Weapon & Armor systems; Tactical Styles in Middle Earth

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Why not? Anything they didn't carry, they had to leave behind in Nargothrond. Not one Elf came with to help them carry their things.

Because nobody travels in full military gear unless they are on their way to war. Even if the roads can be dangerous.

Right, I agree with you here. The warhammer and mace aren't what I picture though -- rather spears, halberds, and poleaxes.

The curved sword, like full plate harness, appears to be something Tolkien avoided giving to Elves, and I would avoid it too. In fact I think that Elves and Orcs, hating each other, will want to avoid looking alike and will seek to differentiate their armor and weapons from their enemies (within the limits of practical need). And even Noldor probably cannot afford to cover every last soldier in silver and jewels.

Also... I get what you say about evolving military technology. But when Feanor has forged "fell swords for himself and his seven sons" it seems a little odd for masterpieces of metalwork to be discarded 100 years later. Even Curufin would struggle to make their equal.

To dovetail with what Marielle said about Morgoth focusing on quantity over quality, I don't necessarily think that all Orkish foot-soldiers had great armor or full coverage of their extremities. So while they may need chopping weapons and maces and warhammers to damage Elves and Humans and Dwarves through their armor, Elves can use their devastatingly sharp swords (in some cases even cutting poor-quality iron?) on exposed body parts -- and their skill and precision is such that they can target eve tiny chinks in armor. Thus, long sharp swords, and sharp pointy spears.

Getting through troll-hide is a different story -- I don't know what the optimal weapon would be for that. Trollskin is effectively scale armor.

My recommendation for the khopesh is set in a time before the orcs are known, and before the elves have any idea what they are up against, so avoidance of an orcish style wouldn't be applicable here. Also, since we know that the orcs do use straight swords and the elves do not necessarily avoid this, I don't think this is necessarily a valid reason to avoid it. What we can say is that curved blades, as they are not optimized for thrusting, would be less effective against armor, and would likely be avoided, once the elves have a basic understanding of combat.

As to Feanor's weapons, they may be well-forged, but they were made in a state of ignorance. Brilliant Feanor may be as a craftsman, but he has no idea what is going to be needed in actual combat. I think we can extrapolate that swords would grow longer and their points more acute as time went on.

The elves' blades do occasionally cut through iron, but we have to be aware of the fact that this is not a measure of sharpness, but of hardness, strength, and weight. We also cannot necessarily assume that Melkor would continuously ignore evidence that his orcs were underequipped. For example, they were well-equipped enough to demolish the Sindar before Thingol procures sufficient arms and armor. Well-crafted stone weapons can cut exposed body parts just as easily as steel, just ask the British who landed on New Zealand. I think that we can assume that the orcs are at least covering their bodies, arms and necks, using shields, and so on.

As to troll-hide, the best they are going to get are thrusting weapons, axes, and maces. A warhammer's spike would likely puncture a troll's skull just as easily as it would a thick steel helmet. Not to mention, the elves are capable of putting basic enchantments on weapons, and it is likely that they could manage to put troll-bane enchantments on weapons if needed.

 

[Faelivrin]

Because nobody travels in full military gear unless they are on their way to war. Even if the roads can be dangerous.

Then they're carrying it to Aglond, which is the same weight for the horse. They wouldn't just leave it behind for Orodreth.

My recommendation for the khopesh is set in a time before the orcs are known, and before the elves have any idea what they are up against, so avoidance of an orcish style wouldn't be applicable here. Also, since we know that the orcs do use straight swords and the elves do not necessarily avoid this, I don't think this is necessarily a valid reason to avoid it. What we can say is that curved blades, as they are not optimized for thrusting, would be less effective against armor, and would likely be avoided, once the elves have a basic understanding of combat.

Perhaps. They did have whatever examples the Valar had forged for the Great March, and Melkor's tutelage.

This is actually a really good reason for the Sindar to prefer axes. It's a more normal weapon for a non-militarized society to start with.

What farming implement is a Khopesh based on? Not a sickle, the cutting blade is on the opposite edge.

Not to mention, the elves are capable of putting basic enchantments on weapons, and it is likely that they could manage to put troll-bane enchantments on weapons if needed.

Right. This, I think, is a way in which both Elves and Dwarves may innovate on mail and swords without always altering the shape. They can make the metal "better" in some way that Humans can't fathom. This is what makes the Dragon-Helm (and perhaps Angrist?) so excellent.

Also there's mithril. It may be available only from Khazad-Dum (I don't know if it was ever inserted into the First Age) but with Dwarf-Elf trade there's potentially a miniscule supply of it, for the occasional uniquely amazing weapon or armor.

We also cannot necessarily assume that Melkor would continuously ignore evidence that his orcs were underequipped.

To an extent, yes this is right. Their equipment won't be nearly as crappy as that of early Third Age mountain Goblins -- it'll be clear that they're supplied by an imperial power, one that may eventually come close to mass-production, if not necessarily as 'industrial' as Sauron's reign. But when your troops are cannon fodder, you have less incentive to care about each individual's equiment. This happens in real life, with humans who can process rational thought and don't have a genocidal hatred for their own troops. Morgoth -- I don't think he's thinking about details like this. Now, Sauron or Boldog or a lower captain may try to address this on their own initiative, but only to the extent it's both necessary and sufficient to secure victories against Elves. The survival of any one Orc means nothing to them, either.

What I imagine is that their hauberks and sleaves and so forth will get longer and better as centuries pass, like Elves' armor. But that there'll be some % of Orcs in the army who haven't gotten enough equipment, for whatever reason. Or don't take care of it. Or were robbed by another Orc whose armor was damaged or who didn't take care of it. They probably rob each other all the time, of anything they can get.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What farming implement is a Khopesh based on? Not a sickle, the cutting blade is on the opposite edge.

Actually, when forging a sickle, you hammer out a blade the same way you would a khopesh, then you grind down the inside. However, the khopesh is closer to an axe in its origin, at least that's what archeologists seem to think.

To an extent, yes this is right. Their equipment won't be nearly as crappy as those of early Third Age mountain Goblins -- it'll be clear that they're supplied by an imperial power, one that may eventually comes close to mass-production, if not necessarily as 'industrial' as Sauron's reign. But when your troops are cannon fodder, you have less incentive to care about each individual's equiment. This happens in real life, with humans who can process rational thought and don't have a genocidal hatred for their own troops. Morgoth -- I don't think he's thinking about details like this. Now, Sauron or Boldog or a lower captain may try to address this on their own initiative, but only to the extent it's both necessary and sufficient to secure victories against Elves. The survival of any one Orc means nothing to them, either.

What I imagine is that their hauberks and sleaves and so forth will get longer and better as centuries pass, like Elves' armor. But that there'll be some % of Orcs in the army who haven't gotten enough equipment, for whatever reason. Or don't take care of it. Or were robbed by another Orc whose armor was damaged or who didn't take care of it. They probably rob each other all the time, of anything they can get.

This is true, but the primary arms race for Melkor is in his creatures. He realizes very quickly that the orcs are no match for the elves, not because they are underequipped (they are well-equipped enough to be devastating to the Sindar), but because the elves are personally superior. I don't think it is necessary to underequip the orcs just so that we can match up with the romantic idea of the elves primarily using swords. The elves will be overpowered enough as it is. We will have plenty of examples of elvish swordsmanship, but I would like armor to actually be a thing in our adaptation, since Hollywood rarely portrays it as doing anything, unless it is worn by someone who needs to survive.

 

[Faelivrin]

Actually, when forging a sickle, you hammer out a blade the same way you would a khopesh, then you grind down the inside. However, the khopesh is closer to an axe in its origin, at least that's what archeologists seem to think.

The khopesh reminds me somewhat of a machete or falchion - it's a similar sort of chopping tool repurposed into a weapon -- though perhaps not similar in construction. And I didn't know that about the forging process -- that definitely does create a "beating plowshares into swords" vibe.

But unfortunately, I think the khopesh has a major disadvantage, one the Noldor would not overlook. As far as I know, it's too curved to sheathe. That means Feanor can't draw his sword "in a flash" to menace Fingolfin. And it won't stay sharp if it can't be sheathed, and even a chopping sword ought to have an edge if possible. I suspect the Egyptians didn't think of that at first because they were a bronze age culture and their everyday implements were stone, not metal. But the Noldor have probably already reached the absolute height of pre-industrial metallurgy, and are familiar with the idea that you keep your hunting and eating knives sheathed to keep them sharp. They may make a few khopeshes experimentally, but they'll realize this downside before they have equipped an army with them, certainly before they actually fight. Essentially, I think the khopesh in specific is another martial technology that Noldor will skip bcause they're already well past the bronze age. (Even if there's no need to sheathe chopping swords, Feanor still has his sword in a sheath.)

The thing about machetes and falchions is that they aren't just made from tools, they are designed to remain useful as tools. I'm concerned they maybe aren't militarized enough for the Noldor. Or maybe that's a distinction between the swords Feanorians make -- things with no possible nonviolent uses -- and the early blades made by the other Noldor.

Is there a type of chopping sword that can be sheathed? I'd be far more inclined to accept the Noldor starting (briefly) with something short and/or curvy if it can be sheathed. And hopefully can be made to look elegant. I figure a straight or only slightly curved short-sword ought to be sheath-able.

About Feanor's ignorance, you are right. He might have known more if he had (knowingly) taken Melkor's advice, but he never purposely listened to Melkor.

EDIT: After thinking about it more, I've realized there may be another problem with the first swords being short swords and the technology progressing along over time: the persistent desirability of some swords that were forged very early. It's true that we don't know if Turgon's Glamdring (which is short enough for Thorin) or Thingol's Aranruth (which was wielded to great effect by Dior) were forged much before the Fifth Battle. But Eol forged Anguirel and Anglachel right when Melian created her Girdle, and hundreds of years later they were still good enough for Eol, Beleg, and Maeglin to prefer them over other swords. It's true that being made of magical metal that has whatever properties the author wants is a huge plus, but I don't think they could have been short-swords. When the Noldor reforged Anglachel, there was enough metal there to make the sword fairly long (unless they experimented with adding another metal as alloy, but that seems risky to me). Otherwise, if a short sword were sufficiently long to kill Glaurung, Azaghal likely would have done it. Telchar can surely make a sword as sharp and enchanted and dreadful as Eol or Celebrimbor or whoever. (I think Celebrimbor reforged Anglachel, or helped, because how could he pass up a chance to play with galvorn?)

So arming swords (or something of similar length) probably have to exist from very early, even if they aren't common until later.

This is true, but the primary arms race for Melkor is in his creatures. He realizes very quickly that the orcs are no match for the elves, not because they are underequipped (they are well-equipped enough to be devastating to the Sindar), but because the elves are personally superior. I don't think it is necessary to underequip the orcs just so that we can match up with the romantic idea of the elves primarily using swords. The elves will be overpowered enough as it is. We will have plenty of examples of elvish swordsmanship, but I would like armor to actually be a thing in our adaptation, since Hollywood rarely portrays it as doing anything, unless it is worn by someone who needs to survive.

LOL I watched Metatron's "armor doesn't exist RANT" video about movies where armor is demolished like cheap cloth. His channel is very entertaining.

If you think that it can be entirely plausible for Elves to continue using swords at least as sidearms -- but not estocs? -- against fully-armored opponents, I believe you.

 

[Haerangil]

It's coming always and again to a point in silm film discussion where it's becoming realism& historical examples vs textual orthodoxy.

There's always a second world influence within tolkien's work which is more fantastical or myth based than rational or technically plausible.

To some degree we can rationalise it by just saying, well the elves are superhumans plus teached by the valar. They just have different abilities and different logic from us today...

So their smithing skills and attitude towards armour, weapons and technology in general might be diffierent from ours and hardly to imagine - if we want to go this way.

Thus in this place i would prefer making bent or curved blades uncommon among elves ( that duilin guy from gondolin is quoted as the only noldo to wield a curved blade and only as secondary wespon) and making long swords - mix of arming sword and estoc? - a standard weapon. Feanor is quoted to have born a mighty sword. So i imagine it was quite large and impressive...

 

[Faelivrin]

But let's not sacrifice textual accuracy until it's truly necessary, please.

Short, straight stabbing swords also date back to the bronze age. But one of the reasons for making a sword short is not having the metallurgy to craft a longer sword that won't bend or break. Again, the Noldor and Dwarves and Eol all have very advanced metallurgy. Nicholas still has a valid point, though, that they first have to think of making the swords longer and pointier. Once it does occur to them, though, they can make them as long as is practical.

 

[Haerangil]

Personally i see myself more on the side of textual orthodoxy rather rhan the side of more realism. But i of course can see the point of wanting things look realistic - and maybe correct some of jrrts weaker points here and there!

Wouldn't the first noldo weapons have been imitations of old vala& maia relics? Things left from the wars of powers? If so these were made for valar & maiar and their very distinct physique and needs and the elves would yet still need to adapt them to their own needs and physique.

So if this was the case... What kind of weapons & armour might the ainur have developed and used? What did it look like? How did it work? What was the ainurs tactical warfare against each ther? I suppose it might have bern drastically different from elvish or human warfare... Yet we know they did have examples of armour and weaponry.

 

[Faelivrin]

Goodness, I have no idea what weapons Ainur would use. They have no need to fight in humanoid form, and maybe don't even need to be clad at all. There are scattered references to them having weapons, but I have clue what to make of them!

The Valar did provide the Elves weapons to defend themselves at Kuivienen and on the Great March, and they might have had hunting weapons before (though that isn't clear -- I suspect they didn't hunt). The Valar would have attempted to create weapons easily wielded by Elf-shaped creatures... with or without success, given their lack of experience. The Eldar may have improved the more awkward designs a little, at least once hunting became part of their culture.

So the Elves' and Dwarves' models may have been a mixture of sophisticated Valarin designs, clunky or obsolete or weird Valarin designs, hunting weapons (they do hunt in Beleriand and Valinor), farm tools, and (at least in Beleriand) the natural weaponry of animals. Along with Melkor's suggestions (in Valinor).

 

[Haerangil]

I guess tools and hunting would be the base from which weapons were created. Another option for ainu weapons are - they are shapeshifters and craftsmen.

The armour they wear is not necessarily for protection but for beauty... Protection is maybe secondary at best.

They do not wear shields certainly...

They do not fight in military formations, they fight very individual.

They do not fight in narrow rooms but in the free field, in the open land.

So long blades? Beautiful and elaborate designs. Two bladed cut& thrust weapons?

Throwing spears, short & sharp?

Elves and dwarves then would make their adaptions more practical..

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The khopesh reminds me somewhat of a machete or falchion - it's a similar sort of chopping tool repurposed into a weapon -- though perhaps not similar in construction. And I didn't know that about the forging process -- that definitely does create a "beating plowshares into swords" vibe.

But unfortunately, I think the khopesh has a major disadvantage, one the Noldor would not overlook. As far as I know, it's too curved to sheathe. That means Feanor can't draw his sword "in a flash" to menace Fingolfin. And it won't stay sharp if it can't be sheathed, and even a chopping sword ought to have an edge if possible. I suspect the Egyptians didn't think of that at first because they were a bronze age culture and their everyday implements were stone, not metal. But the Noldor have probably already reached the absolute height of pre-industrial metallurgy, and are familiar with the idea that you keep your hunting and eating knives sheathed to keep them sharp. They may make a few khopeshes experimentally, but they'll realize this downside before they have equipped an army with them, certainly before they actually fight. Essentially, I think the khopesh in specific is another martial technology that Noldor will skip bcause they're already well past the bronze age. (Even if there's no need to sheathe chopping swords, Feanor still has his sword in a sheath.)

So, firstly, you certainly can scabbard a khopesh.

But more importantly, I had only conceived it for the first swords made, which in the adaptation, are invented by Fingolfin under Melkor's guidance. Feanor's sword will be straight.

The thing about machetes and falchions is that they aren't just made from tools, they are designed to remain useful as tools. I'm concerned they maybe aren't militarized enough for the Noldor. Or maybe that's a distinction between the swords Feanorians make -- things with no possible nonviolent uses -- and the early blades made by the other Noldor.

Is there a type of chopping sword that can be sheathed? I'd be far more inclined to accept the Noldor starting (briefly) with something short and/or curvy if it can be sheathed. And hopefully can be made to look elegant. I figure a straight or only slightly curved short-sword ought to be sheath-able.

So, the falchion isn't really designed to work as a tool. It is a very thin blade, that seems to have been designed for the butchering of unarmored peasants. As to chopping swords that can be sheathed, I would say pretty much all of them.

EDIT: After thinking about it more, I've realized there may be another problem with the first swords being short swords and the technology progressing along over time: the persistent desirability of some swords that were forged very early. It's true that we don't know if Turgon's Glamdring (which is short enough for Thorin) or Thingol's Aranruth (which was wielded to great effect by Dior) were forged much before the Fifth Battle. But Eol forged Anguirel and Anglachel right when Melian created her Girdle, and hundreds of years later they were still good enough for Eol, Beleg, and Maeglin to prefer them over other swords. It's true that being made of magical metal that has whatever properties the author wants is a huge plus, but I don't think they could have been short-swords. When the Noldor reforged Anglachel, there was enough metal there to make the sword fairly long (unless they experimented with adding another metal as alloy, but that seems risky to me). Otherwise, if a short sword were sufficiently long to kill Glaurung, Azaghal likely would have done it. Telchar can surely make a sword as sharp and enchanted and dreadful as Eol or Celebrimbor or whoever. (I think Celebrimbor reforged Anglachel, or helped, because how could he pass up a chance to play with galvorn?)

Let's not forget that Eol forged Anglachel after being tutored by the dwarves, who did have practical battle experience due to infighting. And it was made for beings who were taller, and thus could be longer than swords the dwarves would make for themselves. Glamdring was likely forged at the height of the elves' martial prowess, and thus would be quite different from swords made during peacetime by a people who have never known war.

Personally i see myself more on the side of textual orthodoxy rather rhan the side of more realism. But i of course can see the point of wanting things look realistic - and maybe correct some of jrrts weaker points here and there!

Wouldn't the first noldo weapons have been imitations of old vala& maia relics? Things left from the wars of powers? If so these were made for valar & maiar and their very distinct physique and needs and the elves would yet still need to adapt them to their own needs and physique.

So if this was the case... What kind of weapons & armour might the ainur have developed and used? What did it look like? How did it work? What was the ainurs tactical warfare against each ther? I suppose it might have bern drastically different from elvish or human warfare... Yet we know they did have examples of armour and weaponry.

I think that there was a consensus that the Ainur did not use physical, manufactured weapons in the War of the Powers. They are also not limited to physical forms. For example, it would not be shocking for one of the Maiar to use one of these:

This would be completely impractical for the elves to use. I don't think that the elves would be able to get much practical use out of designs meant to be wielded by supernatural creatures.

 

[Haerangil]

Well so no armed valar for this adaption at all? I mean.. Would not orome and his hunters have hunting knives, spears and bows? Will eonwe not have some sort of blade or weapon? At last staves for ulmo and other lords?
Ulmo does - canonically - wear a foam crested helmet snd some sort of fish- mail

Of course rationalised, duilin's blade could be an older, obsolete design...

But i don't reslly understand how melkor would teach the noldor to forge kopesh blades...

I mean, would not then the very first noldo blades be more or less enlarged versions of hunting knives? Or perhaps agricultural or woodcrafting working blades?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Well so no armed valar for this adaption at all? I mean.. Would not orome and his hunters have hunting knives, spears and bows? Will eonwe not have some sort of blade or weapon? At last staves for ulmo and other lords?
Ulmo does - canonically - wear a foam crested helmet snd some sort of fish- mail

Of course rationalised, duilin's blade could be an older, obsolete design...

But i don't reslly understand how melkor would teach the noldor to forge kopesh blades...

I mean, would not then the very first noldo blades be more or less enlarged versions of hunting knives? Or perhaps agricultural or woodcrafting working blades?

They are armed, but the arms are not manufactured. They have no need to make things of materials that are not as strong as their own forms.

As to how Melkor would teach the Noldor to forge a blade that is basically the same as a sickle without an edge ground on the inside? I'm not following why this is difficult.

 

[Faelivrin]

Well you've answered the questions and concerns I had about swords.

So, firstly, you certainly can scabbard a khopesh.
But more importantly, I had only conceived it for the first swords made, which in the adaptation, are invented by Fingolfin under Melkor's guidance. Feanor's sword will be straight

Now that makes sense. So the sword Fingolfin breaks after the Kinslaying was a khopesh.

So, the falchion isn't really designed to work as a tool.

Ah, well then it's another poss-

It is a very thin blade, that seems to have been designed for the butchering of unarmored peasants.

-ehhhhh. Well not that design, then!

So the Sindar (or at least Eol) start out with better swords owing to Dwarven teaching, but most prefer axes. The Noldor start with some curvy and some straight swords. How soon do you imagine the Noldor start making longer swords?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Well you've answered the questions and concerns I had about swords.


Now that makes perfect sense. So the sword Fingolfin breaks after the Kinslaying was a khopesh.

Ah, well then it's another poss-
-ehhhhh. Well not that design, then!

So the Sindar (or at least Eol) start out with better swords owing to Dwarven teaching, but most prefer axes. The Noldor start with some curvy and some straight swords. How soon do you imagine the Noldor start making longer swords?

I would say pretty much right after the Fingolfin becomes king. Their first experience with combat is with the unarmored Teleri, for which their first weapons seem more than adequate. I would say that the shift should take place after their first encounters with the orcs. So Ringil would be forged after this. I don't think it will take the elves long to reach the pinnacle of their military technology, because, well ... elves.

 

[Haerangil]

The sickle is an agricultural tool... Does this fit to melkor and noldo culture?

It does fit to ancient egypt, but egypt was a farming culture.

Would the transition from kopesh blades to more straight blades come believable?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The sickle is an agricultural tool... Does this fit to melkor and noldo culture?

It does fit to ancient egypt, but egypt was a farming culture.

Would the transition from kopesh blades to more straight blades come believable?

Well, considering the fact that the Noldor do eat, I think we can assume that they do grow a certain amount of grain, and would therefore be familiar with the forging of sickles. In addition, the khopesh more is more directly a descendant of the crescent axe, which I do think is a good fit for the Noldor.

As to the transition to straight blades, I think it would be. Straight swords were used contemporaneously with the khopesh, and in addition, Fëanor is making his straight swords independently of the rest of the Noldor. The other Noldor would quickly notice that the straighter Fëanorean designs were more effective against the armored orcs, and follow suit.

 

[Faelivrin]

Well, considering the fact that the Noldor do eat, I think we can assume that they do grow a certain amount of grain, and would therefore be familiar with the forging of pickles.

I don't know about forging pickles, though the Noldor may have started pickling vegetables in Middle-earth once they discovered food had to be preserved against decay and mold. Possibly they had acquired a taste for pickles during the Great March and had continued eating them even in Aman.

In any case, they grew the Corn of Yavanna (actually wheat) so they certainly had farms. The Lay of the Children of Hurin describes the farmsteads of Nargothrond.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I don't know about forging pickles, though the Noldor may have started pickling vegetables in Middle-earth once they discovered food had to be preserved against decay and mold.

Anyway, they grew the Corn of Yavanna (actually wheat) so they certainly had farms. The Lay of the Children of Hurin describes the farmsteads of Nargothrond.

Hehe. Fixed.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What type of weapon should Sauron carry? A sword? Probably not an axe or a hammer, since Gothmog already carries an axe and Morgoth uses a hammer.

Or should he not carry weapons at all?

 

[Haerangil]

Wasnt there something about a rod of sorcery? I vaguely remember such a thing... but might be from lost tales orbhistory ofbthevsil... nut the pubsil.