Session 7-04: The Frame for Season 7

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Our next session will be held on Thursday November 2nd at 10 PM Eastern time.

We will be choosing the Frame Story for this season.

A few things to consider when suggesting frame story ideas:

1) The theme for Season 7 is HOPE, specifically amdir --> estel. The frame story for Season 6 ended with Arwen finding estel in the fight against Sauron and Aragorn deciding to go off into the wild now that he knows his heritage. So, we could certainly continue that story. Or we could do something different.

2) Frame stories should be chronological with each other. And the story proposed will get approximately 1 hour of screentime over the course of the season. It's essentially one episode worth of material. So, nothing to complicated/involved, and preferably nothing so static that it seems like 'nothing happens' in a single episode. It is ideal to have one point-of-view character/protagonist to focus on for the frame story.

3) Whatever suggestions are made, it would be helpful to suggest how that story will parallel or fit with the story of Húrin and Huor and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
 
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A brief reminder of the frame stories we have done thus far:

  1. Season 1: TA 2941 Gilraen 10 year old Estel is being raised in Rivendell by his mother, and tutored by Elrond concerning the earliest history of the world. Thorin and company pass through Rivendell on their way to the Lonely Mountain.
  2. Season 2: Arwen in Lothlorien contemplates her place in the world and the role of the Evenstar - does she belong in Middle-earth or Valinor?
  3. Season 3: TA 2947 Teenage Estel sneaks out of Rivendell for adventures with the Dúnedain. He befriends Hamilcar, who dies for him.
  4. Season 4: TA 2949 Balin, Gandalf, and Bilbo return to Erebor for an anniversary of the death of Smaug.
  5. Season 5: Gandalf's adventures in Harad as the return of Sauron impacts the area.
  6. Season 6: TA 2952 Arwen returns to Rivendell, concerned that the elves must flee before hope is lost. She meets 20-year-old Estel, who falls in love with her. He decides to go out into the Wild (after learning his name and heritage).

So, the new frame should probably be set in the TA 2953-2958 time frame. And we've had Estel/Aragorn as a central character in 3 of our six frames so far, so it might make sense to do something else this season and return to him for next season's frame.
 
There aren't too many events that occur in that five-year period of time; the primary ones pertain to Gandalf:
  • the last meeting of the White Council where the Rings of Power are debated, Saruman declares that the One Ring "rolled down Anduin to the Sea", then withdraws to Isengard and fortifies it
  • Aragorn meets Gandalf and they become friends.
  • Mount Doom bursts into flame again; we might already have this one in Season 3.
  • The other events pertain to succession: Turgon Steward of Gondor dies and is succeeded by Ecthelion II (father of Denethor) while Fengel King of Rohan dies and is succeeded by Thengel.
 
Maybe it could be focusing on Gandalf who is concerned about things (eruption of Mount Doom as well as Saruman withdrawing and maybe something more) and meets Estel briefly, which gives him hope.
 
I think having the frame be the white council talking and in private conversations between various members thereof. Particularly Galadriel reflecting on events on the main narrative. You build tension about the worry of rising darkness linked to the presence of the rings. What if they can be used somehow to bring back the Shadow? Lots of talk of the kings of the day but how the line of true kings of Men failed when it came to the ring. Then, in the climax, Mount Doom erupts as this terrible portentous omen. But could the meeting with Aragorn could somehow be a final moment of hope.
 
Was any mention made in the framed narrative of season six that Sauron had risen again, declared himself openly, and re-entered Mordor? It’s an ample reason for why Elrond would reveal Estel’s ancestry.

The passing of Turgon and Fengel could contribute to the convening of the White Council. Its members, concerned over the forming of a unified front, might discuss the unlikelihood of defeating Mordor militarily. In an attempt to inspire amdir, Saruman states that the Ring has worked its way to the Sea. This is worrisome because the claiming and fortification of Isengard is an act lacking in amdir. Elrond mentions Aragorn as a cause for estel. The White Council concludes that the Day to move against Mordor has not come. Middle-earth must bide its time.

This conclusion could characterize future framed narratives. The great journeys of Aragorn may make a good frame for Turin. Ecthelion II fortifies Gondor against an assault that is not to come until after his time. We may want to compare Thorongil and Ecthelion II to Tuor and Turgon.
 
Yes, Sauron rising again and entering Mordor is mentioned at the end of the frame in Season 3, and is central to the frame in Season 5 (Gandalf in Harad). So, I certainly think that we're ready for a White Council reaction to that development.....
 
Why is Glorfindel in Middle Earth right now?
It is clear, somebody must be the emissary of the Valar authorized to proclaim at each of Elrond's children births that they are elvish until they decide otherwise. As anybody with even a drop of human blood was doomed by Manwe to be mortal as default, and it up to the Valar to decide the fate of the Half-elven. As such there must be somebody authorized by the Valar to overule this general rule and doom an exception at the birth of each of Elrond's children. And those are born beginning of in the 3rd Age. There isn't anybody else around to do this job.
Should any of Elrond's children marry an elf, Glorfindel must declare the exception again, as all would be affected by the "on drop mortal" rule...
 
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Odola said:
Why is Glorfindel in Middle Earth right now?
It is clear, somebody must be the emissary of the Valar authorized to proclaim at each of Elrond's children births that they are elvish until they decide otherwise. As anybody with even a drop of human blood was doomed by Manwe to be mortal as default, and it up to the Valar to decide the fate of the Half-elven. As such there must be somebody authorized by the Valar to overule this general rule and doom an exception at the birth of each of Elrond's children. And those are born beginning of in the 3rd Age. There isn't anybody else around to do this job.
Should any of Elrond's children marry an elf, Glorfindel must declare the exception again, as all would be affected by the "on drop mortal" rule...
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Right now as in The Silmarillion or the Third Age?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Right now as in The Silmarillion or the Third Age?
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In the frame which is the 3rd age. The question in the discussion was "Why is Glorfindel even here?" (in Rivendell in the 3rd age).
the session was divided in to parts:
 
Odola said:
In the frame which is the 3rd age. The question in the discussion was "Why is Glorfindel even here?" (in Rivendell in the 3rd age).
the session was divided in to parts:
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According to writings Glorfindel returned to Middle-Earth during the Second Age, roughly around the time the One Ring was forged. His purpose was apparently to help Gil-Galad and Elrond.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
According to writings Glorfindel returned to Middle-Earth during the Second Age, roughly around the time the One Ring was forged. His purpose was apparently to help Gil-Galad and Elrond.
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Glorfindel returned as he had no kin of his own in Valinor - all his kin had either perished or were in ME according to Last Writings (HoME 12)- and as he was kin of Turgon, this means Turgon and his wife must have been still in Mandos. [This also mean that Glorfindel is not descended from Indis nor from Finwe, as there were plenty of descendants of those two alive and well in Valinor. If Glorfindel was a kinsman of Turgon and not of any of other descendants of of Finarfin or Finwe, then his connection to Turgon must heave been over Turgon's wife Elenwe the Vanya, maybe as her sister-son - two Vanyarin sisters married to two Noldor - Turgon and x, and also both of Glorfindel's parents must be either still dead in Mandos or taken by Morgoth and unrecoverable.] For sure Tuor must not have been in Valinor at Glorfindel's retun to life and neither was Idril, as those would have been nearest kin to Turgon, so Glorfindel would have stayed with them.

So I do assume Tuor died and Idril was the Sleeper in the Tower of Peal (one possible identity proposed by Tolkien for the Sleeper was Idril, and this does make sense, if Tuor died close to Valinor. She would be in permanent mourning and such it makes sense for her to be put into semi-permanent sleep. - This would also explain how the Valar know what happens to a living mortal in or close to in Valinor, Tuor is the first living mortal that the Valar ever meet.)

How does Glorfindel help Gil-Galad - Gil-Galad gets killed?

How does Glorfindel help Elrond?- the only way that he could is by declaring Elrond's children elvish preliminary. We know from the text that has been declared their fate but not by whom. Manwe himself spoke only of Earendil, Elwing and their sons. Not about Elrond's prospective future children. That was declared later. The only person who could have made such a "declaration" was "Glorfindel, the emissary of the Valar".

He is called the emissary of the Valar, but beyond Elrond he does not do any other emissary work. Otherwise Glorfindel - except for the Witch-King "no-man-kill" prophecy, simply does not do much of anything else. He is a proclaimer of doom only. He is connected to the preservation of the House of Elrond and via him the remnants of the House of Turgon. Beyond that he has no other purpose. He is not mentioned as having left with Elrond for Valinor after the War of the Ring so he probably stayed with Elladan and Elrohir (and their grandfather). Would made sense for an appointed guardian of the last descendants of the House of Turgon.
 
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No, I don't think anyone needs to 'declare' the children of Elrond and Celebrían to be elvish.

The emissary of the Valar in Middle-earth at the end of the First Age will be Eonwë, so we will likely use him to deliver the news to Elrond and Elros that they have a choice to make. When Elrond chooses to forego mortality, he makes the choice for himself, but not for his offspring. They have the 'right' to mortality, if they so choose, as do their descendants. If Elladan or Elrohir had chosen to be counted among the elves, and also married elves, their children would also have the option to choose mortality. Basically, their choices to bind themselves to Middle-earth won't prevent any offspring from leaving the Circles of the World.

So, no further pronouncements of doom are needed for Arwen's choice to be on the table. Eonwë's words to Elrond at the end of the First Age will suffice. Still, we may have Glorfindel say something prophetic about the Evenstar.
 
MithLuin said:
No, I don't think anyone needs to 'declare' the children of Elrond and Celebrían to be elvish.
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As far I do remember it was stated somewhere something that "it was doomed (at their births)." but I cannot find the exact reference, as most of the texts are no longer available online, someone took them down - I assume due to to enforce copyright. I will try to track it down, but it might take some time.

Still Manwe's own wording seems to make such a proclamation necessary:

"Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me."

So only someone authorized by Manwe himself for this very purpose seems to be the only authority to be able to doom such a thing about Elrond's children as to override Manwe's general doom setting up the "one-drop-mortal" rule as the general default for all of Arda.



Here I found something, (but there seems to have been also something more specific, iirc):

“[Elrond:] ‘But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us.’
“‘What is that doom?’ said Aragorn.
“‘That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar,’ answered Elrond, ‘and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.’ (The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)”


So it a "a doom" which is very specific, it concerns Arwen specifically, so it is personal, not general. And as it involves Arwen's aging - or lack of it -, it must have been placed at her birth - or if she was aging like a human child in her childhood (poor Celebrian, that rapid pregnancy and fast-forward child-rearing would have grossed her out) - then at Arwen's coming of age at about 18-21 years old at the latest, but not later than that.

And the only one in the position to put such a doom on Arwen would have been Glorfindel, if specifically delegated by Manwe beforehand to do so - the only other possibility would be Gandalf if he were to be Manwe in disguise - but then Elrond would know Gandalf to be Manwe and their relationship would be completely different.



And that passage shows also that Arwen's having a youth of the Eldar is not something automatically due to her, it is a "special accommodation".
By choosing mortality Arwen returns to her default, she renounces an extraordinary privilege, a special exception to the "one-drop-mortal" ruling of Manwe.


Of course we could decide to change that mechanics for our adaptation, if we deem necessary or worthwhile, but then our alternative should be thought out and make internal sense.


IMHO the need to proclaim the specific doom - the dispensation from the Manwe's general "one-drop-mortal" ruling - is reason enough for Glorifndel to have been sent to ME in advance- there was nobody else there who would have been authorized to do it.

The Valar have invested a lot in making Luthien - the only Ainu-Eruhin hybrid - come into being in the first place and were keen on keeping the two Ainu-derived bloodlines alive in both of the kindreds.
 
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Notes on the Session:

We have decided to set the Season 7 Frame in Third Age 2953. We will be featuring the final meeting of the White Council. The White Council meeting will occur in the ruins of Eregion. The following participants will be present (with the possibility of others being there as well):

Saruman, the leader of the Council, who will give the conjecture about the Ring washing down to the Sea, and also leave the Council 'early'
Galadriel, who will decide to convene the Council
Celeborn
Radagast, who will arrive late to the Council
Gandalf, who will arrive alone to the Council
Elrond, who initially supported Saruman as leader of the White Council
Arwen, accompanying Elrond
Glorfindel, accompanying Elrond
Círdan
Elves of Lothlorien (support staff/entourage)
Elves of Rivendell (support staff/entourage)
Elves of the Havens (support staff/entourage)
Elladan, Elrohir, Aragorn, and Halbarad - Not at the Council, but nearby providing scouting and information gathering

Our point of view character will be Glorfindel


Some other notable choices were made for future frames.

We will aim to have the engagement of Aragorn and Arwen in TA 2980 serve as the frame for Season 12, ending the First Age stories, as well as this 'arc' of frame stories. We will go into the Second Age with Aragorn and Arwen rejecting the Shadow. So, there will be some short time skips in the remaining frames to bring us from 2953 to 2980.

The frames of the 2nd and 3rd Age will not be allowed to go past Bilbo's 111th birthday in 3001 for any seasons that take place before the Hobbit season. So, whatever frames we have will occupy those 20 years (which correspond to the childhood of many LotR characters, Balin's time in Moria, etc, so we should be able to have a variety of frame stories).

We briefly discussed Thorongil. There seems to be 'too much' here to make into a frame story (we'd have to invent it, but it does seem like there are many stories there). It was decided that we can have an 'adventures of Aragorn' season between the Hobbit season and the 6 LotR seasons to tell the Thorongil story in full. So our final 8 seasons are decided.
 
Odola said:
. If Glorfindel was a kinsman of Turgon and not of any of other descendants of of Finarfin or Finwe, then his connection to Turgon must heave been over Turgon's wife Elenwe the Vanya, maybe as her sister-son - two Vanyarin sisters married to two Noldor - Turgon and x, and also both of Glorfindel's parents must be either still dead in Mandos or taken by Morgoth and unrecoverable.]
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Just noticed that making Glorfindel a sister son of Elenwe would made him Idril's cousin on the other side and as such an "anti-Maeglin".
 
Was there a particular reason why the meeting of Aragorn and Arwen was moved to TA 2952? In the Tale of Years, the meeting occurred in TA 2951. It seems that Sauron’s reentry into Mordor earlier that year was what spurred Elrond to reveal Estel’s ancestry.
 
What about this? The first call for White Council to convene could have been made in TA 2951. Saruman obstructs this call for conference. This demonstrates the dysfunction of the council. It is not until the passing of Turgon and Fengel, possibly in the same month, that the Council finally convenes. A discussion of this delay, and the disastrous consequences it could have caused, is where the frame begins. This may be aligned with the alienation of Doriath and Nargothrond after the actions of the Sons of Feanor, which weakened the potential of the Union of Maedhros.

Saruman states that the Ring has worked its way to the Sea. This is an attempt to inspire amdir in the belief that the situation is not so severe. Because Turgon is dead, Saruman could have claimed Isengard and already begun its fortification before the Council convened.

There is also the question of forming another alliance to once again defeat Sauron through strength of arms. The youth of Ecthelion II and Thengel may inspire amdir, as was mentioned in the episode. Why is this option overruled? There is the problem that no men are present at these proceedings. Professor Olsen wanted each party to be in part responsible for the failure of the White Council. I am thinking that Saruman does not want the Council to take any action. The time of the elves has ended. The time of the absent men is approaching. The elves are not going to muster for war. Arwen may be a dissenting voice. Saruman, seizing on the silence of the elves in this matter, may make a motion to conclude the conference. This motion is not seconded, so Saruman simply leaves.

Once Saruman has left, the elves may make some statement of estel. The Day has not come. At this moment, the halfling that accompanied Gandalf to the Council stands forth and says something silly. Elrond tells Gandalf that he should seek Aragorn.

I see no need for security at the conference. Has the arm of Sauron grown long enough to extend into Eriador? Such a gathering of great figures has not been seen… in like… a little more than ten years. Furthermore, the treachery of Saruman being a more immediate threat than Mordor to the concerns of the White Council mirrors how treachery from within the Union of Maedhros was what caused its failure.

At the end of the season six frame, “Aragorn goes out into the Wild.” He should not be supervising the security detail of a dysfunctional group of geriatrics. I see no reason why Aragorn, were he to be present, would not have a say in the counsels taken. He was raised as an elf. He is the heir of Elendil. Galadriel shall set him up with her granddaughter. I do not want the meeting of Gandalf and Aragorn to happen here. It is contrived. Hurin shouts, “Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!” I imagine the final shot of the frame to be from the perspective of spies that Saruman has sent to watch Gandalf as he goes north in search of Aragorn, who is among the Dunedain, and estel.
 
Of the Edain said:
Was there a particular reason why the meeting of Aragorn and Arwen was moved to TA 2952? In the Tale of Years, the meeting occurred in TA 2951. It seems that Sauron’s reentry into Mordor earlier that year was what spurred Elrond to reveal Estel’s ancestry.
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Elrond must tell Aragorn of the latter's ancestry at exactly this as it is the moment when Aragorn's aging slows down to 1/3 of the normal rate. The Dunedain age at the normal human rate until 20/21 years old an then their aging slows down. Aragorn must now that he will live longer and age slower that other Men otherwise he will plan his life wrong. He will plan only for 50-60 year ahead and not for ca 2,5 as long. Elrond wants for Aragorn to delay his marriage, this would completely irresponsible for his bloodline if Aragon would expect to live up only into his 80s.
 
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