The Stockade

Odola

Active Member
While I am still leaning towards the Iceland and Colorado locations, it occurred to me that there is some pretty spectacular landscape in Chile worth checking out. Patagonia is far enough south to have the correct type of vegetation and climate for what we are looking for, I think. And the advantage here is that there are a lot of river splits, creating islands that can give the type of topography we're looking for. I want to find a spot that's not too mountainous, to get the right balance, but as long as there is a relatively stable looking plateau above, I think it might work.


Torres Del Paine National Park








Parque Nacional Yendegaia



I don't know if there is a time of year when the glacial melt makes these rivers more impressive, but if so, this would be a rather interesting spot!

Conguillio National Park

This river might be an okay stand in for the Ascar, but it's definitely no Gelion. There are larger waterways in this park, though.


There's likely something suitable in Parque Nacional Isla Magdalena, as well, but I haven't found any good photos yet.


Here is an aerial video of the confluence of the Baker and Neff Rivers in Patagonia:
The Baker River is blue, while the Neff river is grey, so it is easy to see the waters mingling nicely. What I had not considered before was that it is possible the Ascar has rapids/waterfall descending to the level of the Gelion. It would make sense.
Here is a photo taken from the vantage point of the people seen in that drone footage:
What would be important is to mirrow the scenes when filming as the the North is in the South ;-)
And avoid filming that of the vegetation and fauna (e.g. a mara) in the background which would be obviously regnisable a not Northern hemisphere. Otherwise fine.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
What would be important is to mirrow the scenes when filming as the the North is in the South ;-)
And avoid filming that of the vegetation and fauna (e.g. a mara) in the background which would be obviously regnisable a not Northern hemisphere. Otherwise fine.
Since the vegetation in Middle-Earth does not have to be an exact match of any particular area, I wouldn't be super-concerned.
 

Odola

Active Member
Since the vegetation in Middle-Earth does not have to be an exact match of any particular area, I wouldn't be super-concerned.
It is not Northern hemisphere of the Old World? Would not something too visible exotic confuse the viewer? (E. g, - like the maize fields in the LOTR movies do? There are imho few things which cry out "post-columbian" and "New World-ish" more than a maize field in a movie). But Patagonia, which very beautiful imho, is also quite exotic. So it would be easy to get something really exotic on film if not carefull.
E.g. the Chilean Firetree grows here only in planted gardens, never wild, it is clearly an "exotic" plant. https://www.shorelineareanews.com/2017/05/photos-rare-sight-chilean-fire-tree.html
Whereas the dandelions growing below it in the last picture are completely fine. (;-))
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Shire has potatoes and tobacco, both New World crops. So, the films giving them tomatoes and corn (maize) is really not any more anachronous than Tolkien's text. However, within the context of Middle-earth, the source of those crops in the Shire is doubtless Númenor, so naturally there is a difference between what you find in the Third Age in Eriador vs what you would find in First Age Beleriand. (Also, we might find a way to involve the Entwives with the early hobbits, which would explain why they have crops that others do not as well.)

At no point do I intend to include maize crops among the Haladin, nor was I planning to shoot the penguins in Patagonia as part of the Ascar-Gelion stockade. If there is a particular type of tree/vegetation that is unwanted, we could avoid it, but I don't think that all of the vegetation in (for instance) the photos I posted is inappropriate.
 

Odola

Active Member
The Shire has potatoes and tobacco, both New World crops. So, the films giving them tomatoes and corn (maize) is really not any more anachronous than Tolkien's text. However, within the context of Middle-earth, the source of those crops in the Shire is doubtless Númenor, so naturally there is a difference between what you find in the Third Age in Eriador vs what you would find in First Age Beleriand. (Also, we might find a way to involve the Entwives with the early hobbits, which would explain why they have crops that others do not as well.)

At no point do I intend to include maize crops among the Haladin, nor was I planning to shoot the penguins in Patagonia as part of the Ascar-Gelion stockade. If there is a particular type of tree/vegetation that is unwanted, we could avoid it, but I don't think that all of the vegetation in (for instance) the photos I posted is inappropriate.
Yes, I've added an example above which I think would be "too Patagonian" even if clearly very beautifull - the Chilean Firetree .
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I have been looking at photos of the Bío Bío river in Chile, but no luck yet.

It has been difficult to find the right scale for this. Many of the rivers are too small, while the Gelion should be of significant width. Many junctions are either completely flat, or else have very impressive cliffs - too impressive for what we are trying to do. 20-30' for the height of the cliff face should be the appropriate scale.

I did find one photo where the banks are scaled appropriately, at least:

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This photo is from the Zambezi river. As you can see, the rocky banks are taller than a person, but not massive unscaleable cliff faces, either. I like this size. Now, as far as white water goes...that should be restricted to the Ascar river side. I think it would be okay if the Ascar has a bit of a waterfall/whitewater drop where it meets the Gelion. The Gelion is placid in comparison, and has a shallow ford just 10-15 miles upstream.

Saddleback Brook in Colorado has appropriately scaled banks, but is a bit narrow to be called a 'river.' Maybe closer to its source the Ascar would look like this, but likely not at its junction with the Gelion.

 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Confluence of San Miguel and Dolores Rivers in Uravan, Colorado:

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I was not exactly hoping for cliffs on the west bank of the Gelion, though.

Here is the confluence of the Dolores and Colorado Rivers near Dewey Suspension Bridge.
River Junction - Colorado and Dolores .png
I cannot tell how tall that cliff is, but considering where in the world this is located, it could be 200' high. I would need a less birds-eye view photo to figure that out. Also, while there's plenty of vegetation on the river's edge, the cliffs are a bit desolate.

A more promising site is further upstream on the Colorado River, near where Coates Creek joins the river. There is an island in the river, and the way the river parts and rejoins around that island could be perfect for us.
1627188485774.png

Here is what that area of the Colorado River looks like, typically:



Moving to a different state, now.... Confluence of Blue River and Colorado River:


I was not expecting to have to travel the world so much to find this particular river confluence, but the search has been interesting!
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
It's probably cheating to use waterways that have been dammed, but if the dam is very far away and won't be on film....we can maybe get away with it.
Upper Marsh Creek, Green River confluence (above Flaming Gorge Dam in Wyoming):


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The overall elevation change seems to be about 80 feet, and the boat ramp is on the other side of the peninsula, so this might be a nice site, if I could get a good picture of it.

The Blacks Forks and Green River confluence, a little north of Upper Marsh Creek, is also a possibility.

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Image from Rock Springs, Wyoming:








Parts of the Flaming Gorge have entirely too massive cliffs, but parts are more reasonable. My hope is that by focusing on areas further north (into Wyoming), I can avoid the more 'spectacular' sections.
 
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Odola

Active Member
It's probably cheating to use waterways that have been dammed, but if the dam is very far away and won't be on film....we can maybe get away with it.
Upper Marsh Creek, Green River confluence (above Flaming Gorge Dam in Wyoming):


View attachment 3815

View attachment 3816

The overall elevation change seems to be about 80 feet, and the boat ramp is on the other side of the peninsula, so this might be a nice site, if I could get a good picture of it.

The Blacks Forks and Green River confluence, a little north of Upper Marsh Creek, is also a possibility.

View attachment 3817

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Image from Rock Springs, Wyoming:








Parts of the Flaming Gorge have entirely too massive cliffs, but parts are more reasonable. My hope is that by focusing on areas further north (into Wyoming), I can avoid the more 'spectacular' sections.
Tha same problem here in Europe, either too high or too flat and if not settled and not barren then completely overgrown.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here are some photos taken from the shore at the Lost Dog location I mentioned above:
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Still don't have a photo looking back at the Lost Dog site. Based on the topography map, it should rise up appropriately, but...haven't seen a photo yet. There is a road to the site, which is convenient, at least. Landscape does look a bit desolate, though.


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Maybe another location in Flaming Gorge would be preferable. There's Hideout Canyon (Butch Cassidy territory), or Kingfisher Island.


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Here's video of Kingfisher Island. Obviously the southern side of the island is too steep and a massive cliff, but the 'points' (southwest and north) should be much more appropriate.
 
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Odola

Active Member
Here are some photos taken from the shore at the Lost Dog location I mentioned above:
View attachment 3824




Still don't have a photo looking back at the Lost Dog site. Based on the topography map, it should rise up appropriately, but...haven't seen a photo yet. There is a road to the site, which is convenient, at least. Landscape does look a bit desolate, though.


View attachment 3825


Maybe another location in Flaming Gorge would be preferable. There's Hideout Canyon (Butch Cassidy territory), or Kingfisher Island.


View attachment 3826

View attachment 3827

Here's video of Kingfisher Island. Obviously the southern side of the island is too steep and a massive cliff, but the 'points' (southwest and north) should be much more appropriate.
The Lost Dog looks interesting.
 
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