Octoburn
Active Member
Don't they need to head over the mountains soon?
Her song says she and Celeborn left Beleriand before the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin. And we are only a few seasons away from those kingdoms falling.
Session 6-11: Beren and Lúthien Finale
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Her song says she and Celeborn left Beleriand before the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin. And we are only a few seasons away from those kingdoms falling.
Yes, we will have some decisions to make about Galadriel's storyline in Season 7.
We haven't decided yet, but there was some talk of keeping them in Beleriand a bit longer, to involve them in the story of Doriath post Beren and Lúthien. We won't want to lose track of them for too long, so a bunch of seasons 'over the mountains' will really break up Galadriel's story. There is more than one way to handle that predicament, though....
We haven't decided yet, but there was some talk of keeping them in Beleriand a bit longer, to involve them in the story of Doriath post Beren and Lúthien. We won't want to lose track of them for too long, so a bunch of seasons 'over the mountains' will really break up Galadriel's story. There is more than one way to handle that predicament, though....
Odola
Well-Known Member
If they are in Ossiriand now then we have to think about some things that happen this season - even if offscreen - to catch up with them later:
1. Are they currently in contact with Nimloth (pre-Dior) - she is Celeborn's niece after all?
2. How involved will they be in the upbringing of Dior later? Are they connected in setting up the marriage between Dior and Nimloth?
3. Their future daughter Celebrian will marry Dior's grandson Elrond - so they already are and in future will be even further intimately connected with Thingol's family - Celeborn is Thingol's cousin already, and Galadriels is Thingol's grand-niece
4. How does their witnessing B&L firsthand now will impact their later reaction to Aragorn and Arwen?
(While we are explicitly told that Elrond fell in love with Celebrian - both Dior &Nimloth and Elrond&Celebrian actually do look very much like dynastic marriages set up to considalidate Thingol's extended bloodline. Let's say it like this: "Elrond "managed" to fall in love suprisingly fitting with his own descent, standing and dynastic connections").
A small clash between Gil-Galad and Oropher, a small one squeezed in somewhere, this or next season - please, please.
Maybe Oropher bring a (verbal) message from Celeborn to Thingol and they pass each other in the ante-chamber in Menegroth somewhere - just enough to establish Oropher being irritated and triggered by Gil-Galad's person.
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Octoburn
Active Member
I just remembered I started a conversation a week ago that I never jumped back into: Re: Narsil.
First, i think I am against either Beren or Luthien meeting Emeldir. I wasnt suggeating that specifically, just that we'd have to go to Brethil to see Narsil. Are we even sure she survived? Maybe there is a memorial to Emeldir the Manhearted in Brethil?
Second, there are many journeys that skirt around Brethil within the scope of thia story. Beren on the way to Tol Sirion woukd come close; Luthien would come close when she flees Hirilorn to pursue Berwn at Tol Sirion, as well as when she flees Nargothrond for the same destination. They both would come near it in both the flight from Tol Sirion as well as the approach to Angband. The C-Bros could come close both as they come close to Tol Sition, when they are hunting and find Luthien, and when they attack Beren and Luthien. Daeron could come close when he makes thw trek to the eagles. It would honestly be strange if all these people are skirting so close to Brethil and no one meets any of the Beorians.
Third, again, I was just trying to work out a way to get Narsil into one scene this season that will probably feature Narsil a couple of times in the frame.
First, i think I am against either Beren or Luthien meeting Emeldir. I wasnt suggeating that specifically, just that we'd have to go to Brethil to see Narsil. Are we even sure she survived? Maybe there is a memorial to Emeldir the Manhearted in Brethil?
Second, there are many journeys that skirt around Brethil within the scope of thia story. Beren on the way to Tol Sirion woukd come close; Luthien would come close when she flees Hirilorn to pursue Berwn at Tol Sirion, as well as when she flees Nargothrond for the same destination. They both would come near it in both the flight from Tol Sirion as well as the approach to Angband. The C-Bros could come close both as they come close to Tol Sition, when they are hunting and find Luthien, and when they attack Beren and Luthien. Daeron could come close when he makes thw trek to the eagles. It would honestly be strange if all these people are skirting so close to Brethil and no one meets any of the Beorians.
Third, again, I was just trying to work out a way to get Narsil into one scene this season that will probably feature Narsil a couple of times in the frame.
The last we saw of Narsil was of Finrod giving it to Andreth in memory of Aegnor, who had died. So, Andreth, at least, is living out her days in Brethil.
As for Emeldir, she was alive last we saw her. She could, however, have led a contingent of the refugees on to Dor-lómin. If that were the case, even if Beren or Lúthien came to Brethil and enquired after her...they could be told that she has already left, that they've missed her. So, Beren would be denied a chance to see his mother again. If we want to tell the story that way, we could. Alternatively, Emeldir is in Brethil where last we saw her.
The potential of an elderly Andreth meeting Beren and Lúthien as a couple is interesting...I imagine she would have cautionary words for either of them! Narsil could 'stand in' for Aegnor in a scene with Andreth, if you are wanting to feature it prominently. Next we see of it, it will be hanging out in an armory, unnoticed/unremarked upon. Túrin will have the chance to pick it up...but he will choose otherwise.
As for Emeldir, she was alive last we saw her. She could, however, have led a contingent of the refugees on to Dor-lómin. If that were the case, even if Beren or Lúthien came to Brethil and enquired after her...they could be told that she has already left, that they've missed her. So, Beren would be denied a chance to see his mother again. If we want to tell the story that way, we could. Alternatively, Emeldir is in Brethil where last we saw her.
The potential of an elderly Andreth meeting Beren and Lúthien as a couple is interesting...I imagine she would have cautionary words for either of them! Narsil could 'stand in' for Aegnor in a scene with Andreth, if you are wanting to feature it prominently. Next we see of it, it will be hanging out in an armory, unnoticed/unremarked upon. Túrin will have the chance to pick it up...but he will choose otherwise.
Slight timeline issue has jumped out at me while looking this over.
Here's our episodes broken down thus far:
Lúthien's imprisonment in Hirilorn is meant to happen as a result of her determination to set out to rescue Beren from Tol Sirion. She has a bad feeling, she consults with Melian, and his plight is revealed. When her intention is made known to Thingol, he locks her up in the treehouse.
If we strictly followed that order of events, we would have to show Finrod lose the duel of songs, and *then* tell the story of Lúthien's imprisonment in Hirilorn, her meeting Celegorm and being under house arrest in Nargothrond, and the assault of Lúthien and Huan on Tol Sirion story...while Beren's story is "imprisoned in the dungeons of Nargothrond". This could be a sort of turnabout is fair play for Beren getting an interesting couple of episodes of introduction with the outlaws in Dorthonion, while we're getting only glimpses of Lúthien's life in Doriath. So, now we'd get three Lúthien-centric episodes while Beren talks philosophy with Finrod and the plot of the 'werewolf that eats the companions' takes on a much more significant role.
...But of course we don't have time for any of that. We have to tell Beren and Lúthien's stories in parallel for Episodes 5-7. So, Lúthien's bad feeling that Beren is going to need her to rescue him will have to start before Beren ever leaves Nargothrond...possibly before he even gets there! I'm not overly concerned with Melian having the abilities of the Mirror of Galadriel. We know she does, and that that is where Galadriel learned it. The moment Beren uses the Ring of Barahir to enter Nargothrond, he has set a course in motion that leads to "Beren needs to be rescued in Tol Sirion," so we can give Lúthien knowledge of that fate before the audience knows what is going to happen. But I am pointing out that we've shifted that timeline, so that when Celegorm and Curufin "invite" Lúthien back to Nargothrond and promise to help her, they do know that Finrod and Beren have set off on the quest of the silmaril...but knowledge of their capture in Tol Sirion (now Tol-in-Gaurhoth) hasn't reached them yet...because it hasn't yet happened! So her premonition is actually news to everyone she tells about it.
Just something to keep in mind while working out the character interactions in those episodes, and considering when and how we reveal the content of Lúthien's foreboding to the audience.
Also, we have three deliberate 'bottle episodes' - episodes that take place within a single setting.
Episode 4 - Doriath. Beren's encounter with Faerie cannot be broken up by cutting away to politics in Nargothrond, etc.
Episode 7 - Tol Sirion. The only other story we might want to interrupt with would be Doriath - but if we want to keep this strictly localized, we can have Thingol's reaction to Celegorm's request at the end of Episode 6.
Episode 10 - Angband.
We also have a couple of other potential accidental bottle episodes:
Episode 9 could take place almost entirely within Brethil and the surrounding lands. We know we want to show Daeron, but he's right next door in Dimbar at this time. Also, depending on where we leave Celegorm and Curufin at the end of Episode 8, we may need to show them returning to East Beleriand in this episode.
Episode 11 takes place within Doriath as well.
Here's our episodes broken down thus far:
Lúthien's imprisonment in Hirilorn is meant to happen as a result of her determination to set out to rescue Beren from Tol Sirion. She has a bad feeling, she consults with Melian, and his plight is revealed. When her intention is made known to Thingol, he locks her up in the treehouse.
If we strictly followed that order of events, we would have to show Finrod lose the duel of songs, and *then* tell the story of Lúthien's imprisonment in Hirilorn, her meeting Celegorm and being under house arrest in Nargothrond, and the assault of Lúthien and Huan on Tol Sirion story...while Beren's story is "imprisoned in the dungeons of Nargothrond". This could be a sort of turnabout is fair play for Beren getting an interesting couple of episodes of introduction with the outlaws in Dorthonion, while we're getting only glimpses of Lúthien's life in Doriath. So, now we'd get three Lúthien-centric episodes while Beren talks philosophy with Finrod and the plot of the 'werewolf that eats the companions' takes on a much more significant role.
...But of course we don't have time for any of that. We have to tell Beren and Lúthien's stories in parallel for Episodes 5-7. So, Lúthien's bad feeling that Beren is going to need her to rescue him will have to start before Beren ever leaves Nargothrond...possibly before he even gets there! I'm not overly concerned with Melian having the abilities of the Mirror of Galadriel. We know she does, and that that is where Galadriel learned it. The moment Beren uses the Ring of Barahir to enter Nargothrond, he has set a course in motion that leads to "Beren needs to be rescued in Tol Sirion," so we can give Lúthien knowledge of that fate before the audience knows what is going to happen. But I am pointing out that we've shifted that timeline, so that when Celegorm and Curufin "invite" Lúthien back to Nargothrond and promise to help her, they do know that Finrod and Beren have set off on the quest of the silmaril...but knowledge of their capture in Tol Sirion (now Tol-in-Gaurhoth) hasn't reached them yet...because it hasn't yet happened! So her premonition is actually news to everyone she tells about it.
Just something to keep in mind while working out the character interactions in those episodes, and considering when and how we reveal the content of Lúthien's foreboding to the audience.
Also, we have three deliberate 'bottle episodes' - episodes that take place within a single setting.
Episode 4 - Doriath. Beren's encounter with Faerie cannot be broken up by cutting away to politics in Nargothrond, etc.
Episode 7 - Tol Sirion. The only other story we might want to interrupt with would be Doriath - but if we want to keep this strictly localized, we can have Thingol's reaction to Celegorm's request at the end of Episode 6.
Episode 10 - Angband.
We also have a couple of other potential accidental bottle episodes:
Episode 9 could take place almost entirely within Brethil and the surrounding lands. We know we want to show Daeron, but he's right next door in Dimbar at this time. Also, depending on where we leave Celegorm and Curufin at the end of Episode 8, we may need to show them returning to East Beleriand in this episode.
Episode 11 takes place within Doriath as well.
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It's a good thing we have two weeks still to figure out how we are going to bring this season to an end.
Certainly we know some of the things that will happen in the finale episode: the resurrections of Beren and Lúthien, the healing of Thingol's winter, the farewell of Melian and Lúthien, Beren and Lúthien making a home for themselves in Tol Galen.
We have some choices to make:
Certainly we know some of the things that will happen in the finale episode: the resurrections of Beren and Lúthien, the healing of Thingol's winter, the farewell of Melian and Lúthien, Beren and Lúthien making a home for themselves in Tol Galen.
We have some choices to make:
- Is Lúthien pregnant with Dior in this episode? Do we show baby Dior?
- Will we be showing Sauron travelling east over the Blue Mountains? And will he be meeting anyone on the other side?
- Bombadil cameo this season? In the frame, or...?
Octoburn
Active Member
I'm ok with Melian having "mirror of Galadriel powers" but we need to have it be... different? Like, not a mirror. Melian served Vana and Este. Este is where she learned of healing and rest, what if her affiliation with Vana gives her some powers of flowers or birds? What if her "mirror" is flowers, or leaves or birds forming her visions? And if we go with the Mirrors abilities, it does show "some things which may come to pass" so Melian's mirror could show Beren imprisoned before he's actually imprisoned.
My bad, I searched for Narsil in thw folders and thw first thing that popped up was that Emeldir had it, I should have actually read what it said
Andreth meeting Beren and/or Luthien is an intriguing prospect.
I say we save Dior for next season. Having them set up home in Tol Galen is a satisfactory conclusion to the story, IMO. And Dior isn't born until about two years pre-Nirnaeth, per published materials. I know we fudge some of that stuff for the sake of storytelling, but I think this is one we can save for S7.
Sauron, I think we should show departing Beleriand, but save his interactions with the Easterlings for next season.
Bombadil... I dont know. We could show him witnessing Sauron going East, but that would seem a bit redundant to last seasons cameo. In frame, we know Aragorn knows Bombadil, so maybe the very last tag of the season could be Aragorn travelling and running upon him (for the first time) singing a silly song and Aragorn is all "what the...??" (Example: the last scene of Moon Knight, episode 5)
Setting up season 7... I think the main thing is that we set up the Union of Maedhros. Show the sons of Feanor hearing about B&L success and thinking that Morgoth is not unasailable, etc. MAYBE go as far as them sending the messenger to Thingol regarding the Silmaril, but that could be a S7 thing as well. Tying some stuff up with Nargothrond and Orodreth. Maybe Morgoth draws the dragons back in from Tar nu Fuin? I dont recall much of the dragon breeding stuff being brought up, but we should tie it up I think.Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Oropher stuff, I'm not sure what loose ends are there once we get there, but they should have something solidifying where they all stand. Maybe have Annael moving into Mithrim (?- I think that's right) before the end of the season as well.
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Ilana Mushin
Active Member
I think setting up the Union could be a teaser right at the end of this season.I'm ok with Melian having "mirror of Galadriel powers" but we need to have it be... different? Like, not a mirror. Melian served Vana and Este. Este is where she learned of healing and rest, what if her affiliation with Vana gives her some powers of flowers or birds? What if her "mirror" is flowers, or leaves or birds forming her visions? And if we go with the Mirrors abilities, it does show "some things which may come to pass" so Melian's mirror could show Beren imprisoned before he's actually imprisoned.
My bad, I searched for Narsil in thw folders and thw first thing that popped up was that Emeldir had it, I should have actually read what it said
Andreth meeting Beren and/or Luthien is an intriguing prospect.
I say we save Dior for next season. Having them set up home in Tol Galen is a satisfactory conclusion to the story, IMO. And Dior isn't born until about two years pre-Nirnaeth, per published materials. I know we fudge some of that stuff for the sake of storytelling, but I think this is one we can save for S7.
Sauron, I think we should show departing Beleriand, but save his interactions with the Easterlings for next season.
Bombadil... I dont know. We could show him witnessing Sauron going East, but that would seem a bit redundant to last seasons cameo. In frame, we know Aragorn knows Bombadil, so maybe the very last tag of the season could be Aragorn travelling and running upon him (for the first time) singing a silly song and Aragorn is all "what the...??" (Example: the last scene of Moon Knight, episode 5)
Setting up season 7... I think the main thing is that we set up the Union of Maedhros. Show the sons of Feanor hearing about B&L success and thinking that Morgoth is not unasailable, etc. MAYBE go as far as them sending the messenger to Thingol regarding the Silmaril, but that could be a S7 thing as well. Tying some stuff up with Nargothrond and Orodreth. Maybe Morgoth draws the dragons back in from Tar nu Fuin? I dont recall much of the dragon breeding stuff being brought up, but we should tie it up I think.Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Oropher stuff, I'm not sure what loose ends are there once we get there, but they should have something solidifying where they all stand. Maybe have Annael moving into Mithrim (?- I think that's right) before the end of the season as well.
Bombadil - I think it will be easier to set the cameo up in the frame rather than the main story.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Yes. We did indeed do something different with this when it was introduced in S04E02. Melian actually gives Galadriel a taste of what will become her own medicine.
Melian's grotto will likely reappear in Episode 3 to address the Annael situation. So, the audience will be reminded of it before Lúthien is seeking Melian's advice in Episode 5.
My only other thought for Bombadil this season is to have a 'Bombadil interlude' somewhere. The scene of him meeting Goldberry as this stand-alone scene. He doesn't encounter any character or event from the main plot. It's just him and Goldberry meeting. If we want to tell a bit of a story with it, it could be more than that, but at this point, Bombadil has been on screen 5 times, so I don't think the audience will be shocked if we return to him without context. And it is time we introduced Goldberry...
...maybe we cut away from the anti-climatic wedding of Beren and Lúthien to show Tom and Goldberry, and then cut back for the Hunt for the Wolf
My only other thought for Bombadil this season is to have a 'Bombadil interlude' somewhere. The scene of him meeting Goldberry as this stand-alone scene. He doesn't encounter any character or event from the main plot. It's just him and Goldberry meeting. If we want to tell a bit of a story with it, it could be more than that, but at this point, Bombadil has been on screen 5 times, so I don't think the audience will be shocked if we return to him without context. And it is time we introduced Goldberry...
...maybe we cut away from the anti-climatic wedding of Beren and Lúthien to show Tom and Goldberry, and then cut back for the Hunt for the Wolf
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
My personal suggestion is to have Sauron at the Blue Mountains, with parties of Men in the distance but drawing closer.
Odola
Well-Known Member
So, it came up in Beren's equipment thread, but I will also put in here. What about Beren's corpse? Will it be buried in Doriath? Handed over to the people of Brethil and Beren's mother for a proper human burial? What happens to it? And are both him and Luthien then reembodied the elven way?
Odola
Well-Known Member
So I've listened to the recording of yesterdays session (actually I've cached most of it still "live" early today ;-).
So if Beren visits his people in Brethil maimed already, there might be a possibility for him to "abdicate" if we choose to follow the Celtic rule that a impaired person cannot be a leader.
But for the episode 6-12 still - what a about Beren's corpse after the 1st death, is he (surely) and Luthien (most propably) buried - where and by whom? How are they reembodied? Which of Beren's hand is eaten and does he have if back when reembodied?
So if Beren visits his people in Brethil maimed already, there might be a possibility for him to "abdicate" if we choose to follow the Celtic rule that a impaired person cannot be a leader.
But for the episode 6-12 still - what a about Beren's corpse after the 1st death, is he (surely) and Luthien (most propably) buried - where and by whom? How are they reembodied? Which of Beren's hand is eaten and does he have if back when reembodied?
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Rob Harding
Active Member
What if it’s somewhere non descript. No where ‘special’. We could just see a single grave with names on a marker. Pan out and it’s in a wood with hemlock and white flowers. But we don’t need to specify where. It’s quiet and peaceful?
Odola
Well-Known Member
I could see that after their 2nd death. That grave is unknown. Or maybe be their bodies just vanished during their 2nd death (Jedi-Master-style death) - the way Finrod speculated in the Athrabeth - the fea taking the hroa with it when it leaves? They would go "the straight way up/out" - a stop in Mandos no longer being necessary.
But the first death? Luthien dies after Beren from grief which takes time and Beren's corpse has to be buried first in the meantime. Just laying there in the grass will not do, his body would start to decompose.
And we also have to cut Dior from the succession line of the House of Beor. If Beren's original maimed human body is buried by his people, then Dior beeing born much later than 9 months/ one year after Beren's 1st death will result in him not being accepted as of Beren's bloodline by Beren's people (as for most human cultures, as there are some cultures which assume a pregnancy possibly taking up to 4-7 years, but those are quite few).
A question for Ep. 6-11: Whey would Emeldir leave if she knows now her son lives justnext door? She has just regained him? Seems strange. After Beren dies, fine, but before? Or is Carcaroth's fury scaring the children and she decides to leave for their mental health's sake?
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Rob Harding
Active Member
I assumed we were talking about second final death. Maybe even a final series shot
Emeldir has a precedent for leading people to safety during dark times, sacrificing her chance to spend time with her own family
Emeldir has a precedent for leading people to safety during dark times, sacrificing her chance to spend time with her own family
Odola
Well-Known Member
No, I was explicitly talking about Beren's 1st death here. His 1st body does need to get buried after his 1st death.
Yes, but here she is older, she just has learned about her husband's death and her only son has just returned maimed from Angband. She has completely earned her retirement. And they are in relative safety in Brethil - untill Carcaroth shows up, that is.
Are B&L - and by association Emeldir- being blamed for bringing Carcaroth upon Brethil - on his way o Doriath he actually has to pass there - or did he come from the East (then he would have had to pass the Feanorians there)? If Carcaroth ruins Brethil on his way to Doriath maybe Emeldir is expelled from there with the girls? (There is also a possibility to have her "wield" Narsil - maybe Carcaroth flies seeing it in her hand farther into Doriath proper in his rage?)
EDIT: how to explain that Emeldir does not attend the B&L wedding, if even Galadriel and Celeborn do (they have a much longer distance to travel)? Do Galadriel and Celeborn bring Nimloth with them for the feast - as a young niece interested to see the world? She is a distant relative of Thingol too, after all.
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Sorry to interrupt — I blanked tonight and forgot the livestream was happening and would like to post some thoughts as I catch up:
Could the scene in Ep. 11 where Beren and Emeldir are talking be where they come up with the whole "my hand is not here" bit? (Or another scene around it.) That's far too witty and clever of a line for even Beren to have come up with on the spot. It seems pertinent to set that up and that particular spot seems a good place to put it since his hand is being tended right then.
Could the scene in Ep. 11 where Beren and Emeldir are talking be where they come up with the whole "my hand is not here" bit? (Or another scene around it.) That's far too witty and clever of a line for even Beren to have come up with on the spot. It seems pertinent to set that up and that particular spot seems a good place to put it since his hand is being tended right then.
Octoburn
Active Member
Just listened to the session. Wow. A lot got rearranged in 11-13.
Am I correct in remembering that the Narsil discussion led to getting them into Brethil and meeting Andreth and Emildir, but we've now decided that Narsil is no longer there now, but in Nargothrond? Or is it going to Nargothrond later? That was quite a session of What-Ifs, I seem to have lost track in terms of Narsil.
Am I correct in remembering that the Narsil discussion led to getting them into Brethil and meeting Andreth and Emildir, but we've now decided that Narsil is no longer there now, but in Nargothrond? Or is it going to Nargothrond later? That was quite a session of What-Ifs, I seem to have lost track in terms of Narsil.