Session 6-22: Casting

MithLuin

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The tale of Kullervo, which is the basis for the Children of Húrin, features a warrior returning home after a long time away. He sees a pretty girl and throws her on his sled. At first, she protests, but eventually they do spend the night together. In the morning, they exchange names, and are horrified to discover they have the same parents. She throws herself into the river and drowns, while he falls on his sword.

So, yes, it's fundamental to the story that the horror of discovering one has committed accidental incest with a sibling leads directly to suicide. The fate Gwindor thinks Túrin can avoid by rescuing Finduilas is marrying Nienor.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The tale of Kullervo, which is the basis for the Children of Húrin, features a warrior returning home after a long time away. He sees a pretty girl and throws her on his sled. At first, she protests, but eventually they do spend the night together. In the morning, they exchange names, and are horrified to discover they have the same parents. She throws herself into the river and drowns, while he falls on his sword.
As far I remember Kullervo goes on to have some more adventures after that and in the end he thows himself at his sword but after a life of many misfortunes - mostly brought apon by his violent temper and lack of thought? It was some decades ago since I have read the Kalevala.

And it was not the incest itself that was that the main problem for the sister in said story.
It was that she lost her maidenhood to somebody who could not restore her public honour by marrying her as he was discovered prior to such an attempt to be someone unmarriable for her - so that there was no way for her to recover her honour in this situation.

But Turin and Nienor were married, so there was nothing realy dishounourable. Such things do happened in war-torn societies context where children were oprhaned and raised apart a lot in history.
This is why the institution of the "banns of marriage" was introduced in the first place.

And even in the Catholic Church in such a case when a couple that is suddenly discovered to be too close related for a marriage to have been assumed possible to have taken place such an assumed marriage is simply declared null and void by the ecclesiastical court but nobody is considered blamesworthy. Also the children of such an union are considered legit because they were conceived while the marriage of their parents was assumed valid. No party is considered to be blamed and nobody makes a fuss. The couple is obliged to live apart the very moment that they have learned of their close connection to each other but nobody blames them for anything that they have have done while they assumed themselves to have been married to each other.

So, yes, it's fundamental to the story that the horror of discovering one has committed accidental incest with a sibling leads directly to suicide. The fate Gwindor thinks Túrin can avoid by rescuing Finduilas is marrying Nienor.
What horror? Incest is horrible when it is the misuse of power inside of a familly unit where a dependant person is being misused.
But when people not knowing that they are related enter an assumedly valid relationship then this is misfortunate but far from a horror.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
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In that case, what reason do you think leads to the deaths of Nienor and Túrin after they learn that Niniel was Nienor all along?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
In that case, what reason do you think leads to the deaths of Nienor and Túrin after they learn that Niniel was Nienor all along?
Nienior was already mentaly very fragile, overstrained and pregnant - as such very vulnerable to fall into despair and she felt guilty about causing his brother trouble -s he felt as his weak spot and wanted to remove that weakness from him. And she has had enough - feeling helpless and vulnerable.
He because he failed to protect her both as her husband and her brother and seemigly unable to get anything right.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
What horror? Incest is horrible when it is the misuse of power inside of a familly unit where a dependant person is being misused.
But when people not knowing that they are related enter an assumedly valid relationship then this is misfortunate but far from a horror.
So by that definition Cersei and Jaime isn't horrible incest?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Without saying too much, I know someone who has experienced sibling incest. It was not a positive aspect of this person's life story, and certainly left trauma to be dealt with in future relationships.

It will be quite some time before we get to the Túrin season, but I seriously doubt we have any intention of presenting the incest as a positive or normal occurrence in the story.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
So by that definition Cersei and Jaime isn't horrible incest?
They know that they are related. They live in a well defined family unit. They knowingly overstep boundaries that are known to them.
But actually from Catholic standpoint it is more reprehensible to be sexually active with one's adoptive sibling than a stanger biological one as long as you did not known about the blood kinship. But in Catholic thinking any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong as such such details have little weight in the end. Still molesting a dependant inside a family unit when a part is bound to protect the other is considered especially grave.

As far I know marrying close relatives was not necesary frowned upon in pagan times, also in Europe, for the elites. Ruling men usually had several wives and marrying one's father's widow(s) did happen. Halfsisters seemed to have been mostly fine for marriage - full sisters - grey area.

The Romans had a marriage prohibition for close kin up to 5 degress of kinship which the Church later adopted and modified.

But nobody would consider people getting married when they did not know they were sibling as dishonourable, just extremely unfortunate.
Murdering someone = bad; unknowingly marrying one's sibling = very bad luck.
 
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Rob Harding

Well-Known Member
Yeah, just to say, let’s for a minute pretend once more we are actually trying to adapt the show for TV. Like, for an audience. That might want to watch these stories. Probably let’s not celebrate incest, yeah? Cool.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Yeah, just to say, let’s for a minute pretend once more we are actually trying to adapt the show for TV. Like, for an audience. That might want to watch these stories. Probably let’s not celebrate incest, yeah? Cool.
Let's not celebrate suicide either. The problem did not warrant killing herself and her unbotn child. Escaping Morgoth's curse actually far more.
 

Rob Harding

Well-Known Member
Also agree with this. However, if we do want to tastefully broach the tragedy of that subject that’s a conversation to have. It’s pretty hard to tastefully tell an incest story.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Also agree with this. However, if we do want to tastefully broach the tragedy of that subject that’s a conversation to have. It’s pretty hard to tastefully tell an incest story.
Like in the original Kullervo story it is one about the dangers of acting before thinking, Turin should have taken care to find out the found girl's indentity first before marrying her. Which could have been done relatively easily - any elf from Doriath woul have been able to identify her. If Turin was aftraid to meet any himself he could have send one of his men in disguise to check if they happen to know about a missing girl running wild in the woods. And elves generally do know stuff.

This actually one of the reasons while such a fuss is made about offical marriage in the Church - to prevent incest (as far it is possible - the older generations have their secrets and the recorded parentage is not always the factual one - but still it will be more often correct than not) which is due to occur if people do not check their identities at all before they come together.

[https://www.intelligentliving.co/genetic-data-thousands-uk-born-extreme-inbreeding/ this is about people born between 1938 and 1967 - now that many do not bother to get married at all - and as such do not bother to have their relation to each other checked not recorded before they come together - the amount will rise.]
 
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Rob Harding

Well-Known Member
Like in the original Kullervo story it is one about the dangers of acting before thinking, Turin should have taken care to find out the found girl's indentity first before marrying her. Which could have been done relatively easily - any elf from Doriath woul have been able to identify her. If Turin was aftraid to meet any himself he could have send one of his men in disguise to check if they happen to know about a missing girl running wild in the woods. And elves generally do know stuff.

This actually one of the reasons while such a fuss is made about offical marriage in the Church - to prevent incest (as far it is possible - the older generations have their secrets and the recorded parentage is not always the factual one - but still it will be more often correct than not) which is due to occur if people do not check their identities at all before they come together.

[https://www.intelligentliving.co/genetic-data-thousands-uk-born-extreme-inbreeding/ this is about people born between 1938 and 1967 - now that many do not bother to get married at all - and as such do not bother to have their relation to each other checked before they come together - the amount will rise.]
I think the last comment largely ignores the ever so slight increase in connectivity that has occurred in the last several decades.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I think the last comment largely ignores the ever so slight increase in connectivity that has occurred in the last several decades.
? If there are more children with unrecorded or not factual paternity and more serial unrecorded relationships in one's lifetime then the chances of running into one's unknown half-sibling rise quite dramatically for the future generations. As such the warning in the Turin story is not really less topical then it was in the original Kullervo story.
 
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