Session 7-05: Húrin and Huor

I somehow Always Had imagined littleheart and Earendil Being playfelliws at Gondolin... But you're pribably right-, He should have been older by then.
 
I somehow Always Had imagined littleheart and Earendil Being playfelliws at Gondolin... But you're pribably right-, He should have been older by then.

I have imagined him being born at the Havens, but there is simple not enough time there.
 
Yes, Littleheart should be born in Gondolin. We will not be meeting him in Season 7, though, as we will not be introducing his father Voronwë until later. Galdor is a character, and we know him. He may or may not appear in the Gondolin scenes this season. So, next season, when Turgon wants to send ships, he will speak to Galdor, and at that time Voronwë (and the other mariners) will play a role in the story. So, the earliest we will be meeting Littleheart would be next season (Season 8). Gondolin will not fall until Season 10, so we have some time yet to introduce the characters who will play a role in the aftermath.

Also, a reminder that the timelines in Silm Film will not be matching up with the timelines from the Annals at all points, especially not in the final few seasons. One of the dates that we will likely (but not definitively) keep would be the wedding of Eärendil and Elwing in 525. One of the dates that will almost certainly change will be the second sack of Doriath (and thus the arrival of Elwing at the Havens will not occur in 507, but rather significantly later). As for Littleheart's age, if we would like him to be one of Eärendil's mariners, then yes, he should be born at least 50 years prior to Eärendil's voyages.

The Gondolin portions of Season 7 take place prior to the end of Season 6, so we could be as early as FA 460 in this part of the story. So, a young Littleheart is possible, but not a story we are telling at this time.
 
I thought season 7 and 8 was huor and Turin season and 9 Earendil. What will happen in season 8 and 9 then if Gondolin falls as late as season 10?
 
One of the dates that we will likely (but not definitively) keep would be the wedding of Eärendil and Elwing in 525.

Will Elwing's birth be exchanged in time with that of her brothers or placed even further back in time (difficult, as her parents' marriage lasts only 9 years and the two births are placed 3 years apart.)

Will we keep Elwing's own ca 7-6 year long pregnancy with her twin sons this long or will we shorten it to a more mortal level?

497​
Dior weds Nimloth.​
500​
Eluréd and Elurín born. Release of Húrin. Death of Morwen.​
503​
Births of Eärendil and Elwing. Battle of the Thousand Caves, Battle of Sarn Athrad; death of Mablung of the heavy hand; Lúthien wears the Silmaril. Dior and his family come to Menegroth. Final deaths of Beren and Lúthien. Dior receives the Nauglamír and Silmaril.​
525​
Eärendil weds Elwing, Tuor and Idril depart for Valinor.​
532​
Births of Elrond and Elros.

If we let Earendil and Elwing wait for so many years to start to have children this makes Earendil looking even more guilty when he leaves her with the twin being only 2 years old for his journeys... One would assume he would delay so that he could spend more time with them...

While this is a question for future season still we have Dior and Nimloth soon. We should plan how long we would like Nimloth's and Elwing's pregnancies to be when we calculate the years added in between? Tolkien had various idea about the duration of an elvish gestation and not all of it he incorporated in his timeline. Idril's pregnancy with Earendil seem to have been 1 year old - as ir was in his oldest ideas. Elwing is 5/8 elf and 1/8 Maia by blood so her own pregnancy should not take longer than that of her mother's who was a full blood elf. Are we sticking with the one year of Tolkien's previous writing? + one year recovery time? Then we need some valid reason for Nimloth and Elwing to delay theirs even if the time is pressing them...
It seems we are dealing here with Tolkien extending the elvish pregnancies in some of his stories according to his later ideas while not yet in the others, but we should get them consistent in our story.

We must remember that this is a time before contraception and while elves do conceive at will - do half-elves also? And if so, why would Earendil decide to have his children so late that when he has to sail again they are still that small? Also elves do not suffer illnesses do they cannot be physically in- or sub-fertile, and half-elves probably the same. Elves are more prone to be affected to suffering, so the traumatization through the fall of Gondolin and the sack of Doriath might have affected both Earendil and Elwing to a detriment, both being half-elven.
Whatever route we choose, we should think it trough, decide on something and apply it to all tree mixed couples consistently in our story.

EDIT: in my head-canon Ilfrin Littleheart was sometimes baby-sitting baby Elrond and Elros, taking the toddles to show them the ships in the harbour and singing them some elvish sea shanties...
 
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Obviously this plan is subject to change/renegotiation in the future. But for now, the current plan is:

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So, we're currently in Season 7, both 8 and 9 will be about Túrin. We will then get to the Fall of Gondolin in Season 10.


We have not yet discussed timelines for later seasons, but we have pushed back the 2nd sack of Doriath, so Elwing will be significantly older when she reaches the Havens of Sirion than she is in the original timeline.

We will be giving the half-elven human lifespans and human growth patterns, so I imagine that will include gestation periods of 9 months.
 
We will be giving the half-elven human lifespans and human growth patterns, so I imagine that will include gestation periods of 9 months.
How will a elvish mother react to it? All her mixed children are for her body preterm - born like in the 30th gestation week for a human. How does her body respond to such a expedited gestation? And elves do not have preterm pregnancies and sick newborns as default, so their culture is unprepared for that.

Is giving birth to a human child painful to the elvish mother? [this is a problem of potentially theological consequences, as for a many centuries in the Christian tradition the pain of labour was considered a specific consequence of the Fall, which the elves according to Tolkien are not part of. And Tolkien's idea of the Fall of Men is a Christian one, also in Middle-Earth]. An elvish body should be able to deliver fast and without problems.

Also the growing up of such a child is expedited while the acquisition of bodily mastery is slowed compared to an elvish child - how can an elvish mother deal with it and adjust to it? Also humans need to eat and sleep more. Can she nurse a human child without problems?

What is with the amount of life-force both an elvish mother and father are expected to "pump" into their offsping - mortal fathers simply cannot do that - how does an elvish mother compensate for that? Does it drain her more?
Are those problems which made Idril decides against having a second child? She had well time enough to have 2 more at least before Gondolin falls.

If we keep Elwing and Earendil's wedding at the same time it is in the original timeline how come they have their twins only after 7 years? Without contraception this suggest fertility problems. Elves do not have them, but do half-elves?

If they do, then are mixed children as prone to sickness and illnesses and physically vulnerable as normal mortal children? How do the elves taking care of Elwing cope with that while she is little? - they had never experienced this before and have no methods to deal with it?

Would elves not try to use their (healing) magic to adjust a mixed child to a development path and pace that is more familiar and normal to them, considering the human deviation from it pathological?
Was the visit of human teenagers and watching them grow up enough to make the Gondolindrim aware of how human babies grow? How?

How does Annael cope with Tuor's out of turn development?

Are all the elves assisting Rian's birth not traumatized by the for them gruesome experience? How does do they keep Tuor alive as newborn, who nurses him?

And how does Nimloth manage to give birth to three mixed children without herself and her surrounding freaking out? How does she and Ossiriand and later Doriath adjust to raising so strangely developing beings?
O.k. if we make Elwing being the firstborn and Dior knows he will die someday then him and Nimloth trying for a boy next makes sense, as Dior needs a heir...

How is Dior allowed to marry this young? He lives with a society where the age of consent is 50? Beren's age (33?) was not clear to most Doriath's elves as they have only known his as an adult already. But Dior they have raised from birth and he was allowed to marry - and an elf at that - at mere 27?

Does Elwing have menstrual cycles - there is no reason why elvish women should have them, as they conceive at will. They are only needed if the conception process is automatized and out of willful control, for an elvish woman to have them would be just a waste of resources. If so, without any mortal woman in Elwing's surrounding Elwing should be grossed out and horrified as she has nobody to teach her how to deal with that. Also elves would not expect her to get bodily mature before she is 50. So none of her maids would prepare her for anything yet.

Most of this might remain unexplained to the audience still the little that we show of it must make sense. In a myth beings get born just because the story requires them to and the why and how is nobody asked by nobody, in a tv visual rendition this should at least be somewhat believable, as this is a story where we show it- we see Rian's pregnancy and assumably signal her labour, we see Gondolin reacting to the birth of Earendil, we see Elrond and Elros as babies and toddlers growing up among an elvish "court" at the Havens.

The story simply does not allow us to gloss over some of the issues concerned here.
We should know what we want here and how it does make sense.

The simplest way to avoid all those problems would be to go with one of Tolkien's rejected ideas, that elves develop completely like humans in their youth and slow down only after they are of age -e.g. 18-20 for elf-maidens and 20-24 for elf-men.

But this would render the 50 year mark as the age of consent strange - but it would help us with Dior to get rid of it, too...
 
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As far as dealing with out-of-turn development, Annael has lived amongst the elves of Dor-Lómin for some time and since there's been some interaction it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he knows that Men age faster than Elves.
 
I think you perhaps misunderstood what I intended. Elwing, being half-elven, will reach adulthood in her young twenties and, when she becomes pregnant, will carry her babies for 9 months. I was referring to the typical mortal nature of the half-elven. I was not commenting on an elven mother (such as Idril or Nimloth). Though I don't foresee our show delving into the difference between the 9 month human gestation and 1 year elven gestation periods. Also, we are getting rather far afield from the topic of Húrin and Huor, or their sojourn in Gondolin. Perhaps it would be better to continue this conversation elsewhere.
 
Unless you're Míriel.

She had no problem with the delivery itself but with the recovery after it. This is a completely different issue. She has overspentd her life-force and had too little left to recover easily. The is not a physical problem with her hröa but a spiritual one with her órë. In humans broadly understood spirituality has usually little to do with childbirth, while in elves a lot.
 
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I think you perhaps misunderstood what I intended. Elwing, being half-elven, will reach adulthood in her young twenties and, when she becomes pregnant, will carry her babies for 9 months. I was referring to the typical mortal nature of the half-elven. I was not commenting on an elven mother (such as Idril or Nimloth). Though I don't foresee our show delving into the difference between the 9 month human gestation and 1 year elven gestation periods. Also, we are getting rather far afield from the topic of Húrin and Huor, or their sojourn in Gondolin. Perhaps it would be better to continue this conversation elsewhere.


O.k. will open a new thread about Elwing. But for Gondolin and Húrin and Huor we have the point that this is the only point in time where elves of Gondolin are confronted with mortal bodily development, as they see teenager growing up into men in a couple of years. And this would not be overlooked, Earendil is Turgon's royal grandson, all the city takes a fervent interest in his development. The only point in time that the elves of Gondolin could have learned anything about it so as to not be alarmed later by baby Earendil's to them strange growing pattern is when Húrin and Huor were there, as Tuor comes to them all grown up already. [BTW Tuor never met his father while Idril does remember Huor well - does Tuor have a personal problem with it? He could have... He could consider this "an unjust fate".]


Remember those elves who met humans mostly only as adults have no idea about human gestation, delivery, infancy, childhood and youth. They should be surprised by it - this is not their default.
 
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Yes, I propose a scene where an elf guesses or assumes the age of one of their mortal guests, only to be wildly off (too high). It should come as a surprise when they learn how young Húrin, Handir, and Huor are.

Thei smplest way to avoid all those problems would be to go with one of Tolkien's rejected ideas, that elves develop completely like humans in their youth and slow down only after they are of age -e.g. 18-20 for elf-maidens and 20-24 for elf-men.

But this would render the 50 year mark as the age of consent strange - but it would help us with Dior to get rid of it, too...

No, we will not be using that idea. We've already shown too many elven characters come of age, and most notably Maeglin did so during a season with mortal characters where we cannot handwave the years that have passed. We decided to go with the long childhood, reaching maturity at 50-100 years of age. (For more ambitious characters like Maeglin and Fëanor, it'll be 50; others may take their time a bit).

This will be significant during the next season with the friendship of Túrin and Nellas. When it begins, they are both children. But then he grows up and she stays a child, so that she is very young and shy when she is brought into court.
 
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I think I missed this session, but did we decide what Húrin's attitude/philosophy through the season is? Is it one of estel or amdir? Does "Aurë entuluva" come out of an established characterization or is it character development? I'd like to have that established as I think it's key to plotting his character for the season.

In either case I think Huor and/or Handir should serve as a contrasting viewpoint.
 
Yes, Húrin will be more amdir-based throughout. He's joining the Union because he thinks it will work. There is a hint of estel with him, though, as his initial inspiration to want to leave Gondolin and fight feels a bit...inspired. Huor, on the other hand, will be very strongly estel all along. It is when Huor dies that Húrin takes up the mantle of estel with his Aurë entuluva.
 
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