"?

We will also have to decide how to handle Dior and how to anticipate Season 7.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
One way to set up Season 7: Sauron goes east and is at the Blue Mountains where there are parties of Easterlings making their way westward?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
At this point I’m wondering what level we’re aiming for when it comes to casting. For example, do we want one or more of the warriors accompanying Finrod named (Edrahil? Inglor?). Historically we’ve seen characters evolving into bigger players in the script writing process than what could be understood at the synopsis stage. Perhaps we want to consider planning ahead regarding this, and we could take the opportunity this season since we aren’t looking at a massive casting this season.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
At this point I’m wondering what level we’re aiming for when it comes to casting. For example, do we want one or more of the warriors accompanying Finrod named (Edrahil? Inglor?). Historically we’ve seen characters evolving into bigger players in the script writing process than what could be understood at the synopsis stage. Perhaps we want to consider planning ahead regarding this, and we could take the opportunity this season since we aren’t looking at a massive casting this season.
Well, we have:
  • Beren
  • Huan (voice only)
  • Gorlim
  • Gorgol (Thurwingwethil would probably have some backup when she captures Gorlim; she's not the fighting type)
  • Finduilas
  • Erenion Gil-galad
  • Oropher? (we're running out of time to introduce him unless we want him to be a full-blooded Silvan Elf right off the bat)
  • Deadwë (Elf who is raised by Sauron as a test of his skills in necromancy)
  • Another of the Band of 13?
That's nine right there and I might be stretching it; there's probably some space to add at least one of Finrod's companions. Edrahil at the least has lines. Frame-wise I can't think of anyone to add at the moment since we appear to mainly be dealing with established characters.
 
Last edited:

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Baragund and Belegund will have lines in Episode 1 and be killed in episode 2. Technically they were introduced last season, but not cast, as they were only background characters. There is not space to give every member of Barahir's outlaw band personality or lines. Most of them will remain background characters and not require casting.

Members of Finrod's doomed companions can be introduced in the Nargothrond plot prior to their deaths, so they can have roles and lines if desired. For instance, the outline of Episode 1 calls for guards (from the Guarded Plain) to report to Finrod. If we want this to be Edrahil or Inglor, it can be. If not, we could use Gwindor, who was introduced last season (but is not yet cast).

We haven't done the outline for episode 2 yet, but surely someone is going to voice a concern about allowing the Fëanoreans to stay in Nargothrond. Having it be one of Finrod's loyal companions fits.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Not sure about Baragund and Belegund…and I’m also not sure about Finrod’s companions. I’d be inclined to suggest that we include them in casting if they can be made interesting enough, and somehow have a dramatic arch, although a small one. If they’re just people who have lines in the dialogue, I’d be hesitant.
Deadwë? I’m not sure casting is necessary?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Not sure about Baragund and Belegund…and I’m also not sure about Finrod’s companions. I’d be inclined to suggest that we include them in casting if they can be made interesting enough, and somehow have a dramatic arch, although a small one. If they’re just people who have lines in the dialogue, I’d be hesitant.
Deadwë? I’m not sure casting is necessary?
Baragund and Belegund also have speaking roles in S05, so there's that. I'm not sure that we can do much for Finrod's companions, though I suppose at least one should escape to tell the tale.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Ok so maybe three facts about Baragund and Belegund justify including them in casting: being dads of important daughters, the time being outlaws, and their deaths (important that those killed aren’t just redshirts or anonymous).

Oh a survivor from Tol Sirion? Ok, do you think Edrahil or Inglor would be appropriate? Alternatively, the survivor is anonymous…(since deaths of known characters hurt more, making more drama)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ok so maybe three facts about Baragund and Belegund justify including them in casting: being dads of important daughters, the time being outlaws, and their deaths (important that those killed aren’t just redshirts or anonymous).

Oh a survivor from Tol Sirion? Ok, do you think Edrahil or Inglor would be appropriate? Alternatively, the survivor is anonymous…(since deaths of known characters hurt more, making more drama)
Plus they could be prisoners from the taking of Tol Sirion, if Beren and Finrod's companions aren't the only prisoners there.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Not sure about Baragund and Belegund…and I’m also not sure about Finrod’s companions. I’d be inclined to suggest that we include them in casting if they can be made interesting enough, and somehow have a dramatic arch, although a small one. If they’re just people who have lines in the dialogue, I’d be hesitant.
Deadwë? I’m not sure casting is necessary?
I did say I was pushing it.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I would not necessarily say that Baragund and Belegund have arcs or are even able to be differentiated. Their main role is concern for their absent families - to emphasize the difficulty of being separated by the war. That.. does not change at any point. They are introduced being concerned about their young daughters and saying farewell to their father, they talk about missing the refugees, and they die not being reunited. They are supporters of Barahir, whom they look up to as a leader. They are a necessary supporting role, but... They don't have a story the way Gorlim does.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Deadwë? I’m not sure casting is necessary?
Deadwe *does* have an arc - he starts by refusing the call to Mandos, and then being made captive by Sauron. When he is set free by Lúthien, he then chooses to go to Mandos. Also, he's dead, so casting a ghost (whom we never see alive) may be an interesting challenge.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Deadwe *does* have an arc - he starts by refusing the call to Mandos, and then being made captive by Sauron. When he is set free by Lúthien, he then chooses to go to Mandos. Also, he's dead, so casting a ghost (whom we never see alive) may be an interesting challenge.
Well, we see what he looked like in life right? Like a Jacob Marley situation?
 
Last edited:

Octoburn

Active Member
I had a few thoughts listening to one of the previous sessions.

This is is both looking forward a bit, but also looking back: shouldn't we show Narsil at some point this season? I don't know where we last left it; I do know Andreth was in possession of it, last I recall. But, if we are doing the frame as Aragorn and Arwen meeting (and I believe Aragorn learning his birthright) it would be good to kind of juxtapose it being passed down in the main story, as well as in the frame. I know it's not paramount to the main story, but with the frame we have, I believe this would create some cool moments of juxtaposition.

EDIT: I see that Narsil was taken to Brethil by Emildir. Could we have either Tol Sirion refugees or Beren (on his way to Tol Sirion) or Luthien (on her way to Tol Sirion or even Beleg (in search of Luthien by order of Thingol) or Daeron (on his way to his Eagle encounter) run across the Dorthonion refugees, and thus the sword in Brethil during one of their travels?

Secondly, I was listening to The One With All the Wolf Fights, and was curious if there might be some interaction of Sauron with the spirits of the dead Elves from Finrods party? In the Lay, Sauron finds out who Finrod is by way of some convenient eavesdropping, but what if he learns it from one of Finrods dead compatriots?
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I had a few thoughts listening to one of the previous sessions.

This is is both looking forward a bit, but also looking back: shouldn't we show Narsil at some point this season? I don't know where we last left it; I do know Andreth was in possession of it, last I recall. But, if we are doing the frame as Aragorn and Arwen meeting (and I believe Aragorn learning his birthright) it would be good to kind of juxtapose it being passed down in the main story, as well as in the frame. I know it's not paramount to the main story, but with the frame we have, I believe this would create some cool moments of juxtaposition.

EDIT: I see that Narsil was taken to Brethil by Emildir. Could we have either Tol Sirion refugees or Beren (on his way to Tol Sirion) or Luthien (on her way to Tol Sirion or even Beleg (in search of Luthien by order of Thingol) or Daeron (on his way to his Eagle encounter) run across the Dorthonion refugees, and thus the sword in Brethil during one of their travels?

Secondly, I was listening to The One With All the Wolf Fights, and was curious if there might be some interaction of Sauron with the spirits of the dead Elves from Finrods party? In the Lay, Sauron finds out who Finrod is by way of some convenient eavesdropping, but what if he learns it from one of Finrods dead compatriots?
The most likely one would be the refugees from Tol Sirion, since Lúthien would likely not want to stop on her way to Tol Sirion and a detour to Brethil could take her out of the way there.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The most likely one would be the refugees from Tol Sirion, since Lúthien would likely not want to stop on her way to Tol Sirion and a detour to Brethil could take her out of the way there.
While I am not in favour of Luthien ever meeting Emeldir - I think this would inevitably lead to Emeldir rejecting Luthien as a potential daughter-in-law and as such see such a meeting as not being favourable to the whole story - that would be not much of a detour.
If Luthien just follows the rivers from Menegroth - which makes most sense - she has to pass Brethil.

Menegroth - Tol Sirion.png
More explaination imho will require why Beren and Luthien DO NOT visit Emeldir while Beren is injured after Beren's leap - they are in that very area then and Beren has not seen his mother in a long while and - if he wants to go to Angband - probably will never ever meet her again (which actually comes rue). (On the other hand, such a meeting would be a good moment for Beren to "abidicate" officially as leader of the House of Beor in front of the remnants of his people before he leaves for Angband, and in doing so free the future Dior to be Thingol's heir only.)
 
Last edited:

Rob Harding

Active Member
I really do want to see Luthien meet with Emeldir on the way to rescue Beren. I like not having him present and also to discuss being women who are leaders amongst their people. Not just have a conversation that revolves around Beren. Perhaps Luthien wouldn't even be aware of her identity and maybe Luthien never discloses her loves name. It can be about these women.

Luthien is going on this journey of moving outward from the world of Menegroth. She gets to the point of destroying Sauron's keep and overcoming Morgoth. She's never been a weak character, but she is a person realising her potential is bigger than that of the roles ascribed to her. I think Emeldir is the perfect person to encourage Luthien to figuratively and literally use her voice not just as a tool of healing but as something that can tear down strongholds.

Her reasons for being there could simply be along the lines of Brethil being this last stronghold on the fringes of their 'neighbourhood'. It was bequeathed by her father but I doubt he has much interest in the goings on of Men. So Luthien could be seeking intel. How much does she truly know about what has changed in the lands. She is on a quest to understand the world. And she know has an interest in mortals.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Odola, recall that Lúthien travels from Doriath to Tol Sirion via Nargothrond, thanks to Celegorm.

Octoburn, I agree that we should make use of Sauron's necromancy while Finrod is imprisoned. If Sauron interacts with more dead elves, it follows up on his story arc thus far. No eavesdropping necessary! Also, the well needs more souls....

I see that there have been other messages typed since I started typing this. At this time, we do not have any planned scenes in Brethil, but if we can fit in a reason to go there, we could include it. For instance, the episode that focuses on the choices of Beren and Lúthien in the aftermath of the fall of Tol Sirion requires them to rest up in a place of safety for a time - we could work that out to be Brethil. If it were Brethil, that would bring in mortals in the story again (Beren is the only human character after the deaths of Barahir's band in Episode 2...for this entire season.) So, there could be a scene between Beren and Emeldir, we could see Narsil, we could hear how the sons of Galdor were lost in the fighting, etc. Do we have time for this? Uhhh, this season is very tightly packed, and that 'resting' episode really does need to focus on Beren's decision to leave Lúthien for her own good. If that's what the time in Brethil accomplishes, great! But if not....no, we can't.


I know it should seem that a linear narrative focusing on two main characters would be straightforward and not be overcrowded. But....here's what we have for the early episodes so far:

1651346227647.png

Generally speaking, the 'A-plot' is the main storyline that we follow through the episode. That is the focus of the climax, that is the POV character's agency, etc. We typically have room for two scenes in each act for the A-plot (ie, 8 scenes total to tell this story).

The B-plot is a story with an arc over the course of the episode. It can take place in a different location and involve different characters from the A-plot, but it is a more 'minor' storyline. We typically have room for one scene in each act for the B-plot (ie, 4 scenes total to tell the story).

The C-plot is another story element that we need to include, but does not have an arc over the course of the episode. Typically, this is a self-contained scene or two that will relate to a plot-line in another episode. The dwarves besieging Keep Helevorn in Episode 3 is a perfect example of a C-plot. We will show it happening in one scene, but there will be no progress nor development throughout the episode.

Generally, the Frame is the D-plot. It has two short scenes bookending the episode. Occasionally, we can have an additional full scene in the episode dedicated to the Frame story. We can also use the 'D-plot' for a plot point that only shows up in the tag of the episode (not a full scene, no dialogue).

Looking at the above - we have a lot more than that going on in Episodes 1 and 2. We have (essentially) two separate B-plots in Episode 1, as well as three distinct C-plots. This means that our 'A-plot' is really just a B-plot with an exciting intro/climax. Likewise, in Episode 2, some of the A-plot will be shown from the point of view of the band of outlaws, so we are blending our A- and B-plots.

(As you can see, we've already done the script discussions for episodes 1-2; the others have some question marks on point of view, what will be the major plots, etc.)
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Odola, recall that Lúthien travels from Doriath to Tol Sirion via Nargothrond, thanks to Celegorm.
O.k. I stand correcred. But then Luthien still passes the forest of Brethil from its Westem side and if she does stop for rest at all - maybe as half-Ainu she does not need that - the forest would be a good place for that.
Still I pesonally do not like them to meet.

At this time, we do not have any planned scenes in Brethil, but if we can fit in a reason to go there, we could include it. For instance, the episode that focuses on the choices of Beren and Lúthien in the aftermath of the fall of Tol Sirion requires them to rest up in a place of safety for a time - we could work that out to be Brethil. If it were Brethil, that would bring in mortals in the story again (Beren is the only human character after the deaths of Barahir's band in Episode 2...for this entire season.) So, there could be a scene between Beren and Emeldir, we could see Narsil, we could hear how the sons of Galdor were lost in the fighting, etc. Do we have time for this? Uhhh, this season is very tightly packed, and that 'resting' episode really does need to focus on Beren's decision to leave Lúthien for her own good. If that's what the time in Brethil accomplishes, great! But if not....no, we can't.
I think it could serve as a catalyst for Beren's decission as it would remind him of his cultural roots to leave women behind/sent them to safety when setting out on a dangerous mission.
It would also make him feel he leaves Luthien somewhere safe and does not simply abandon her to her fate in the wilderness.

But I have no real position on this beyond it being very strange for him to be this near to his mother and not trying to see her before leaving for an almost certain death.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
While I am not in favour of Luthien ever meeting Emeldir - I think this would inevitably lead to Emeldir rejecting Luthien as a potential daughter-in-law and as such see such a meeting as not being favourable to the whole story - that would be not much of a detour.
If Luthien just follows the rivers from Menegroth - which makes most sense - she has to pass Brethil.

View attachment 4169
More explaination imho will require why Beren and Luthien DO NOT visit Emeldir while Beren is injured after Beren's leap - they are in that very area then and Beren has not seen his mother in a long while and - if he wants to go to Angband - probably will never ever meet her again (which actually comes rue). (On the other hand, such a meeting would be a good moment for Beren to "abidicate" officially as leader of the House of Beor in front of the remnants of his people before he leaves for Angband, and in doing so free the future Dior to be Thingol's heir only.)
Which remnant? There's two; one party with Emeldir, and the other with Morwen and Rian.
 
Top