Session 6-11: Beren and Lúthien Finale

MithLuin

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Staff member
Emeldir (and Narsil) will remain in the Forest of Brethil. Naturally, Morwen and Rian (and others) need to wind up in Dor-lomin...but we haven't told that story yet, so that will be a development for Season 7.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Which remnant? There's two; one party with Emeldir, and the other with Morwen and Rian.
That one on Brethil. Would work for both, even if he adresses just some of them, he just has to declare it on front of some amount of witnesses beyong his mere mother. He just saw Finrod doing something similar before leaving Norgothrond so "bringing his official matters in order" before leaving for Angband would seems fitting. This would give him and us closure with his people. (Emeldir might be pressing him not go by reminding him of his duties, as such he decides to "lay those down" - or not, as I do know to little about the character of our Emeldir and her own sacrifices for the sake of her people and what she would expect from or want for her son. So it might be his own impulse or a response to her pressing him, either way would work.)

Actually Finrod's death might be Beren's greatest motivation not to abandon his quest however much Luthien (and his mother) might seek to convince him. Finrod lay down his kingship and his duties towards his own people and very his life for Beren's quest and Beren might feel he desecrates Finrods memory if he doeas no do the same to see it fullfilled now.

@MithLuin Where does Luthien meet Celegorm and Curufin the first time around? When she is in Brethil aready would actually make most sense geographically, as them coming from the South and her being headed for Tol Sirion this seems the very location at Doriath's border that they would come to meet each other?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The short answer to your question is Nivrim, the forest of oaks on the western border of Doriath (see the green on the map below). Celegorm and Curufin are hunting in Talath Dirnen when they encounter Lúthien under 'the western eaves of Doriath.'

There are three places where Lúthien can easily cross the River Sirion: the ford of Brithiach north of Brethil, the bridge over the Sirion within the Girdle in Doriath, or by using a boat kept in Doriath in the region of Aelin-Uial to the south (see the blue marks on the map below). We know that Beren crossed at Aelin-Uial and went to Nargothrond from there. We are not told where Lúthien crossed, but based on where she is found, the bridge seems likely. With her magic shadow cloak, sneaking across the bridge may not be that difficult.

So, I suspect that she is south of Brethil (due east of Amon Rûdh) when they encounter her. Alternatively, she could have used the boats as well, and then she is likely in southern Nivrim during the encounter with Celegorm and Curufin. The Fëanoreans, of course, cannot enter Nivrim at all, and this area extends from the Fens of Sirion up to the junction of the Teiglin and Sirion.

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Odola

Well-Known Member
The short answer to your question is Nivrim, the forest of oaks on the western border of Doriath (see the green on the map below). Celegorm and Curufin are hunting in Talath Dirnen when they encounter Lúthien under 'the western eaves of Doriath.'

There are three places where Lúthien can easily cross the River Sirion: the ford of Brithiach north of Brethil, the bridge over the Sirion within the Girdle in Doriath, or by using a boat kept in Doriath in the region of Aelin-Uial to the south (see the blue marks on the map below). We know that Beren crossed at Aelin-Uial and went to Nargothrond from there. We are not told where Lúthien crossed, but based on where she is found, the bridge seems likely. With her magic shadow cloak, sneaking across the bridge may not be that difficult.

So, I suspect that she is south of Brethil (due east of Amon Rûdh) when they encounter her. Alternatively, she could have used the boats as well, and then she is likely in southern Nivrim during the encounter with Celegorm and Curufin. The Fëanoreans, of course, cannot enter Nivrim at all, and this area extends from the Fens of Sirion up to the junction of the Teiglin and Sirion.

View attachment 4180
(Upfront remarks: Luthien is an elf who can make it over a river on a rope and we know she can can make things grow long by her magic. So not a sure if she depends on bridges at all. - Another question - how good can elves swim? They can do it, we know about Amroth trying to swim the sea and drowning in "Nimrodel". How well can Luthien swim - probably quite well given her long age. So I do think we could play with the crossing site if pressed hard by the story.)

But Luthien is not headed for Nargothrond but to Tol Sirion - isn't she? To her knowledge Beren is no longer in Nargothrond ?

What I want to say - she is around Brethil anyway and there no reason for her to turn South on her way. Normally she would turn North following the river Sirion - which would make most sense when heading for Tol Sirion - but then it is unprobable for the Feanorians to meet her at all.

Can the Feanorians meet her just having crossed the bridge at confluence of Sirion and Esgalduin? You say they cannot enter there due to the Girdle. But if there is a border gard maybe they can stop there for news and small trade? Or Luthien has really visited Brethil and the brothers find her resting at the Southern borders of Brethil on their hunt - there they presumably could enter. But for this she would have to choose to have followed the river Teiglin towards the highway going North - for whatever reason - that is a valid way - but still that were a delay and she is assumably in great haste?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, I am not suggesting that Lúthien cannot swim nor devise another way across the river. I am just pointing out that there are three established crossings, and as she is travelling alone, these are the most likely places to cross. She does have to avoid any border guard, but her stealth abilities are quite high, as only Huan can find her in the next scene. The bridge just south of the Esgalduin junction with Sirion is the most likely place.

Also, in the original story, she encounters Celegorm and Curufin immediately upon leaving Doriath. So, she is 'under the western eaves of Doriath' when they find her. Nivrim; she is definitely not in Brethil. Now, if we had a reason to want her to reach Brethil first, and then somehow encounter Celegorm and Curufin, we could suggest an addition to the story. But delaying her reaching Nargothrond is not wise - she will be taken to Nargothrond and escape Nargothrond in this episode, and it may seem as though she was imprisoned for all of 5 minutes if we introduce a Brethil storyline before that time.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Yes, I am not suggesting that Lúthien cannot swim nor devise another way across the river. I am just pointing out that there are three established crossings, and as she is travelling alone, these are the most likely places to cross. She does have to avoid any border guard, but her stealth abilities are quite high, as only Huan can find her in the next scene. The bridge just south of the Esgalduin junction with Sirion is the most likely place.

Also, in the original story, she encounters Celegorm and Curufin immediately upon leaving Doriath. So, she is 'under the western eaves of Doriath' when they find her. Nivrim; she is definitely not in Brethil. Now, if we had a reason to want her to reach Brethil first, and then somehow encounter Celegorm and Curufin, we could suggest an addition to the story. But delaying her reaching Nargothrond is not wise - she will be taken to Nargothrond and escape Nargothrond in this episode, and it may seem as though she was imprisoned for all of 5 minutes if we introduce a Brethil storyline before that time.
As I said before I personally am against Luthien meeting Emeldir at that moment in the story. (I could be conviced of Luthien being left in Emeldir's care when Beren leaves for Angband alone - with both females opposing that decission and trying to talk him out of it and him leaving in response in secret after having abdicating his duties to his people in front some of them during the previous confrontation - as having Beren get closure with his family and people and having Dior cut from the succession line as head of the House of Beor would be worth it for me). But I cannot deny it is principally geographically possible if wanted. @Rob Harding try to sell it to us. ;)
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I’d just like decent conversations between women that don’t rely or revolve around men. I don’t mind if people do it or not honestly I just think it’s be a missed opportunity. I’m also against Luthien trying to stop Beren, she could easily come across as ‘love interest trying to prevent man’s passion quest’ which is an exhausting trope. I just think them being strong supporters of each other and giving one another agency to follow their own paths even if they don’t agree but being there to help should things go wrong is preferable. But again, I’m not investing in trying to sell this to anyone. Sooner include these elements in my own versions. Just putting them out as suggestions
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I’d just like decent conversations between women that don’t rely or revolve around men. I don’t mind if people do it or not honestly I just think it’s be a missed opportunity. I’m also against Luthien trying to stop Beren, she could easily come across as ‘love interest trying to prevent man’s passion quest’ which is an exhausting trope. I just think them being strong supporters of each other and giving one another agency to follow their own paths even if they don’t agree but being there to help should things go wrong is preferable. But again, I’m not investing in trying to sell this to anyone. Sooner include these elements in my own versions. Just putting them out as suggestions

Were Melian not a better conversation patner for Luthien in this regard? As the perspectives and abilities of Emeldir and Luthien are completely different. Remember that Luthien is not subject the Fall od Men while Emeldir is. As such the point for Emeldit is to actively choose good while for Luthien it merely is not to fall for the deceits of evil. As such their live goals do not have much in common, Emeldir is fighting to overcome a innate weakness at every moment of her life, while Luthien is in complete command of her strenght, her limitations being few and even those imposed on her by Thingol easily overcomable by her? Luthien does not suffer bad conscience or self-doubt - she is not in position to have aquired them - what for?
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I also totally disagree that people with different perspectives cannot support one another and learn from another. Whole point of the Beren and Luthien story.

I agree Melian should also interact with her. Without a doubt. I just don’t think we need to ration out interactions. I’d sooner have time to explore multiple strong female relationships rather than nod a hat to a box ticking exercise. I just think Emeldir, as a female leader who separated from the love of her life and was still able to find a strong identity, would have lessons to impart on Luthien he is, for the first time, finding herself entangled with another in this way, sharing a destiny and leaving behind the roles she once held. Particularly given Emeldir may be able to impart a mortal’s perspective during a time where Luthien may be struggling with Beren’s alienness.

But that’s all really theoretical as I’m not sure any of fits in a one season telling of the tale. Which is a shame.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We should have opportunities for Melian and Lúthien to speak with one another in Episodes 3 and 4. In Episode 3, their conversation would be about the nature of healing or the situation with Beleriand growing darker (not Beren, obviously).
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I’d just like decent conversations between women that don’t rely or revolve around men.
Naturally, we have been cognizant of creating episodes of Silm Film that pass the Bechdel test:


Tolkien's stories naturally have many more male characters than female characters. (The Hobbit, for instance, has no female characters at all.) And Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films do not pass the Bechdel test. (The image below from a cut scene shows Galadriel talking with Arwen, so the potential was there...though this conversation likely would have been about Aragorn).


So, in our story telling, we do try to make sure we look for opportunities to flesh out the female characters who are there (or who must've been there), and tell stories with them as well. I think we've done a decent job with the female characters. The two scripts I wrote for season 5 featured female protagonists and certainly passed the Bechdel test. If anything, I had to be careful I didn't fail in the other direction by not having any male characters speak with one another! But that was Season 5, where we naturally had Andreth and Haleth. Those characters are gone now, so we do have to consider how to handle this in Season 6, where Lúthien and Thuringwethil are our two most important female characters, but by no means the only women who would be named and on screen.


We've done less well with dwarven characters...most of those have been one-off caricatures, and even our prime exception to that (Norn) ended fairly ignominiously. I am very much looking forward to our portrayal of Azaghâl, lord of Belegost, in Season 7. If we do that right, he should be our best dwarven character yet. This season, we are introducing Zirak - who will be the aged Gamil Zirak in the fall of Doriath. So, we still have time to do better there.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
The Bechdel Test is what I was leaning into though not invoking directly as I don’t think it’s the be-all end-all. It’s kind of the bare minimum and I think a lot of scripts tend to think simply having two women talk qualifies them as complex or insightful.

I’m aware we inherit Tolkien’s lack of female characters and some great work has been done by both hosts and writers to flesh out the world, with particular focus to our female characters. For me, Luthien and Emeldir is just something I personally find exciting as an unpulled story thread
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, it's been something we've been looking out for for some time now, and we're not simply relying on the Bechdel test, either. Here's a thread devoted to concerns about the portrayal of female characters on our show:
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
. (The image below from a cut scene shows Galadriel talking with Arwen, so the potential was there...though this conversation likely would have been about Aragorn).
Nice picture. But they could have started out talking about Celebrian leaving ME and if that was a valid option and that would have counted.

Still I do not think women talking about the fit of a dress or the shade of lipstick would automatically make a movie interesting for me. That is even more boring to me than having them talk about a man - at least he would be a slightly more complex subject. [While them talking about a spinning wheel would for sure interest me (hint, hint) ;) ]

By the way, I've lost track of Galadriel and Celeborn, have they left Doriath already? Where are they currently?
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
Yes, it's been something we've been looking out for for some time now, and we're not simply relying on the Bechdel test, either. Here's a thread devoted to concerns about the portrayal of female characters on our show:
Oh it wasn’t a slight. I’m well up to speed on choices made and enjoy them. Was just explaining why I personally didn’t invoke the Test. Odala reiterated the issue in her last post. But I’m not suggesting we’re doing the bear minimum, obviously not.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Presumably yes, though it is possible we will want to bring them back to Doriath at some point.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Update: Session 6-11 will be held on Thursday May 19th at 10 PM Eastern Time (we are delaying due to scheduling conflicts with Corey Olsen's travels).

We will be wrapping up the Beren and Lúthien storylines and finalizing the Season Outline.

We have work to do yet for Episode 13.

How does the season finale spell out the theme of "release from bondage"?

We will also have to decide how to handle Dior and how to anticipate Season 7.
A heads up that the podcast session will be delayed until May 19th.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Presumably yes, though it is possible we will want to bring them back to Doriath at some point.
If they're coming back to Doriath at some point, maybe they pick up Oropher and he accompanies them before striking out on his own for Greenwood/Mirkwood?
 
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