The Female Orc Problem
- Thread starter Jim Deutch
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Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
I'm unearthing this again since, as part of planning an rpg, I've been fleshing out orc culture as I want my players to encounter a vast orc camp.
This is the orc-lore, I've developed for my fan-based derivative work. Obviously this isn't canon but as it is borne of this conversation, I wanted to share it here.
This is the orc-lore, I've developed for my fan-based derivative work. Obviously this isn't canon but as it is borne of this conversation, I wanted to share it here.
- A Celebration of Ugliness: To the orcs, the vile and repulsive hold a peculiar allure. Their perception of beauty is skewed, for they do not find it in the traditional sense. Instead, they see value in that which is ugly, reviled, and abhorred. It's not merely that they accept ugliness; they genuinely appreciate the twisted, broken, and hideous aspects of existence. It is not that they see beauty as ugly. They know the ugly and frightful for what it is and that is what they hold of value. They also value that which is not made to last. If a thing is breakable and transient, it has the potential to be destroyed and create hurt; the two things of most value to an orc. That which is considered by others to be beautiful and permanent, they see as grotesque: none more-so than elves. Their society revels in what others would consider grotesque, finding a strange form of beauty in the very things that are meant to be despised. This skewed perspective is not a result of upbringing; it's a core aspect of their being, a belief that to create hate is, in itself, a form of beauty.
- Matriarchal: The orc society operates on a unique principle akin to the organization of insect hives. Within their grim hierarchy, certain females take on the role of breeding mothers, dedicated solely to producing offspring. These orc queens, as they are informally known, give birth to multiple siblings with astounding frequency, ensuring a constant influx of new recruits for the orc military machine. Mass creches become the battlegrounds where young orcs scrap, fight, and learn the art of war, all while preparing for their destined roles in the ever-expanding ranks. The entire orc society revolves around a relentless cycle of birth and warfare, with the queens as the life-givers of their brutal existence.
- Orc births are gruesome, violent, and often fatal for mothers, but within this brutality lies a twisted form of transcendence. Those orc females who survive these horrific ordeals are revered as leaders of the highest order. Their ability to withstand the most excruciating suffering and pain marks them as the ultimate authorities in orc society. Those who have faced it time and again, who have lived through hate and hurt, take on the role of background tacticians, or as much as orcs can be strategic. These orc matriarchs make critical decisions about battle plans, target selection, and the allocation of resources. While orc males may execute the tactical aspects of warfare, it is the matriarchs who shape the overarching strategies that guide their savage campaigns. These females stay behind in the encampments to birth, train, and equip the next wave of orc broods, all while pregnant with future warriors. Figures like Azog, Bolg, and the Goblin King stand as patriarchal anomalies in the orc world. They have risen to power through charismatic and ruthless methods that defy the usual order. Their ascent to dominance, while unconventional, highlights the malleable nature of orc culture when faced with magnetic and ruthless leaders.
- Taboos and Silence: Orc society is plagued with taboos that dictate what cannot be spoken of. Mentioning the great mothers is strictly taboo, as they are regarded as sacred entities who can see and hear all. Additionally, it is forbidden to discuss cowardice or openly speak of one's loyalty to brood pits or masters, as such expressions are seen as signs of weakness.
- A Culture of Self-Strength: Loyalty itself is a taboo concept within orc society. The prevailing belief is that demonstrating loyalty to a brood pit or master is a sign of weakness. Orcs are raised to uphold the strength of the self above all else, in stark contrast to honor-and-shame cultures. Battle is not a matter of pride or conscious choice; it is simply what orcs do. There's no need for convincing or philosophical contemplation; it's an ingrained, inevitable aspect of their existence, driven by the dark forces that have warped their very essence. War breeds hate and hate is beautiful. Leaders, orc matriarchs or external leaders, are followed only so long as they allow orcs to breed and breed hate.
- Ritualistic Scarification: In orc society, the act of self-mutilation through scarification holds profound cultural significance. Orcs, from birth, engage in scarification rituals to adorn themselves with grotesque patterns and symbols. These scars serve as badges of honor, reflecting an individual's capacity to endure pain and suffering. The more elaborate and extensive the scars, the higher an orc's standing within the community. Such scarification extends to weaponry and tools, with intricate designs etched into blades, armor, and banners, celebrating the artistry of violence.
- War Paint Ceremonies: Orcs engage in elaborate war paint ceremonies before battle, further emphasizing their connection to the macabre. These ceremonies are a communal affair, combining the artistic and the brutal. War paint is crafted from a mixture of blood, ash, and various noxious substances, creating ghastly, visage-altering designs on their faces and bodies. The process serves both as a means of psychological intimidation and as a ritualistic preparation, symbolizing their willingness to embrace the horrors of warfare.
- Trophy Totems: Orcs have a morbid fascination with collecting trophies from their fallen foes. These trophies often take the form of grisly body parts, such as ears, fingers, or even skulls, which are displayed prominently in their encampments. The act of collecting and displaying trophies is a reflection of their culture's obsession with the glory of pain. The more a thing can represent and instil torment, the more valued the collection. Some collectors develop constructs to terrify and disturb onlookers on the battlefield in a way that might be considered art.
- Tribal Language of Agony: Orcs have developed a unique language of agony, a guttural and harsh form of communication that reflects their culture's emphasis on suffering. This language is used not only in battle but also in everyday life, with orcs often expressing themselves through grunts, growls, and howls that convey their shared love of pain and hate. Words are deliberately chosen to evoke distress and despair, reinforcing their connection to the dark and the detestable. There are groups dedicated to identifying those with a predilection for the most visceral, frightful forms of calls. These are trained to begin the war-chants on the battlefield. They are, in essence, blood-choirs.
- Architecture of Malevolence: Orc encampments are constructed with a deliberate focus on evoking fear and intimidation. Buildings are designed to appear chaotic and menacing, with sharp angles, jagged edges, and grotesque decorations. Torches and fires cast eerie shadows on the walls, creating an atmosphere of perpetual darkness. The architectural style serves as a constant reminder of the orc culture's obsession with the grotesque and their celebration of all that is loathed and abhorred.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Interesting.
This need some work upon as not completely feasible. A bee or ant queen lays eggs almost constantly, but those are cared for mostly by the workers only except for the very start of her colony. As such the time invested in one egg is little compared to a mammal's offspring. An orc matriarch imho should be mostly in a post-productive age - an orc grandmother who function more like a "madam" in a brothel than as a queen bee who is an "egg making machine" - except for the intermediatory stage when she is just taking over a breeding pit. When she has already birthed some now adults famous orc war leaders her status is high but she has chosen/inherited herself a "court" of potential "next-in-line" ladies who now take over the breeding process with several levels/casts of breeding orc females below them. She is the one who commands which of her "ladies" breeds with whom and if the resulting babies are kept or disposed off. She also arranges that some male young-adult offspring from another breeding pits is assigned to hers, as while orcs might value malformation, they still must stay functional, so they have to keep the inbreeding within some limits.
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Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
Interesting thoughts.
I’ll stick with what I have but still intriguing.
Here’s a little more, jus to flesh things out. As you can see below, orcs have loose rituals but even these aren’t intended to be fixed in stone and no real structured government. As such, queens take on an advisory role out of some form of respect. But, conversely, respect isn’t permanent and could be ignored, particularly when not at ‘home’ (such as it is). If you don’t speak of the matriarchs, they can’t hear you. And you therefore don’t need to listen to them.
I’ll stick with what I have but still intriguing.
Here’s a little more, jus to flesh things out. As you can see below, orcs have loose rituals but even these aren’t intended to be fixed in stone and no real structured government. As such, queens take on an advisory role out of some form of respect. But, conversely, respect isn’t permanent and could be ignored, particularly when not at ‘home’ (such as it is). If you don’t speak of the matriarchs, they can’t hear you. And you therefore don’t need to listen to them.
- Orc governance and politics are inherently chaotic and brutal, mirroring the rest of their society. The orc world is often divided into tribal fiefdoms, each guided by orc-queen matriarchs who hold power through sheer strength, charisma, and brutality. There are no formal elections or hereditary monarchies; leadership is established and maintained through combat and dominance, adhering to the fundamental principle that "might makes right." These chieftains form alliances with other tribes to achieve common goals but these alliances are based on temporary agreements and shared interests, with no loyalty among orc tribes. Leadership is in a constant state of flux, as ambitious orcs challenge their leaders through combat, duels, or assassination attempts, with the victorious challenger becoming the new leader. These leadership changes can be frequent and tumultuous. A particularly powerful orc may unite several tribes under their banner, forming a council of warlords, but these councils are often rife with power struggles and betrayals. Resource acquisition is the primary focus of orc governance, with tribes and warlords constantly vying for control of fertile lands, mining operations, or valuable artifacts. Disputes are resolved through violence or intimidation, as orc society lacks a formal legal system, and disloyalty is swiftly punished. The orc culture operates on a "survival of the fittest" ethos, where only the strongest and most ruthless thrive. However, some tribes have a slightly more structured approach to leadership. When an orc aspires to lead, they must present their case to the under-matriarchs within their tribe, who evaluate the aspirants' claims. If deemed worthy, the matter is brought before a tribal assembly gathered in a ritualistic ring, where the entire tribe has a say in the selection of their leader through volatile deliberations, vocalised through unified chanting and roars. If the chants out loud enough, the challenger may advance into the ring. The final decision comes down to trial by combat between the two most promising leadership aspirants, with the victor declared the chosen leader, their authority sanctioned by the tribal assembly. They will generally still defer to the orc-queen matriarch and under matriarchs. Leadership changes can occur frequently in this system, with challenges and evaluations through the tribal assembly being a constant aspect of orc politics, always with the goal of resource acquisition at its core. The orc-queens play a crucial advisory role, guiding tribal chieftains with their wisdom and experience, ensuring a degree of continuity in tribal strategy amidst the volatile leadership landscape.
- Orc names are characterized by their simplistic and guttural nature, often consisting of one or two syllables for practicality and ease of pronunciation. These names prioritize functionality over tradition, as orcs are more concerned with survival and warfare than preserving heritage. Designed to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies, orc names feature harsh and menacing sounds, emphasizing violence and destruction, such as "Gruk," "Urzog," or "Morg." Gender distinctions are not rigid in orc names, reflecting the society's focus on strength over traditional roles and aversion to that which is fixed and permenant. Orc names can change over time based on accomplishments, and leaders often bestow names upon their followers, influenced by their dark vision or roles in the tribe. Orcs lack sentimentality regarding their names, ready to adopt new names if it serves their interests.
- Orcs obtain sustenance through a brutal and resourceful approach that mirrors the harshness of their culture. They rely on scavenging and foraging as opportunistic scavengers, seeking sustenance amidst the desolation of war-torn landscapes, often finding beauty in the grotesque act of consuming carrion and the remains of fallen enemies. Additionally, orc survival involves pillaging and raiding neighboring regions, stealing livestock, crops, and supplies, not only for sustenance but also to sow chaos among their enemies. Some orc encampments engage in rudimentary subsistence agriculture, cultivating hardy roots and fungi with little regard for maintenance and recycling of the land. In the direst circumstances, certain orc tribes resort to cannibalism, consuming the flesh of fallen comrades or foes as the ultimate form of macabre sustenance. Obtaining clean water can often be a challenge, especially in the rugged landscapes orcs are often driven to inhabit. Orcs will collect water from any available source, regardless of its quality, thanks to their unusual resistance to waterborne diseases and toxins.
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Odola
Well-Known Member
The issue with a hive structure is that there you have one or few queen(s) who do nothing else beyond laying eggs and a whole nation a sterilized female workers of various casts and were few drones who are useless beyond the swarming itself.
So to reproduce the structure you would need 80-90% of a breeding pit be females orcs who are somehow kept from breeding. And if so, also not able to breastfeed the queen's offspring - or they know of some ways to cause lactation without pregnancy - which is possible - but difficult. And the queen would need to have multiples each time she gives birth. Still the ability of orcs to rebuild their populations and increase their numbers in a few decades would be difficult if you limit the number of breeding females this much, as a gestation period of only one week would be simply unbelievable...
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
Okay. Sticking with what I have for that aspect though. Perhaps it’s unclear but I didn’t envision queens as the only breeders of the tribes
Odola
Well-Known Member
So you have to think the system through in advance to make it coherent... It is a complex system which has to be balanced to work... One element taken out will not work on its own...
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
In retrospect I did tweak it as I didn't love the concept of value coming from birth and female orcs purely having value as breeders. I wanted to rather hone in on the idea that the pain of childbirth is seen as a thing of value. As such, I felt your set up of the queen being a seasoned elder orc worked nicely.
This is the reworking which I think sets up a nice dichotomy.
This is the reworking which I think sets up a nice dichotomy.
- Matriarchal: The orc society operates on a unique principle akin to the organization of insect hives. Within their grim hierarchy, certain females take on the role of breeding mothers, dedicated solely to producing offspring. Orc births are gruesome, violent, and often fatal for mothers, but within this brutality lies a twisted form of transcendence. Those orc females who survive these horrific ordeals are revered as leaders of the highest order. Their ability to withstand the most excruciating suffering and pain marks them as the ultimate authorities in orc society. Those that have faced it time and again, who have lived through hate and hurt, and are now past breeding age themselves, take on the role of background tacticians; as much as orcs can be strategic. These orc queens make critical decisions about battle plans, target selection, and the allocation of resources. While orc males may execute the tactical aspects of warfare, it is the matriarchs who shape the overarching strategies that guide their savage campaigns. Female orcs of breeding age take the role of under-matriarchs. These females stay behind in the encampments to birth, train, and equip the next wave of orc broods, all while pregnant with future warriors. Mass creches become the battlegrounds where young orcs scrap, fight, and learn the art of war, all while preparing for their destined roles in the ever-expanding ranks. Orcs give birth to multiple siblings with astounding frequency, ensuring a constant influx of new recruits for the orc military machine. The entire orc society revolves around a relentless cycle of birth and warfare, with the queens as the life-givers of their brutal existence.
Odola
Well-Known Member
seems workable now
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Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
On addendum:
'That said, while orc queens may be respected for the pain they have endured however, should they continue to grow into old age, their respect is lessened and the older the orc, the less likely they are to be listened to, due to the orc’s innate abhorrence and disgust for anything that seems to be made to last. To become an orc-queen is a position none seek by are appointed to in a de-facto sense by virtue of the life lived and it is a role that is not meant to last long.'
'That said, while orc queens may be respected for the pain they have endured however, should they continue to grow into old age, their respect is lessened and the older the orc, the less likely they are to be listened to, due to the orc’s innate abhorrence and disgust for anything that seems to be made to last. To become an orc-queen is a position none seek by are appointed to in a de-facto sense by virtue of the life lived and it is a role that is not meant to last long.'
Odola
Well-Known Member
interesting but a little counterintuitive - I would think an aging orc matriarch would be quickly removed by the next one in line... But if the position is appointed and undesirable would an orc female not just reject or abandon it? - Especially if they are raised to pose as thinking only of themselves to not to honour any social obligation? A little difficult in this context to believe...
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
It’s not that it’s undesirable it’s just not an official appointment as there is no set government. It’s defecto in the sense that it’s accepted at a certain point that you will become the new queen. It’s less a formal rank than suddenly, you’re the one people start coming to for advice and you end up filling this role. What happens to the old queen? Probably not nice.
Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
It’s interesting. Not sure how I feel. The Hyena myth came from people mis-sexing hyenas due to unique anatomy (by far not the weirdest in the animal kingdom). There are a number of species, certain reptiles spring to mind, that can trigger asexual reproduction when numbers are too low. And other creatures do change sex for breeding purposes. Combining those to make up numbers lost to battle is cool. I do love a fantasy race that is feels unique and fresh but would need to think of it fits into my concept of orcs and what I want to keep and lose.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Then they could repent at any time.
And half-orcs would be not possible.
And crossing orcs and humans would not be a heinous crime.
Also orcs as humans would not be averse to the sun when half-orcs are not.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Still they would always be able to turn back... And orcs are not. And orcs were already there before humans even awoke...
Many of the thoughts seem focused on how the care and raising of orcs work - but maybe that's where it diverges from the other races? We know there are different rates of growing and aging (Hobbits coming of age at 33, elven immortality, Numenoreans living significantly longer and marking their milestones differently from other Men).
We know that Orcs "breed after the manner of Elves and Men" - but from there, we don't know. Take a foal, for example. Standing typically within an hour of birth, quite large in a matter of months - what if Orcs, rather than being longer-lived, are shorter-lived or at least shorter to reach maturity? They wouldn't have years of forming emotional bonds, they wouldn't need constant care, and they would be able to be battle-ready far sooner - and to continue reproducing - causing quick replenishment of their numbers. Further, who is to say their gestational period is the same? Perhaps they both carry their children for shorter times and do not need to give much thought to childcare.
Fitting, I think, as a mockery of the elven long-life and cherishing of children, a practical way of generating armies far more quickly, and perhaps Morgoth even considered it an improvement in the interests of an efficient source of slaves without the need for much infrastructure for family life.
We know that Orcs "breed after the manner of Elves and Men" - but from there, we don't know. Take a foal, for example. Standing typically within an hour of birth, quite large in a matter of months - what if Orcs, rather than being longer-lived, are shorter-lived or at least shorter to reach maturity? They wouldn't have years of forming emotional bonds, they wouldn't need constant care, and they would be able to be battle-ready far sooner - and to continue reproducing - causing quick replenishment of their numbers. Further, who is to say their gestational period is the same? Perhaps they both carry their children for shorter times and do not need to give much thought to childcare.
Fitting, I think, as a mockery of the elven long-life and cherishing of children, a practical way of generating armies far more quickly, and perhaps Morgoth even considered it an improvement in the interests of an efficient source of slaves without the need for much infrastructure for family life.
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