Session 7-03: Sauron and Galadriel

MithLuin

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Our next session will be on Thursday October 19th at 10 PM Eastern Time.

We will be discussing the storylines of Sauron, Galadriel, and the Easterlings.

Sauron's story has to take us through the end of the First Age.
Galadriel's story can be gleaned from Unfinished Tales and/or invented, but some choices do need to be made.
The Easterlings are a very large group of people. How many separate groups do we want to introduce? Certainly people of Bor and people of Ulfang. Also Drúedain (Woses, Wild Men, Púkel-men, Drúath...) Request for a warlord based at Bree at this time. Time to start thinking about these cultures.
 
With Sauron, there's precious little on him after he gets his butt kicked by Huan up to the end of the First Age where he makes a half-hearted repentance. My idea for this season would be to involve him with the Easterlings by having him be present when they show up, meet with them, and leaving it ambiguous which one decides to cast his lot with Morgoth, which would set up his alliances with them in subsequent ages of Middle-Earth... How about having Sauron be the warlord in Bree under an alias?

Another thought I've had is having Brodda, who leads the takeover of Dor-Lómin, be a high-ranking underling for Ulfang and Uldor who takes command after Uldor and his sons are killed.
 
Re Saruon: To what extent do we see him working for himself this season, and to what extent is he still overtly acting as a lieutenant of Morgoth? Is he ingratiating himself this season to make up for his failure at Tol Sirion? Or is he recruiting men to ultimately serve his own purpose? I think perhaps Sauron can at least be conflicted about this in this season.

Another question is who is Sauron going to be talking to in this season? He's isolated now.
 
Another question is who is Sauron going to be talking to in this season? He's isolated now.
Shelob? Kidding.

Could we perhaps have him come across Mîm and Petty Dwarves band? I like the idea of Sauron corrupting them a bit before they run into Túrin next season, more than I like the idea that they are evil because elves hunt them like animals. I believe they were last seen in the closing episodes of S4, but don't recall if they made it to Amon Rûdh, or were simply evicted from Nargothrond. If they're not at AR yet, we could possibly have Sauron run into them on his way East, and he persuades them to head back to Western Beleriand because the elves are losing their grasp there.

I could possibly see Sauron kind of running into different groups as he wanders (petty dwarves, Druedain) before eventually running across the Easterlings and getting the seeds of their eventual betrayal planted.
 
I don't see the petty dwarves as corrupted. That's how other dwarves and perhaps elves see it, but I see people who are struggling to have a society after being rejected by their original folk. I think we can be a bit sympathetic to their plight even as we grow to dislike Mim. I have always felt compassion for Mim when he finds out he was too late to save his son, for example.
 
I don't see the petty dwarves as corrupted. That's how other dwarves and perhaps elves see it, but I see people who are struggling to have a society after being rejected by their original folk. I think we can be a bit sympathetic to their plight even as we grow to dislike Mim. I have always felt compassion for Mim when he finds out he was too late to save his son, for example.
I thought the Petty-Dwarves were already in Beleriand.
 
Re Saruon: To what extent do we see him working for himself this season, and to what extent is he still overtly acting as a lieutenant of Morgoth? Is he ingratiating himself this season to make up for his failure at Tol Sirion? Or is he recruiting men to ultimately serve his own purpose? I think perhaps Sauron can at least be conflicted about this in this season.

Another question is who is Sauron going to be talking to in this season? He's isolated now.
We could have the Easterlings work with Morgoth because of Sauron. They bat for Sauron's team 10 times of 10 whenever he wants them.
 
I don't see the petty dwarves as corrupted. That's how other dwarves and perhaps elves see it, but I see people who are struggling to have a society after being rejected by their original folk. I think we can be a bit sympathetic to their plight even as we grow to dislike Mim. I have always felt compassion for Mim when he finds out he was too late to save his son, for example.
Yeah, I tihnk corrupted was the wrong word... More along the lines of Sauron planting seeds in Mîm's/their heads to distrust elves and men. I know they already have a bit of a trust issue with elves after being run from Nargothrond, but they haven't really dealt with men that we've shown yet, and it will have been 4 seasons once we see them again in Túrin's story, so we may need a small catch-up with them.

But if Sauron is out of Beleriand and they are still in Beleriand at this point, this is a moot conversation. I still feel we should have some sort of catch-up with them before season 8 (or 9?) when they enter Túrin's story.
 
Yes, the Petty Dwarves have retreated to Amon Rûdh following their expulsion from Nargothrond back in Season 4. So, they are already where we need them to be in Beleriand. We've alluded to that being an area to avoid, but have not revisted them since Season 4. They are unlikely to be invited to take part in the Union of Maedhros.

They will appear in Season 8 as part of Túrin's story, so we will see them again soon.
 
so, regarding today's/yesterdays session: for the story from the relationship dynamic between Galadriel and Celeborn arch to work out

I propose their retirement for Ossirant having been initially planned as "family building"

but the two find their political and cultural differences still to huge to unite completely - Galadriel is too grieved by (all) her brothers' recent deaths and too much involved politically with the Feanorians

- so the couple decides to leave their seclusion to go out do their own things for a while - Celeborn is still one of the Dortiathrim first (and will stay so, as we see late with his refusal to pass through Moria with wife and daughter) - so in politics the couple is far from united even after Celebrin's birth.

[otherwise it seems strange that Luthien next door become mother once and grandmother trice though a pure-blood elvish daughter-in-law (so elvish mothers are able to have children in this very area and circumstances, Nimloth alone having three - which we as the audience see - so the problem must be IN Galadriel and not in the surroundings) in the very same settings and Galadriel still stays barren in the very same area and time for seemingly no reason]

Then comes Galadriel political failure with the Easterlings and Doriath's downfall and after the War of Wrath the couple might find themselves again having lost all and everything they held dear except for themselves and then they decide to start all over again from scratch at Lake Evendim and Celebrian is the fruit of their reunion and reconciliation...


This way actually Treebeard's greeting to Galadriel and Celebron makes sense at the end of the TLOTR book, as he had met them in Tasarinan, Ossirand and probably Doriath before childless, and now he greets them with: "A vanimar, vanimálion nostari" [fair ones begetters of fair ones /O beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children] which does seem a "inside joke" between them - and it can only refer to Arwen and her brothers, as Celebrian is no longer there at that time. So it seems Treebeard must have been private to the couple's struggles to sire offspring in the First Age, otherwise this greeting makes no sense.
 
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Could this be the season for my proposed 'Sauron goes East and meets a tribe of nomads and seems maybe on the verge of being Mairon again but the audience isn't sure and in the end sets up a cult in the East?' If that is a vibe people are interested in, I can share thoughts. Cos I have a whole storyline mapped out which was in another thread but happy to reiterate with clarity here.
 
Could this be the season for my proposed 'Sauron goes East and meets a tribe of nomads and seems maybe on the verge of being Mairon again but the audience isn't sure and in the end sets up a cult in the East?' If that is a vibe people are interested in, I can share thoughts. Cos I have a whole storyline mapped out which was in another thread but happy to reiterate with clarity here.


The discussed idea was Sauron set up a "mobile lab" in the barrow downs to proceed with his necromancy research. Nearby future Bree is an capital of a Eriadorian Empire with a God/Priest-King ruling it whom Galadriel approaches to recruit a huge army which she wants to be sent back to Beleriandto help the Feanorians in the war against Morgoth. Sauron, having already had bad experiences with female elves, is worried seeing Luthien's cousin once removed wandering into his new neighborhood. So he becomes one of the God-King's of Bree (which has much longer name then) advisers and seemingly opposes the plan of the Easterlings going West to help the elves, but underhandedly supports it, seeing the seeds of treachery already there just needing a little encouragement to come to fruition on their own.
Celeborn stays behind trying desperately to save Doriath from its approaching downfall.

[Then it would be worthwhile to have a Fankil-figure still in the East.]
 
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Could this be the season for my proposed 'Sauron goes East and meets a tribe of nomads and seems maybe on the verge of being Mairon again but the audience isn't sure and in the end sets up a cult in the East?' If that is a vibe people are interested in, I can share thoughts. Cos I have a whole storyline mapped out which was in another thread but happy to reiterate with clarity here.
This does sound like a good post-War of Wrath plot for Sauron though.
 
Notes:

Into the East! Most of our discussion focused on interpretting the map and history of Eriador.

During the First Age, we imagine dwarf-roads connecting Belegost to the High Pass over the Misty Mountains and Nogrod to Khazad-dûm. These roads may be joined by a north-south road that connects Tharbad to Sarn Ford and/or Bree.

The massive forest (where a squirrel can leap from tree to tree while never setting foot on the ground...) stretches from the Old Forest to Fangorn. The area around Bree - between the North Downs and the Barrow Downs - is imagined as a forest-free low-lying area. This area has become the center of a barrow-building kingdom. At the time of Season 7, there is a ruler at what will become "Bree" - called something more impressive-sounding now that can be worn down to Bree over time.

Brief history of Eriador before this time: House of Bëor passed through on their way to the West, but were a small enough group that no one took much notice. House of Haleth and House of Dunlendings were one people - independent-minded, leave-us-alone types. They were displaced by the arrival of larger, more centrally-organized civilizations. Estolad (House of Hador) and People of Forochel were similarly nomadic, and the original inhabitants of the Bree-land. They were displaced by the arrival of the "Easterlings" that we will meet this season. This group builds stone dwellings and barrows on the downs for their dead. They are much more organized and militant. A smaller separate group will yield both the people of Bor and the later Rohirrim.

At the time we meet them, this sedentary group of Bree-landers is led by a powerful king who rules over a numerous people. The military is led by Ulfang, a popular and beloved general. He is a stand-up guy, honorable...but maybe a bit ruthless, and he probably is a better general than a father. The king feels somewhat threatened by Ulfang's military power, and maintains his own personal guard that is loyal to him and separate from the rest of the military.

Sauron, fleeing east after his defeat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, spots the barrows and decides this is a wonderful place for his next project. He sets up a lab to study *human* necromancy, curious if it can be done. Given the differences in elven and mortal fëar, his research must focus on the preservation of the human hroa near/after death (embalming/zombies). He will play a minor (yet significant) role in this season.

Galadriel's story will begin in Ossiriand. She and Celeborn share concerns about the state of Middle-earth. Celeborn is worried about the silmaril-in-Doriath situation, especially as news of the planned alliance spreads. He decides that it is time for Thingol to get back his diplomatic advisor. Galadriel knows that the Noldor will need more allies. She has a chat with Treebeard, asking him what he has seen on his travels. He tells her of a people he met in the Taur-im-Duinath....the Drúedain. Based on his description, she doesn't think they're the war-like army she's looking for. She asks about the Men who have come from the East...are there more Men out that way? Treebeard tells her that there are many, many Men in those lands, and his description of them sounds promising, so she sets out to go meet them.

Galadriel meets and forms an alliance with Ulfang. Ulfang is interested in her tales of the lands to the west, and has ambitions regarding them. She focuses on the threat to Beleriand (Morgoth), and he is confident that he can help with that problem. At some point, he will suggest his good friend Bor, who has a force of chariots, as an ally to join them.

The king sends Ulfang to Beleriand in the hopes of expanding his kingdom and also getting Ulfang further away. He sends some of his personal guard with Uldor (Ulfang's oldest son) in the hopes that Uldor will be ambitious and take care of Ulfang for the king.

The Fëanoreans meet the Easterlings. Galadriel plays go-between and diplomat, embroiling herself in what will become the Nirnaeth.

After arriving in Beleriand and meeting the elves, Uldor is dismayed to realize that his people will never be considered equals - they will only ever be vassals or slaves of the Elves. He sees an opportunity to seize his father's army and determine the course of the war by turning traitor to the elves before they can betray him. His people are not satisfied with Dor-lómin as the consolation prize for the end of the war.

Galadriel will be involved in the death of Uldor. She will have regrets after this, and be fed up with the fickleness of diplomacy. She will be headed in a more imperial direction next time we see her.

Sauron will be revealed to have been cosy with the king of Bree at the end of the season. The idea to get rid of Ulfang pays off for the king. And Sauron read these people better than Galadriel did.
 
Rob, we will definitely want to tell the story of the Witch-king of Angmar! But that will be much, much later. We are currently ending this season at year 472 in the First Age. So, a single human lifespan can now take characters through the remainder of our First Age seasons (7-12). But we will not be introducing the Men-who-will-become-the-Ringwraiths until much, much later in Silm Film.


So does Uldor kill his father?

Yes
 
Hmm... i'm kinda sceptical on the chariots...

Quote:"According to J.R.R. Tolkien the Folk of Ulfang were hunters and wanderers. They crossed the Ered Luin and passed into Thargelion, where they swore allegiance to Maedhros and his brothers.

The Folk of Bor were farmers. They were, in fact, an easternmost sub-group of a larger group of sedentary Easterlings who settled in northern Eriador and gradually spread north around the Ered Luin.

The Folk of Bor and the Folk of Ulfang were thus never closely associated with each other. In one note published in The History of Middle-earth Tolkien implies that the Folk of Bor had a long trading relationship with the Dwarves and that their relatives who remained in Eriador were among the earliest peoples to live in that region during the Second Age."
 
Would chariots work in Beleriands landscape? It isn't rhun and i see neither, simple farmers, nor nomadic herders deploy chariots.
 
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