The Stockade

Odola

Well-Known Member
While I am still leaning towards the Iceland and Colorado locations, it occurred to me that there is some pretty spectacular landscape in Chile worth checking out. Patagonia is far enough south to have the correct type of vegetation and climate for what we are looking for, I think. And the advantage here is that there are a lot of river splits, creating islands that can give the type of topography we're looking for. I want to find a spot that's not too mountainous, to get the right balance, but as long as there is a relatively stable looking plateau above, I think it might work.


Torres Del Paine National Park








Parque Nacional Yendegaia



I don't know if there is a time of year when the glacial melt makes these rivers more impressive, but if so, this would be a rather interesting spot!

Conguillio National Park

This river might be an okay stand in for the Ascar, but it's definitely no Gelion. There are larger waterways in this park, though.


There's likely something suitable in Parque Nacional Isla Magdalena, as well, but I haven't found any good photos yet.


Here is an aerial video of the confluence of the Baker and Neff Rivers in Patagonia:
The Baker River is blue, while the Neff river is grey, so it is easy to see the waters mingling nicely. What I had not considered before was that it is possible the Ascar has rapids/waterfall descending to the level of the Gelion. It would make sense.
Here is a photo taken from the vantage point of the people seen in that drone footage:
What would be important is to mirrow the scenes when filming as the the North is in the South ;-)
And avoid filming that of the vegetation and fauna (e.g. a mara) in the background which would be obviously regnisable a not Northern hemisphere. Otherwise fine.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
What would be important is to mirrow the scenes when filming as the the North is in the South ;-)
And avoid filming that of the vegetation and fauna (e.g. a mara) in the background which would be obviously regnisable a not Northern hemisphere. Otherwise fine.
Since the vegetation in Middle-Earth does not have to be an exact match of any particular area, I wouldn't be super-concerned.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Since the vegetation in Middle-Earth does not have to be an exact match of any particular area, I wouldn't be super-concerned.
It is not Northern hemisphere of the Old World? Would not something too visible exotic confuse the viewer? (E. g, - like the maize fields in the LOTR movies do? There are imho few things which cry out "post-columbian" and "New World-ish" more than a maize field in a movie). But Patagonia, which very beautiful imho, is also quite exotic. So it would be easy to get something really exotic on film if not carefull.
E.g. the Chilean Firetree grows here only in planted gardens, never wild, it is clearly an "exotic" plant. https://www.shorelineareanews.com/2017/05/photos-rare-sight-chilean-fire-tree.html
Whereas the dandelions growing below it in the last picture are completely fine. (;-))
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Shire has potatoes and tobacco, both New World crops. So, the films giving them tomatoes and corn (maize) is really not any more anachronous than Tolkien's text. However, within the context of Middle-earth, the source of those crops in the Shire is doubtless Númenor, so naturally there is a difference between what you find in the Third Age in Eriador vs what you would find in First Age Beleriand. (Also, we might find a way to involve the Entwives with the early hobbits, which would explain why they have crops that others do not as well.)

At no point do I intend to include maize crops among the Haladin, nor was I planning to shoot the penguins in Patagonia as part of the Ascar-Gelion stockade. If there is a particular type of tree/vegetation that is unwanted, we could avoid it, but I don't think that all of the vegetation in (for instance) the photos I posted is inappropriate.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The Shire has potatoes and tobacco, both New World crops. So, the films giving them tomatoes and corn (maize) is really not any more anachronous than Tolkien's text. However, within the context of Middle-earth, the source of those crops in the Shire is doubtless Númenor, so naturally there is a difference between what you find in the Third Age in Eriador vs what you would find in First Age Beleriand. (Also, we might find a way to involve the Entwives with the early hobbits, which would explain why they have crops that others do not as well.)

At no point do I intend to include maize crops among the Haladin, nor was I planning to shoot the penguins in Patagonia as part of the Ascar-Gelion stockade. If there is a particular type of tree/vegetation that is unwanted, we could avoid it, but I don't think that all of the vegetation in (for instance) the photos I posted is inappropriate.
Yes, I've added an example above which I think would be "too Patagonian" even if clearly very beautifull - the Chilean Firetree .
 

MithLuin

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Staff member
I have been looking at photos of the Bío Bío river in Chile, but no luck yet.

It has been difficult to find the right scale for this. Many of the rivers are too small, while the Gelion should be of significant width. Many junctions are either completely flat, or else have very impressive cliffs - too impressive for what we are trying to do. 20-30' for the height of the cliff face should be the appropriate scale.

I did find one photo where the banks are scaled appropriately, at least:

1627183018671.png

This photo is from the Zambezi river. As you can see, the rocky banks are taller than a person, but not massive unscaleable cliff faces, either. I like this size. Now, as far as white water goes...that should be restricted to the Ascar river side. I think it would be okay if the Ascar has a bit of a waterfall/whitewater drop where it meets the Gelion. The Gelion is placid in comparison, and has a shallow ford just 10-15 miles upstream.

Saddleback Brook in Colorado has appropriately scaled banks, but is a bit narrow to be called a 'river.' Maybe closer to its source the Ascar would look like this, but likely not at its junction with the Gelion.

 
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MithLuin

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Confluence of San Miguel and Dolores Rivers in Uravan, Colorado:

1627185699537.png

I was not exactly hoping for cliffs on the west bank of the Gelion, though.

Here is the confluence of the Dolores and Colorado Rivers near Dewey Suspension Bridge.
River Junction - Colorado and Dolores .png
I cannot tell how tall that cliff is, but considering where in the world this is located, it could be 200' high. I would need a less birds-eye view photo to figure that out. Also, while there's plenty of vegetation on the river's edge, the cliffs are a bit desolate.

A more promising site is further upstream on the Colorado River, near where Coates Creek joins the river. There is an island in the river, and the way the river parts and rejoins around that island could be perfect for us.
1627188485774.png

Here is what that area of the Colorado River looks like, typically:



Moving to a different state, now.... Confluence of Blue River and Colorado River:


I was not expecting to have to travel the world so much to find this particular river confluence, but the search has been interesting!
 
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MithLuin

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It's probably cheating to use waterways that have been dammed, but if the dam is very far away and won't be on film....we can maybe get away with it.
Upper Marsh Creek, Green River confluence (above Flaming Gorge Dam in Wyoming):


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The overall elevation change seems to be about 80 feet, and the boat ramp is on the other side of the peninsula, so this might be a nice site, if I could get a good picture of it.

The Blacks Forks and Green River confluence, a little north of Upper Marsh Creek, is also a possibility.

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Image from Rock Springs, Wyoming:








Parts of the Flaming Gorge have entirely too massive cliffs, but parts are more reasonable. My hope is that by focusing on areas further north (into Wyoming), I can avoid the more 'spectacular' sections.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
It's probably cheating to use waterways that have been dammed, but if the dam is very far away and won't be on film....we can maybe get away with it.
Upper Marsh Creek, Green River confluence (above Flaming Gorge Dam in Wyoming):


View attachment 3815

View attachment 3816

The overall elevation change seems to be about 80 feet, and the boat ramp is on the other side of the peninsula, so this might be a nice site, if I could get a good picture of it.

The Blacks Forks and Green River confluence, a little north of Upper Marsh Creek, is also a possibility.

View attachment 3817

View attachment 3818

View attachment 3819

Image from Rock Springs, Wyoming:








Parts of the Flaming Gorge have entirely too massive cliffs, but parts are more reasonable. My hope is that by focusing on areas further north (into Wyoming), I can avoid the more 'spectacular' sections.
Tha same problem here in Europe, either too high or too flat and if not settled and not barren then completely overgrown.
 

MithLuin

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Staff member
Here are some photos taken from the shore at the Lost Dog location I mentioned above:
1627358572884.png




Still don't have a photo looking back at the Lost Dog site. Based on the topography map, it should rise up appropriately, but...haven't seen a photo yet. There is a road to the site, which is convenient, at least. Landscape does look a bit desolate, though.


1627359399076.png


Maybe another location in Flaming Gorge would be preferable. There's Hideout Canyon (Butch Cassidy territory), or Kingfisher Island.


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Here's video of Kingfisher Island. Obviously the southern side of the island is too steep and a massive cliff, but the 'points' (southwest and north) should be much more appropriate.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Here are some photos taken from the shore at the Lost Dog location I mentioned above:
View attachment 3824




Still don't have a photo looking back at the Lost Dog site. Based on the topography map, it should rise up appropriately, but...haven't seen a photo yet. There is a road to the site, which is convenient, at least. Landscape does look a bit desolate, though.


View attachment 3825


Maybe another location in Flaming Gorge would be preferable. There's Hideout Canyon (Butch Cassidy territory), or Kingfisher Island.


View attachment 3826

View attachment 3827

Here's video of Kingfisher Island. Obviously the southern side of the island is too steep and a massive cliff, but the 'points' (southwest and north) should be much more appropriate.
The Lost Dog looks interesting.
 

MithLuin

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Staff member
One more stab at a location in Iceland:

Fjadrargljufur Gorge




Cliffs are too tall, rivers are too small, and not everything is configured in the correct directions, but....Iceland sure is beautiful as a location!
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
One more stab at a location in Iceland:

Fjadrargljufur Gorge




Cliffs are too tall, rivers are too small, and not everything is configured in the correct directions, but....Iceland sure is beautiful as a location!
Has something both primordial and mythical about it, doesn't it?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
One more stab at a location in Iceland:

Fjadrargljufur Gorge

Cliffs are too tall, rivers are too small, and not everything is configured in the correct directions, but....Iceland sure is beautiful as a location!
3:38 here? (Markarfljót, Iceland)


1628660773555.png
 
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MithLuin

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The discussion began at 1:23:54

What he said was: "I was vaguely picturing something kind of Norse. Basically I was thinking of Icelandic longhomes that I saw during our Iceland trip. ... Thatch I could definitely live with for roofing materials. ... I'm talking about the visual effect of it - something really solid that screams out this is built to last and we're here to stay. ... I love the idea of a longhouse, though, like that. One big hall that looks Norse, but it doesn't have to look like a fancy meadhall. Something rougher. Something clearly more basic." So, while this exact example is not necessary to go with, naturally there aren't any longhomes in Iceland prior to the 800s.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
What he said was: "I was vaguely picturing something kind of Norse. Basically I was thinking of Icelandic longhomes that I saw during our Iceland trip. ... Thatch I could definitely live with for roofing materials. ... I'm talking about the visual effect of it - something really solid that screams out this is built to last and we're here to stay. ... I love the idea of a longhouse, though, like that. One big hall that looks Norse, but it doesn't have to look like a fancy meadhall. Something rougher. Something clearly more basic." So, while this exact example is not necessary to go with, naturally there aren't any longhomes in Iceland prior to the 800s.
Yeah, and a Norse house may look coarse, but it is not "something clearly more basic" in itself. To arrive in Iceland at all you had to be an excellent boat builder, which, as far I do know, the Haladin weren't at that point in time? If what is meant is a simpler roof structure on walls that are just of wood without the dirt "plaster" over it, that is doable and feasible, but the curved "reverse boat" roof is not so imho.
1629099929595.png
 
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MithLuin

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I am well aware that Norse longhouses are not Neolithic. Nevertheless, we have been set this design challenge - to come up with something that 'looks Norse' (specifically Icelandic) and yet could be something that the Haladin would have been able to build.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I am well aware that Norse longhouses are not Neolithic. Nevertheless, we have been set this design challenge - to come up with something that 'looks Norse' (specifically Icelandic) and yet could be something that the Haladin would have been able to build.
O.k. But what exaclty is this "Icelandic" you are going for? Beyond the grass on the roof?
So here some arrangements suggestions for the spot form Lost Dog confluence (i left teh stockade and some building uncloroler for greater visibility:

stockade 1.png
stockade 2b.png
I am aware the main hall is huge, but if you want to have several hundert people living there, it has to be.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, he mentioned that the structure would be built of logs, and have a solid, long-lasting look to it. One architectural detail that would immediately 'look Norse' to many people would be the crossed beams at the peak of the roof.

As an example, here is a fantasy mead hall:
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1629166518268.png

These were given a horsehead design in Peter Jackson's films in the design of Meduseld.
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So...not as fancy as a mead hall. And no planks. More log-based.


Some examples of Viking/Icelandic longhouses:
(Note the turf used to build the walls)

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This one in the Shetland islands has stone walls
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Trees are not the most common building material in Iceland, clearly. They had birch, but not much oak.

There is this movie set to represent a Viking-era hall, though, which is built of logs:

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And this site is for sale, should you be in the market for something like this....
1629168449186.png

 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Well, he mentioned that the structure would be built of logs, and have a solid, long-lasting look to it. One architectural detail that would immediately 'look Norse' to many people would be the crossed beams at the peak of the roof.

As an example, here is a fantasy mead hall:
View attachment 3899

View attachment 3900

These were given a horsehead design in Peter Jackson's films in the design of Meduseld.
View attachment 3901

So...not as fancy as a mead hall. And no planks. More log-based.


Some examples of Viking/Icelandic longhouses:
(Note the turf used to build the walls)

View attachment 3902
View attachment 3904

This one in the Shetland islands has stone walls
View attachment 3903

View attachment 3905

Trees are not the most common building material in Iceland, clearly. They had birch, but not much oak.

There is this movie set to represent a Viking-era hall, though, which is built of logs:

View attachment 3906



And this site is for sale, should you be in the market for something like this....
View attachment 3907

So it has to be logs - better thick ones to make it looks more subdtantial, gras on the roof, no windows and only a short roof overhang if at all. "Crossed beams" are a bit problemartic, as those are planks and purely ornamental. Maybe half-logs would work? Or some peudo-planks as far as one could get one with a stone axe and without a jack plane. I would leave out the curved roof. This is visibly too advanced and needs metal tools to process the beams to get the exact boat shape that would not break down. The biggest problem I have are the proportion. Those houses are not very long actually. To make such a big house to make it house several hundert people - and potentially the whole tribe - would not be believable. As in the last picture you added, the two houses should be actually one, if not longer. But if you change the proportion to make it really this long, it looses the Scandinavian character.
So I will leave the hall to someone with more experience in Scandinavian design. I will look into the construction of the stockade itself. Does the proposition I have posted above look right to you?
 
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