Weapon & Armor systems; Tactical Styles in Middle Earth

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Oh, i tend to pay a lot of attention to minor characters.Hmm... no, Azog was too much the orcish version the "Angry Aryan" for my taste.I always found him corny and sometimes even unintentionally comical.But that is me.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I did not like the spike impaled in his arm. Nor did I think his design read as orcish (likely too upright, as Steve points out). I understood that they wanted a hero-orc antagonist, because Thorin, Fili, and Kili needed to die in the battle. But I did not particularly care for the design.

First Age orcs should be very well equipped, with Morgoth's war machine churning out all the supplies an army could ask for. The individual orcs aren't too thrilled about going out in sunlight, though, so there is a strong impression that they fight because they would be killed if they didn't.

We do have a a hero-orc in the character of Boldog. He is very large and strong, but also the quintessential orc, the original orc.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Hmm intriguing.

I can see some of that. Interestingly I think Azog’s original design, used during filming, reads as a lot more ‘quintessential orc’.

I’m really intrigued by the idea of ‘hero orcs’. In SilmFilm, how much agency and personal motivation do orcs get? Obviously they are bred as living weapons really, cannon fodder, but have we explored how much autonomy or personality individual orcs have if any. What I mean is, are certain orcs respected by other orcs? Do certain orcs think highly of themselves as heroes? Cos that would affect ornamentation and medals and the like, right? I find the idea of an orc going into battle with a token of an orc maiden’s affection, absolutely hilarious for some reason. Obviously that’s a hyperbolic version of it, but how do we visually separate out an orc ‘hero’?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I don't know.When they started designing orcs in the first movies they started with very realistic, practical designs.Even the Moria Goblins bizarre armor makes sense in their environment.But i particularly liked the Isengard Armor of the Uruk-Hai.But then they somehow lost track...
A lot of the Mordor Orc armor looks impractical and unrealistic to me.So does Azog.They went for overtly bizarre... but it became impractical and not very realistic.

That is not how i imagine orcs.I very much think they go for functionality over beauty.Azog... he is kinda a weird Art-lover who collects futurist and constructivist statues and sculptures in his hipster BDSM-cave and told his smith to totally go for the orcish bling and design him some weapons and armor that look artsy and fit the taste of his very special fetish-subculture.The entire movie-character reminds me most of Immortan Joe in Mad Max Fury road.That was one stupid, silly-looking villain.

But Bolg was worse.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I definitely like Boldog, and i support to have the other Hero-Orc characters, Gorgol, Lug, Balcmeg, Othrod and Orcobal (love the name!) Too.

I also think of them as great Generals and chieftains who could be played by actors with a bodybuilder physique. But i don't like the idea of putting them into loincloths and impractical, bizarre-looking scale-armor.

I definitely think of realistic scale and splint armor, later dense mail, Hauberk, chainleggings, coif , the full mesh.I also vote for realistical broad-rimmed, beak-nasaled helmets.faceMasks make some sense if they have to fight in the sunlight, which they hate but yet still do.

I think they could have some orcish bling, they certainly would show off jewelry, armbands, talismans possibly... i guess they would go for the ugly grinning grotesque-face artstyle. I could also imagine them wearing exquisite leather clothes and pelts, even with rich embroidery , but in all orcish design.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I think worn tanned skins and grim trophies would be a likelihood.

we definitely want to make sure any hero characters, orcs included, have identifiable silhouettes and clearly distinguishable armour or token clothing features, especially those within the same cultures and armies. Could be easy for orcs to blur together
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I’d imagined the rank-and-file Orcs to have a more cobbled-together look, while the higher-ranked Orcs would have higher-quality gear.

If we decide to make more than one Hero-Orc, do they all have to be big and bulky like Boldog?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I think Boldog should stand out.He is a demon.The other captains can be a bit smaller and certainly less imposing, but still more "finished" than the rank'n'file Orcs.They can still have each his own disti guished look and style.

The lesser Orcs... well i once proposed we had a kind of war-slave type, that is poorly equipped and driven into battle as cannonfodder and a professional soldier-type , that is well equipped and trained and gives our Noldor a respectable opponent. I imagine these like hoplites, or roman legionaires or celtic warrior-elite. You know... scale or mail armor, helmet, iron shed boots, large roundshield, broad bladed spear and scimitar/bent sword/long knife sidearm.

The war-slaves not that much, i guess they could be dressed in skins, wield spears maybe, long knifes.. if the soldiers are more like legionaires then the War-slaves could be more like Peltasts , Psiloi or Velites maybe.Or like Gaesatae... less like disciplined warriors, more like wild animals or Berzerks perhaps.They are effective in their own way, but most ,likely to die.And they have their whip-masters at their toes. The Elves in the silmarillion kill an awful number of Orcs, i'd like to have this type to explain the orcs losses in some rational way while not loosing the Orc as a respectable and feasome enemy in total by having them look stupid.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
Really like that idea. And have clearly defined roles means you can have specific orcs who stand apart at a quick visual glance
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Another thing i had argued is that the angband crew will very soon be thinning out as we loose many of our main characters and we still might need people Morgoth talks to, so some orc replacements could be an idea..
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Gorgol? I imagine him taking on a role as a minor lieutenant of Sauron. Setting him up as an antagonist this season gives him a little more hefty when he goes after Barahir and his Outlaws
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Gorgol? I imagine him taking on a role as a minor lieutenant of Sauron. Setting him up as an antagonist this season gives him a little more hefty when he goes after Barahir and his Outlaws
The Hosts weren’t interested in any new villain characters this season apparently, though I did make a casting concept thread on him.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah, i am also divided.If we don't have much happening in angband and shifting all the plot to humans, then we also don't need any dialogue for Angband characters, that includes Hero-Orcs.But we can still imagine to have them as outstanding extras i think.Yo just don't need to cast them.

On the other hand i totally want them in Dorthonion and Gondolin.Beren killing Gorgol, slayer of his father is an important plot element in my opinion.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Part of the issue is that the Angband storyline is very light in this quite full season...and the other part of the issue is that Sauron doesn't currently command orcs (who are under Gothmog's command), so orcs answering to Sauron will be a Season 6 development. In Season 5, Sauron has his usual crew - Tevildo and his cats, Draugluin and his wolves, Thuringwethil and her bats.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I suppose it could be confusing to change command of a background character. May as well save that for when he’s a key player
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Part of the issue is that the Angband storyline is very light in this quite full season...and the other part of the issue is that Sauron doesn't currently command orcs (who are under Gothmog's command), so orcs answering to Sauron will be a Season 6 development. In Season 5, Sauron has his usual crew - Tevildo and his cats, Draugluin and his wolves, Thuringwethil and her bats.
Who's assisting Sauron in the whole Amlach business?
 
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