Swords

I wanted to talk about Ringil for a bit, as some had suggested that it be the first sword, and also that Melkor assist Fingolfin in its making.

Firstly, I'd like to see it be a relatively large, two-handed weapon. I know that's not what we typically associate with the elves, but when I envision the duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth, I need to presume a weapon that can stand up to Grond. Of course, we should expect Fingolfin to rely more on evasion tactics, but if their weapons make contact at all, Ringil should have enough weight to at least redirect Grond.

Now, I really like the idea of Melkor advising Fingolfin on the blade's construction, because Melkor could tell him how to make a weapon that could harm an Ainur, never imagining that it would be used against him.
 
Now THIS might be a bit much...Big-Giant-Swords-Season-Two-update-3-490x263.jpg


But maybe something like this, without the elaborate hilt, might be something to consider....
1535-16th-century-two-handed-medieval-sword.jpg
 
Or something like this?

On7skaH.jpg


Seriously, I really like the idea of Fingolfin having a Big*** Sword (TM). It... just seems to fit, somehow.
 
Marielle said:
Or something like this?

On7skaH.jpg


Seriously, I really like the idea of Fingolfin having a Big*** Sword (TM). It... just seems to fit, somehow.
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Is that an estoc? I ask because I've been thinking about one for Gurthang, to make it a little more believable as the weapon which slew Glaurung. I need to check on the words used to describe its use more closely though.
 
Aaah. Yeah, the parrying hooks should have given that away. The only difficulty I would have with a sword _that_ big is that they are a direct response to Renaissance pike squares, which are themselves specialized troops for defending musketeers (or even archers) from cavalry and other infantry formations. Two-handed longswords had been in use for centuries prior to that, just not those kind.

On the flip side, if we depict the Fëanorians stockpiling spears first, the idea of Fingolfin making a Zweihander makes a bit more sense.
 
Can Fingolfin just make *a* sword here, and make a much better sword later in Middle Earth, after he's seen a few battles and learns from them?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Aaah. Yeah, the parrying hooks should have given that away. The only difficulty I would have with a sword _that_ big is that they are a direct response to Renaissance pike squares, which are themselves specialized troops for defending musketeers (or even archers) from cavalry and other infantry formations. Two-handed longswords had been in use for centuries prior to that, just not those kind.

On the flip side, if we depict the Fëanorians stockpiling spears first, the idea of Fingolfin making a Zweihander makes a bit more sense.
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*Shrug*

I just thought it looked awesome. But we discussed spears already, and the possibility of giving Irime a glaive-like weapon...?

MithLuin said:
Can Fingolfin just make *a* sword here, and make a much better sword later in Middle Earth, after he's seen a few battles and learns from them?
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That's certainly possible, but it's hard to envision doing better than what you make under a Vala's supervision. Also there's Tolkien's whole "everything later is always worse" thing.
 
Well, yes, that's the problem we're facing. Middle-Earth craft doesn't work exactly as we would expect. However, there is real-world precedent for this. Dark ages do happen and we lose knowledge. Damascus steel is a good example of this. Today, we are just beginning to figure out how it works. They've even discovered carbon nanotubes in ancient blades. Now, modern steel is just as good, but we had to develop it in a completely different way after the technology was lost.
 
Oh, I agree that is should be an amazingly great well-made sword. The forging process can be at the pinnacle of advanced, as far as I'm concerned.

But a design specifically geared to fight particular weapons, crafted by someone who has never seen warfare? It just....asks for a lot of suspension of disbelief and will look incredibly anachronistic, won't it?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I think we can do that. Maybe show him using the techniques Melkor taught him to make Ringil, a much more specialized blade later on.
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Could we give the forging of Ringil a "moment of purpose"? That is, could Fingolfin make the sword with the intent of driving it into Morgoth's flesh? That could explain why it's so massive...
 
Maybe we have Melkor teaching Fingolfin how to create a sword as a way to defend yourself should you get attacked by a fell beast and can't get your bow out in time.. Feanor sees this sword hanging on the wall of Fingolfin's chateau and decides that this is a good idea. Neither of them, at that time, thinking of swords as weapons of war.

But, after Feanor draws his sword on Fingolfin, Fingolfin decides that he needs to enter this particular arms race. So while he helps provide swords for his following, he takes the time to craft one especially for himself, and that is Ringil.
 
Ray Burns said:
Maybe we have Melkor teaching Fingolfin how to create a sword as a way to defend yourself should you get attacked by a fell beast and can't get your bow out in time.. Feanor sees this sword hanging on the wall of Fingolfin's chateau and decides that this is a good idea. Neither of them, at that time, thinking of swords as weapons of war.

But, after Feanor draws his sword on Fingolfin, Fingolfin decides that he needs to enter this particular arms race. So while he helps provide swords for his following, he takes the time to craft one especially for himself, and that is Ringil.
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The sword is less useful than a knife as a weapon against a wild animal that gets past your bow and your spear. The estoc I mentioned above has some use as a hunting weapon, but only to show just how brave the user was, risking their life to be so close to their prey. Gladiators with swords pitted against wild animals typically did not last very long.

If an animal gets past spear range, you likely won't have room to use a sword either. It is purely a weapon of war.

I would rather think that the arms race leading up to Ringil's forging comes later. The elves begin to use heavy cavalry against the orcs, who respond with pikes, forcing elvish battle-line officers to take up larger swords to lead their own infantry into the forest of spears coming towards them.
 
Yes, there is very little 'innocence' to the Noldor making swords. These are weapons of war, and the only vestige of innocence they get is that they are aimed at conquest of Middle Earth.

This is very much like preaching the Crusades as, "Christians! Stop killing each other! Put your weapons to good use and go over...there. And kill infidels!"

If people are okay with Ringil being a 'simple' sword, then I won't object to it being forged now in Valinor (very appropriate in Tolkien's world that the first/early work is the greatest, and Aulë is right there). My objection was purely to the result-of-an-arms-race innovation and details being present 'from the beginning.'

Also, I question how ridiculously big Ringil needs to be. Fingolfin can't counter Grond. It rends the earth making gaping holes that he can trip and fall into. If Grond hits him, he's smashed. Now, I recognize that whoever is choreographing the duel might want to give Fingolfin the option to deflect the weapon at least once, as that adds a ton of tension in a 'oh no, he's going to get hit!' kind of way. But...he's not going to do that. He's going to dodge,until he stumbles and gets stepped on, and then hack at Melkor's heel while he's smothered. He has a horse at the beginning of this duel....so does that matter?
 
Being on horseback does matter. It makes it more difficult to dodge a sudden blow.

I don't think we need him to have a buster sword, but a hand and a half sword at least.

Parries with metal weapons shouldn't directly oppose the attacking weapon, as that is a risk to your blade no matter what. The desired result is to divert the attack past your own body.
 
Yes, I understand that. ;)

I am saying that (clearly) Fingolfin is not on horseback during this fight, but he rides his horse to get there. So....what happens to the horse, and what are the circumstances of Fingolfin dismounting? We have some options there.
 
My thoughts

1) Melkor helped Fingolfin with the knowledge and groundwork that makes Ringil so effective (Fingolfin may not have forged Ringil right away, but he definitely uses the knowledge he gets from Melkor in its forging)
2) Ringil is a bada** sword, maybe the best sword forged by the Children ever
3) When Fingolfin makes his mad charge, we can show that he blows through Morgoth's troops like they're nothing, and maybe even kills a few Balrogs. He does most of this from horseback, but he does dismount and kill some more.
4) All of Morgoth's troops realize that this is a bada** sword and flee, leaving Fingolfin alone at the gates of Thangorodrim. Fingolfin sends his horse home (because you know people will wonder) because he either kills or is killed by Morgoth, either way he won't need the horse right away.
5) Morgoth recognizes that Fingolfin's blade was forged with the knowledge he shared with Fingolfin and knows that while it might not be able to kill him (and we should show that Morgoth isn't really sure on that point), it can do some damage, thus his reluctance.
6) Morgoth uses every advantage he can and still is wounded and might have actually been slain had his physical body not been 20 feet tall. This shows that Fingolfin truly was one of the mightiest elves ever, but also shows just how powerful Ringil was.
7) At the end of the battle, we need to show that Morgoth destroys Ringil because we cannot have a hint that such a powerful blade still exists (or I can see someone trying to say that Narsil was actually Ringil and blah blah blah)

again, my thoughts
 
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I support your outline Ray. Great. Further it is told "Ringil glittered like ice", so for me it is no ordinary sword, but a magic sword.

We already had some Ringil discussions back in Nov (here).
 
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Well, not to put the kabosh on my own idea, but it would appear that Fingolfin uses a shield. A bastard sword would seem to be the largest we could go for Ringil. Also, the description shows that either he dismounted before the confrontation, or his horse was summarily slain when he "leapt aside" from Melkor's first attack.
 
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