Werewolves

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Just listening to the latest silmfilm podcast...

I think i already had pointed out Gmork, and the team seems to love him too.

I also showed the giant wolf from rampage i think:

Fenris has some nice scenes with Hulk...

There also was a giant Lykan in Underworld, a giant wolf in 300 and Fenrir in Assassins creed which i find underwgelming, so i won't post them..

But Nago in Princess Mononoke, not a wolf, but a boar, i think deserves some attention:

Also, do you know the movie brotherhood of the wolf? Sadly i coukdn't find a good scene but i remember the mysterious "werewolf" beast in that movie was really frightening!


Now for corys justified fear that The Silmaril-filled mad Draugluin will not come about believable as a threat similar to Balrogs or Glaurung...
What if the Silmaril indeed does somehow warp Draugluin and we have a half-burning, possibly fire and poison breathing giant werewolf rampaging around like Nago... a possibility or not?
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
I definitely think smoking might be the way to go. Not on fire but oddly smoking, unexplainable. As if not even fire truly touches him. Perhaps leaving ashy footprints in his wake?

If anyone has read Neverwhere, the description of the Beast of London being covered in blades and spears and weapons that never killed him I find very evocative.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Just listening to the latest silmfilm podcast...

I think i already had pointed out Gmork, and the team seems to love him too.

I also showed the giant wolf from rampage i think:

Fenris has some nice scenes with Hulk...

There also was a giant Lykan in Underworld, a giant wolf in 300 and Fenrir in Assassins creed which i find underwgelming, so i won't post them..

But Nago in Princess Mononoke, not a wolf, but a boar, i think deserves some attention:

Also, do you know the movie brotherhood of the wolf? Sadly i coukdn't find a good scene but i remember the mysterious "werewolf" beast in that movie was really frightening!


Now for corys justified fear that The Silmaril-filled mad Draugluin will not come about believable as a threat similar to Balrogs or Glaurung...
What if the Silmaril indeed does somehow warp Draugluin and we have a half-burning, possibly fire and poison breathing giant werewolf rampaging around like Nago... a possibility or not?
Do you mean Carcharoth? Draugluin is already dead by the time Beren and Lúthien reach Angband...

unless Draugluin and Carcharoth are being combined.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Yeah, i still mix up names on and off. I have a notoriously bad memory due to a nervous condition.
Thanks for the honesty. No shade intended.

Remembering my suggestion that Sauron’s wolf form be smoky and wispy to differentiate it as not a true werewolf, I feel Carcharoth needs something of his own, his own look.

Some of my favourite wolf designs in media are possibly some of peoples’ least favourites lol. I like Remus Lupin in Prisoner of Azkabhan and Jackson's LotR wargs because they stand out from the crowd. They aren't just 'a wolf but big'. They have a memorable style. Love them or loathe them, they feel intentional.

For Carcharoth - this guys is a superweapon. To me, he doesn't feel like he lithe, one-on-one combatant that Sauron assumes the form of. When I think of Sauron and Huan, I picture a mongoose and cobra fight, all twists and turns. Carcharoth is Morgoth's tank to me. He ploughs through ranks. He should, to me, look like a survivor. This thing honed and perfected and twisted into the ultimate brute. He is a BEAST. Heat rises off his sweating flanks. I love Nago as a comparison. Carcharoth isn't lithe. He's a boar. He's a bear. He's a bull. A predatory mountain. It should seem INSANE that anyone would go up against him.

To me, he should also look broken. He's been through the ringer. As soon as I stopped to think about it, the first images that came into my head was one of a hedgehog without spine. The skin is cracked underneath and isn't nice. Or bears without fur. It's clear what animal it is, but something is way off. It's just unnatural. I think Carcharoth's very flesh should feel evil. I'm not saying saggy wrinkly folds, but he should feel tough and cracked.

For reference, here are some images I think of in terms of shape. Just this muscle bound mass, head down charging into foes. I don't think we should go with Thor: Rangarok and just do 'big wolf' - let's make him stand out. The hulk of wolves.

I also imagine that after he consumes the silmaril, he is burning from within. His already cracked skin, slitting as light seems through the splits like white magma. A star trapped in a stone Fagerge Egg.

I'm not necessarily thinking not exactly a fantasy archetype nor a 'zombie wolf', not rotten but naturally deformed through burns or a skin condition and abuse. Less 'big bad wolf', more 'this wolf has been treated awfully, it's been messed up, it's battled and been scarred, BUT has made it through and hates the world. Also, its the biggest mammalian predator you've ever seen'. A feeling of a natural animal pushed to extremes.
A true hell hound.

SKIN MOOD BOARD
278353798_4763621267100498_3415122063838708918_n.jpg 272147128_920204158681238_378100351711139189_n.jpg 278760712_661609594910798_8591862045044883508_n.jpg278655981_670513494050873_50632625010307299_n.jpg

SCALE MOOD BOARD
279225457_777612379807127_6609619737690438967_n.jpg 278906099_722083639236446_1360143731366933473_n.jpg 278612876_5154848511241722_6969003409225080941_n.jpg

FACE
ab720fdd8dfa064fa439fe48e4174d88.png
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Th for the honest. No shade intended.

Remembering my suggestion that Sauron’s wolf form be smoky and wispy to differentiate it as not a true werewolf, I feel Carcharoth needs something of his own, his own look.

Some of my favourite wolf designs in media are possibly some of peoples’ least favourites lol. I like Remus Lupin in Prisoner of Azkabhan and Jackson's LotR wargs because they stand out from the crowd. They aren't just 'a wolf but big'. They have a memorable style. Love them or loathe them, they feel intentional.

For Carcharoth - this guys is a superweapon. To me, he doesn't feel like he lithe, one-on-one combatant that Sauron assumes the form of. When I think of Sauron and Huan, I picture a mongoose and cobra fight, all twists and turns. Carcharoth is Morgoth's tank to me. He ploughs through ranks. He should, to me, look like a survivor. This thing honed and perfected and twisted into the ultimate brute. He is a BEAST. Heat rises off his sweating flanks. I love Nago as a comparison. Carcharoth isn't lithe. He's a boar. He's a bear. He's a bull. A predatory mountain. It should seem INSANE that anyone would go up against him.

To me, he should also look broken. He's been through the ringer. As soon as I stopped to think about it, the first images that came into my head was one of a hedgehog without spine. The skin is cracked underneath and isn't nice. Or bears without fur. It's clear what animal it is, but something is way off. It's just unnatural. I think Carcharoth's very flesh should feel evil. I'm not saying saggy wrinkly folds, but he should feel tough and cracked.

For reference, here are some images I think of in terms of shape. Just this muscle bound mass, head down charging into foes (the black wolf is more for posture - I don't think we should go with Thor: Rangarok and just do 'big wolf' - let's make him stand out.) The hulk of wolves.

I also imagine that after he consumes the silmaril, he is burning from within. His already cracked skin, slitting as light seems through the splits like white magma. A star trapped in a stone Fagerge Egg.

I'm not necessarily thinking not exactly a fantasy archetype nor a 'zombie wolf', not rotten but naturally deformed through burns or a skin condition and abuse. Less 'big bad wolf', more 'this wolf has been treated awfully, it's been messed up, it's battled and been scarred, BUT has made it through and hates the world. Also, its the biggest mammalian predator you've ever seen'. A feeling of a natural animal pushed to extremes.
A true hell hound.

SKIN MOOD BOARD
View attachment 4154 View attachment 4155 View attachment 4158View attachment 4159

SCALE MOOD BOARD
View attachment 4156 View attachment 4157 View attachment 4153

FACE
View attachment 4160
Which ones from Peter Jackson? The wargs in the Lord of the Rings look different from the ones in The Hobbit.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So, some things - we have discussed werewolf design previously, and the emphasis is to be on wolf, not a man-turning-into-a-wolf. So, no bipedal werewolf designs, etc.

Fenris from Thor: Ragnarok is definitely an example of a giant wolf on screen...and Fenris looks more or less ridiculous when compared to human actors. The choice to have the Hulk fight Fenris was a solid one, but that reduces the wolf's size to reasonable proportions by comparison.

So...I am fine with Carcaroth being as much bigger than Beren as Fenris is compared to the Hulk...not Fenris compared to Hela.

Okay:
1651276135069.jpeg

Not okay:


And yes, the Gmork came up in that original discussion and again in the most recent podcast - in both occurrences, Corey Olsen mentioned that this was exactly his idea of what werewolves in the Silmarillion would look like.

So, here is the Gmork from the Neverending Story:


Naturally, the 1980s puppetry/animatronics looks like it was made in the 1980s.
So, if you are forgiving of whatever is going on with the nose, this is a terrifying evil wolf design.
Though, from my own childhood memories of this movie, the image that haunted me was the wolf's head that falls on Bastian when the storm hits the attic.

Peter Jackson's wargs in the Lord of the Rings films definitely didn't look like wolves! They looked more like...hyenas? I guess?



Andrewsarchus would definitely address the pug-nosed aspect of that design!
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I disliked these Isengard Wargs, i always thought they lack the elegance of Wolves, same withnthe Andrewsuchus... it looks clumsy imho.

The dire wolf, canis dirus i like, most skin mood board pics i dislike, they remind me far too much of rats.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
What I mean is that the Wargs in The Lord of the Rings look different than the ones shown in The Hobbit.
That’s why I said LotR lol I preferred those wargs because they felt like real creatures. They had a sort of natural ugliness. To me the Hobbit wargs, head shape and jaws mainly, just felt like a fantasy beast. They felt…designed? Less organic.

The Fenris design is fine for a big wolf as it’s just a big wolf, but it’s so uninspired. Gomel at least has personality but these days, I feel like I’ve seen a thousand Gmorks. It’s almost a trope to just have a big shaggy black wolf with bright eyes. The same with even invoking ‘dire wolf’. It’s a name pretty much only in public consciousness due to the fantasy genre. This isn’t a DnD monster. In Ragnarok, Fenris doesn’t have to be anything other than a big wolf. You have no context or backstory so they design is just what it is. It doesn’t tell you anything about character as there’s nothing to tell. And we’ve all seen it before. It’s a big bad wolf. And it’s black even. The cliche of a wolf villain. Carcharoth isn’t that.

I think a lack of elegance is exactly right for Carcharoth. Sauron chooses his form. Agile, graceful, a blade of an animal. I think that’s what led me to a smoky, ethereal entity to differentiate him. Also cool to see Huan actually gripping onto and biting a being that’s barely solid.

Carcharoth has been built. Forged. I don’t think there should be an ounce of beauty to him. He’s a weapon. Any traits that could be aesthetically pleasing have been bred and battered out in exchange for deadliness.

That’s what led me to cracked skin, a lack of fur (perhaps only smatterings of brush like bristles), a battering ram of an animal with a mouth full of snaggled blades. That Andrewsarchus has a very nice body shape. The snout seems like it could come off as comical but perhaps not. I’m drawn to short faced bears in terms of build but keeping very wolf like with the hackles, head, tail. I just think it should be imposing, not just in scale but in construction, if that makes sense. His design needs to tell us who he is. And let’s make it memorable.

He definitely needs near human eyes that can emote. Pain and malice and rage. And hunger.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
I think my vision would be more like this interpretation of Andrewsarchus (but scaled up slightly more):
267966606_317615176951229_193235991066866259_n.jpg

With the overall flesh of this:
278418925_1122479894984799_4751771883038631107_n.jpg

But even more hairless and cracked and scarred, with bits of weapons sticking out of him like bristles.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
For the record, all we have of Andrewsarcchus is the skull. So, the body types in art and models are guesses based on what we think the closest relatives might be. Was this creature a predator? Or an omnivore? Did it look more like a wolf/bear, or a warthog? Those are open-ended questions, so despite being a 'real' creature, there's quite a bit of creature design in those images. So not a bad starting point.

Giving Carcaroth a big maw is important. And making him have some personality is the difference between the Gmork and...just a wolf. There are wolves ... Just straight up talking wolves.... In the first Narnia film. We're not going to do that!


We've already made Tevildo essentially a black tiger with a beard. We don't have to make Carcaroth simply a large black wolf. But I would want the design to read as 'wolf' and not 'mutated bear thing'. Some ugliness is fine, but I don't think pre-silmaril Carcaroth need be grotesque.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is what we've already discussed considering Draugluin:

10 minute discussion in Silm Film Session 3-26

* Draugluin cannot change shape
* Draugluin speaks
* Skinning Draugluin to get the pelt is okay
* Distorted in some way...not a normal wolf (scars)
* Look unnatural
* Physically functions as a big wolf
* Reference image: Gmork

Avoid use of the word "werewolf." Because there is no transformation. 'Fell wolves' is okay.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
One thought: no eyes. Led by scent. This very primal hunting, sensory, hungry kind of longing. He's been tortured on the surface level and what we are left with is this being running on scent which I think has clear ties to hunger and feeds into the lust and hunger themes through the series. Plus, you can have some fun visuals.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
One thought: no eyes. Led by scent. This very primal hunting, sensory, hungry kind of longing. He's been tortured on the surface level and what we are left with is this being running on scent which I think has clear ties to hunger and feeds into the lust and hunger themes through the series. Plus, you can have some fun visuals.
interesting
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
If he's the wolf of Angband he possibly lives mostly in darkness or little light... well aside from fires, which i assume are always somewhere present.

So... could technically make some sense
 
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