Why is Aragorn's opinion given so much weight for the composition of the Fellowship?

[Darren Grey]

The topic of "the Strider" was considered at beautiful length in the last episode, but not why Strider is mentioned in the first place. Gandalf is talking about whether or not he should join the company, and says not to count on it as Elrond will have much to say on this, "and your friend the Strider".

Why would Aragorn have much to say on the composition of the company? Why would his opinion be held second only to Elrond (as Gandalf's phrasing seems to imply)? It can't just be about what information he scouts out - this is about the whole strategy for the quest. Wouldn't more learned people take priority?

My one thought is that Aragorn as Isildur's Heir is deeply wound up in the fate of the Ring. He, seemingly by chance, has already been caught up in its journey to Rivendell and played a key role in ensuring the Ring and its bearer made it there. It seems fated that he would in fact be the head of any party heading out with the Ring, making up for Isildur's mistake by protecting the new bearer in the quest to destroy the Ring. Plus on a practical level he knows the lands better than most and is a seasoned traveler. If he is the natural candidate for party leader then he should have much to say about the membership of said party, especially if a prospective member is one who is so respected that they would displace him as party leader.

 

[Rachel Port]

Well, third after Elrond and Gandalf himself.

I agree with you that the importance of this quest for him as Elendil's heir, Aragorn's leadership ability, and his skill and experience at the kind of traveling involved, are important factors. I would add one more - he has already travelled with the hobbits, and at least two of them are going to be part of the fellowship. He knows their strengths and weaknesses for the task, and can see what qualities are needed to balance that.

I also wonder if he has something to do with the decision to have all the free peoples represented. In one of the early drafts of the Paths of the Dead, the prophesy sent by Elrond specifies

Three lords I see from the three kindreds:
halls forgotten in the hills they tread,
Elflord, Dwarflord, Man forewandred,
from the North they come by the Paths of the Dead.

So the inclusion of Legolas and Gimli might come from the same thought, and Aragorn might still be conscious of its significance.

 

[Flammifer]

Aragorn is not there. He has gone out scouting. Left with the sons of Elrond. So his input is not immediately available.

Aragorn's entire strategy is important to the composition of the Company. Aragorn promised, in the Council, to come to Minas Tirith. Does he intend to travel part way with the Company, or does he think it would be better to head separately to Minas Tirith? If Aragorn is available, I think Gandalf wants him as part of the Company, at least some of the way. But, Gandalf seems not to know Aragorn's own thoughts on this. Aragorn may not have fully formulated his strategy yet.

It is not a given that Aragorn will just do whatever Gandalf thinks best. Aragorn may listen to Gandalf's advice, but he makes his own decisions, and sometimes it is Aragorn who gives Gandalf the advice, as when, "I counselled that we should hunt for Gollum, too late though it may seem."

By the way, where is Boromir during the two month delay in Rivendell? My hypothesis is that he is with Aragorn, and that Aragorn's assessment of Boromir will play a large part in Aragorn's strategy, and whether he thinks it better to travel with the Company or separately. Of course, there is no evidence that Boromir is travelling with Aragorn, but I think he would be a very impatient and irritable guest in Rivendell if living through a two month delay. That the Hobbits chronicle nothing about the impatience of Boromir in Rivendell, leads me to suppose that he was not there.

 

[Rachel Port]

The road to Minas Tirith is the same as the road to Mordor for hundreds of miles, as Aragorn tells Frodo. I don't think there's much question in his mind about going to Minas Tirith - he sees the prophesy as a call. His difficulty after Gandalf's death is because he still wants to go to Minas Tirith but thinks he must go with Frodo since Gandalf can't, and even more so after Boromir's death.

Like you, I think that Aragorn and Boromir spend a lot of time getting to know each other during the two months - and I don't think all of it is spent scouting, but that some of the time is spent in Rivendell. These two need to size each other up and they seem to a some positive relationship - when Aragorn tells Frodo that Boromir will also be part of the company, he says he is a valiant man.

Do you really think Boromir, or Boromir and Aragorn, travelling separately from the rest of the company is even a passing thought?

 

[JJ48]

"If you bring a Ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him, especially if the Ranger is Aragorn."

 

[Anthony Lawther]

It may be that the question is whether Gandalf or Elrond take the position of wise advisor within the company. If they both want to go, but realise that they shouldn't go together, then Aragorn may be the tie-breaker in that vote.

In that case I wouldn't envy Aragorn: Who does he risk annoying? Gandalf or Elrond through rejection, or Arwen if he takes Elrond and something bad (like Balrog of Morgoth) happens to him.

That might also explain why Elrond doesn't accompany his sons with the Grey Company, as Glorfindel could lead the defence of Rivendell if needed.

 

[Rachel Port]

Interesting, Anthony, but where you have one rolling stone and one moss-gatherer to choose from for a long and difficult journey, the choice isn't really that difficult. I sort of agree with the professor that if anyone from Rivendell might have accompanied Elladan and Elrohir, it should have been Arwen.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Interesting, Anthony, but where you have one rolling stone and one moss-gatherer to choose from for a long and difficult journey, the choice isn't really that difficult. I sort of agree with the professor that if anyone from Rivendell might have accompanied Elladan and Elrohir, it should have been Arwen.

And yet, Elrond has seen war, against Sauron, (granted, a while ago) while Arwen is not reported to have been involved in war at all, having been born centuries after the Last Alliance. Her brothers appear to have been inspired to their war-like behaviour by the need to rescue their mother, yet Arwen appears to not have been. Why then is she a more natural choice to be sent off with her suitor, than her father? It would be naive indeed to believe that the company would be unaffected by the preparations for war happening in the south.

Elrond hasn't had cause to leave Rivendell in a while, but we will see that he does when the motivation is there. One major motivation would be to ensure that his daughter wasn't marrying a king wearing the One Ring, which is one possible way that Sauron might be defeated, with the North and South kingdoms reunited.

 

[Rachel Port]

How many thousands of years is it since Elrond went anywhere? Has he even gone to Lorien to visit his in-laws, as Arwen and probably his sons have? As for Arwen, there is no sign of her ever having done anything. Her presence on the Paths of the Dead would have been a light in the darkness, rather like Galadriel's glass, and in Minas Tirith both for its defense and as a healer - since her brothers are healers, we can assume she is one as well. If nothing else, I'd like to see the meeting of Arwen and Eowyn. The one time she speaks (outside of the Appendices), she shows understanding and generosity. I would have liked to see her on the Pelennor fields.

I think Elrond has more faith in Aragorn than to feel a need personally to keep the Ring from him.

 

[Darren Grey]

Arwen is not reported to have been involved in war at all

Nor had Luthien when she went with Beren in his quest.

And nor had Merry and Pippin, when Gandalf argued they should join for reasons of fellowship. Gandalf said "it would be well to trust rather to friendship than to great wisdom". Arwen going would surely make more sense than Merry and Pippin...

Of course we also know that Arwen was not invented until very late in the story's writing, and it would have been impossible at that stage for Tolkien to edit her into the fellowship. But if he'd invented her and Aragorn's fate earlier I can't help but wonder if he would have given her a much more significant role, given the parallels he draws between her and Luthien.

 

[Flammifer]

The road to Minas Tirith is the same as the road to Mordor for hundreds of miles, as Aragorn tells Frodo. I don't think there's much question in his mind about going to Minas Tirith - he sees the prophesy as a call. His difficulty after Gandalf's death is because he still wants to go to Minas Tirith but thinks he must go with Frodo since Gandalf can't, and even more so after Boromir's death.

Like you, I think that Aragorn and Boromir spend a lot of time getting to know each other during the two months - and I don't think all of it is spent scouting, but that some of the time is spent in Rivendell. These two need to size each other up and they seem to a some positive relationship - when Aragorn tells Frodo that Boromir will also be part of the company, he says he is a valiant man.

Do you really think Boromir, or Boromir and Aragorn, travelling separately from the rest of the company is even a passing thought?

I think that Aragorn, as a wise stratagist, would have given considerable thought to alternative strategies. Would it be better if Aragorn and Boromir arrived in Gondor ahead of the Ring? Would it be advantageous to bolster the resolve of the Rohirrim a rapidly as possible? Would it be better if Aragorn could travel separately from the Ring? Might he be able to distract Sauron's attention, and keep the Eye focused on him, rather than Frodo and Company?

Also, Aragorn must wonder how far he can trust Boromir. Would Boromir be a good addition to the Company of the Ring? Would it be better to travel to Minas Tirith with Boromir, but separately from the Ring?

Although the road to Minas Tirith is the same as the road to Mordor for hundreds of miles, there are many possible roads. The fastest might well be to cross the Misty Mountains by the Dwarf Road Pass, and then down the Anduin by boat. The Company has to assess which route to take, but Aragorn also has to consider whether getting involved in either Minas Tirith or Edoras as quickly as possible, while the Ring travels more slowly and secretively, might be a good idea.

Obviously, Aragorn does decide to accompany the Company. But it could well be that this was not the best decision? Providence seems to provide that the Company does split up, which allows Aragorn to participate in rallying the Rohirrim, challenging Sauron, and diverting his attention through the Palantir, then taking the Paths of the Dead, to take over the attacking fleet of Umbar, and win the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

What would have been the course of events if Aragorn and Boromir had left in advance of the Company, and travelled faster, direct to Edoras, to rally the Rohirrim?

 

[Rachel Port]

What would have been the course of events if Aragorn and Boromir had left in advance of the Company, and travelled faster, direct to Edoras, to rally the Rohirrim?

Could they have, given what Saruman and Wormtongue were up to? Could they have freed Theoden by themselves, keeping it a federation of men only? Was it supposed to be that rather than of all the free peoples? Aragorn would thus have been revealed to Sauron earlier - would that have worked as well? If there had been no journey through the Paths of the Dead? If Frodo hadn't grown and found the strength to determine his own course rather than depending on others? If the fellowship had not had Men represented? If Gandalf had not been killed in Moria and come back so much more powerful?

It makes me dizzy just thinking of all the "ifs."

 

[Longtimer]

What would have been the course of events if Aragorn and Boromir had left in advance of the Company, and travelled faster, direct to Edoras, to rally the Rohirrim?

This would have had many negative outcomes assuming the following happens. Fellowship goes straight to Moria. Gandalf falls.

Who leads the Fellowship then. Do they escape the pursuing orcs. Do they visit to Lorien. Does the Fellowship split with hobbits brought to Fangorn to rouse the forest. No phial of Galadriel or other items that sustain Sam and Frodo. Without the Fellowship splitting does Gollum become their guide necessary on many levels.

All in all the path that was taken was the one that needed to be taken.

 

[Flammifer]

This would have had many negative outcomes assuming the following happens. Fellowship goes straight to Moria. Gandalf falls.

Who leads the Fellowship then. Do they escape the pursuing orcs. Do they visit to Lorien. Does the Fellowship split with hobbits brought to Fangorn to rouse the forest. No phial of Galadriel or other items that sustain Sam and Frodo. Without the Fellowship splitting does Gollum become their guide necessary on many levels.

All in all the path that was taken was the one that needed to be taken.

Or, alternatively, could Providence have worked with many different alternative courses of action, and still ensure that the outcome was good?

If the Children of Illuvatar have free will, yet the overall outcome for Arda will follow Eru's plan, then I think Providence must be pretty adaptable, with a vast ability to adjust on the fly.

 

[JJ48]

This would have had many negative outcomes assuming the following happens. Fellowship goes straight to Moria. Gandalf falls.

Who leads the Fellowship then. Do they escape the pursuing orcs. Do they visit to Lorien. Does the Fellowship split with hobbits brought to Fangorn to rouse the forest. No phial of Galadriel or other items that sustain Sam and Frodo. Without the Fellowship splitting does Gollum become their guide necessary on many levels.

All in all the path that was taken was the one that needed to be taken.

Or, as Niggle said in another Tolkien work, "Things might have been different, but they could not have been better."

 

[Rachel Port]

If the Children of Illuvatar have free will, yet the overall outcome for Arda will follow Eru's plan, then I think Providence must be pretty adaptable, with a vast ability to adjust on the fly.

Yes, but it wouldn't have been The Lord of the Rings.

 

[Longtimer]

Or, alternatively, could Providence have worked with many different alternative courses of action, and still ensure that the outcome was good?

Definitely what you say is true but with a caveat. There definitely is freewill in Ea but there seems to be a general plan and if people make choices inconsistent with the plan bad things can happen. Had the council decided to send the ring to bombadil or throw it into the sea Providence could have made it work out but maybe after an age of darkness. So knowing the course that things took it would seem that all chose to play their parts in accordance with the plan.

 

[Flammifer]

Yes, but it wouldn't have been The Lord of the Rings.

It would certainly be a different Lord of the Rings. Perhaps it exists in some parallel universe?

However, more to do with the Lord of the Rings that we have in this universe, if we consider that Gandalf saying that the opinion of Aragorn would be important in determining the composition of the quest, and surmise that Aragorn probably considered many strategies before deciding to join the Company, then, when Aragorn, after the death of Boromir, says, "It is I that has failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me," was he thinking only of recent events? Or, did he perhaps think back, and wonder if his decision to join the Company (and, especially, to bring Boromir along with him), had been a mistake?

What exactly (or what multiple factors) did Aragorn consider to have been his failures?

 

[Flammifer]

Definitely what you say is true but with a caveat. There definitely is freewill in Ea but there seems to be a general plan and if eople make choices inconsistent with the plan bad things can happen. Had the council decided to send the ring to bombadil or throw it into the sea Providence could have made it work out but maybe after an age of darkness. So knowing the course that things took it would seem that all chose to play their parts in accordance with the plan.

Except, of course, that presumably all do not choose to play their parts in accordance with the plan. Is it part of the plan for Saruman to turn traitor? Is it part of the plan for Gollum to betray Frodo and Sam to Shelob? Is it part of the plan for Boromir to try to take the Ring from Frodo?

I doubt that any of those things were part of an ideal plan. However, Providence seems able to take them in its stride.

 

[Rachel Port]

Except, of course, that presumably all do not choose to play their parts in accordance with the plan. Is it part of the plan for Saruman to turn traitor? Is it part of the plan for Gollum to betray Frodo and Sam to Shelob? Is it part of the plan for Boromir to try to take the Ring from Frodo?

I doubt that any of those things were part of an ideal plan. However, Providence seems able to take them in its stride.

If Saruman hadn't turned traitor and kept Gandalf prisoner (and if Butterbur had sent the letter, of course), Merry and Pippin might not have come along and the Ents would not have been aroused and Faramir and Eowyn would have died and the Witch King would not have been killed. If Boromir had not tried to take the Ring from Frodo, Frodo and Sam would not have separated from the others at Amon Hen. Who knows what choices the others would have made. And if more of them had gone into Mordor with Frodo, would the Ring have had an ever stronger effect on them, and would one or more of them tried to take it, and perhaps succeeded? What would have happened to the Quest then? And would Gollum have been able to play his part, or come so close to being saved?

Not all intended parts of the plans of Providence are necessarily good, though the ends are. But then I don't believe in a perfect destiny, or that humans belong in paradise. I think life didn't begin until the expulsion from Eden, that the expulsion was a kind of birth.