Odola
Well-Known Member
Fine with me. Does not minder the fun of discussing this. ;-) Made me to reconsider the scene again. Such discussions make one to engage with the text again.I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.
Fine with me. Does not minder the fun of discussing this. ;-) Made me to reconsider the scene again. Such discussions make one to engage with the text again.I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.
Finrod and Beren clothing themselves as orc - like later Sam and Frodo - and pretending to be orcs is a lie also. This is totally expected. As it is said - war is deceit. When Aragorn pretends to Sauron to have claimed the ring - this is a lie also.
In his converation Faramir has to assume Frodo could be an enemy's spy aimed to find Gondor entries into Mordor and he deliberately tries to pretend to be blind and clueless. But he is giving himself away when he recognises Cirith Ungol in a split second just by the vague description Frodo gives him. It is clear form that that Faramir really knows this area of Mordor like his back pocket.
I don't know about Finrod and Beren. Frodo and Sam put on orc clothing as a disguise, but don't really pretend to be orcs. Hiding is not the same as lying. As for Aragorn, he in no way pretends to have claimed the Ring. He shows himself in his royalty and power, and shows his power by taking control of the palantir away from Sauron. That is his power as King and in himself. Sauron can assume what he likes. He fears that Aragorn may have claimed the Ring, but that's from his own interpretation, not anything Aragorn has said directly or indirectly.
Nothing to be sorry about, why?I'm sorry Odola, but sometimes I think we are reading different books. Like Anthony, I think we will have to agree to differ.
Like Anthony, I think we will have to agree to differ.
In Appendix B, it states, "1640 (Third Age) King Tarondor removes the King's house to Minas Anor, and plants a seedling of the White Tree. Osgiliath begins to fall into ruin. Mordor is left unguarded."
So, the guard on Mordor lapsed 1,378 years before the Council of Elrond.
The Witch King vanishes from the North in 1975, but re-appears in Mordor in 1980 and there gathers the Nazgul. The Nazgul issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil in 2000. Minas Ithil falls in 2002.
I would guess that from at least 1980 or shortly thereafter, it has not been possible for Gondorians to scout within Mordor. Once the Witch King, and the other Nazgul established themselves in Mordor, their presence and that of orcs would have been enough to make scouting within Mordor extremely difficult if not impossible.
I don't know the movies. I saw them once, and they were so different from the books I'm not even sure I got all the way through. From what the professor has said in class,though, it seems they tell a different story. From what I remember, many characters are very different and much of the story. So I can't say anything about what Boromir says in the movie. But I don't think that changing the story counts as interpretation. If you are going by the movies, we are talking about different things. Faramir's meeting with Frodo. Faramir is suspicious at first, but as they talk, he comes to believe Frodo, and decides to help him. And Faramir doesn't lie.
Gondor did stop guarding the border with Mordor, and they were defeated - they lost Osgiliath and Minas Ithil, and later Ithilien. But that was long before the LOTR story. Flammifer gave this timeline in his comment above:
Faramir has scouted in Ithilien, so he would know about the Morgul Vale, where the stairs of Cirith Ungol are, though he might not have been near there himself - Minas Morgul is in Ithilien at one end of the Vale and the Tower of Cirith Ungol is on the other, in Mordor. There are vague stories of terror up there, but from long ago, with no memory of what it might be. But the existence of the stairs is known.. Faramir studies lore, and that could be part of the lore soldiers learn. His recognizing the description Frodo gives of the place is no proof that he has ever been there.
What about Merry and Pippin then petending to have the ring so the orc spares them?
Or Aragron playing somebody else in Bree and before in Rohan and Gondor?
Faramir has to pretend be clueless and inept to the enemy the same way and for very similar and far more urgent reasons.
You want an expalnation?And you still have not explained why you think such a lie would be necessary for Faramir to say, anyway. He could have simply remained silent on the issue, or said something like, "Who knows what you may find on the roads East?" and both guarded state secrets AND remained truthful (if we assume that spies enter Mordor). That he went so far in his claims otherwise convince me absolutely that Gondor does not have spies there, and has not in some time (possibly since Sauron has returned, possibly since even before that, when the Nazgul still had that land as a place of fear and dread).
Forgive me, but you seem to have completely misunderstood my point. You've proven well why Faramir would not share information concerning spies and hidden paths, but not why he would lie. What does the lie accomplish which could not be accomplished with a true statement or silence? I see none, and so if Faramir is lying, he does so knowingly and without need. I do not think that we are meant to take Faramir as a dishonest liar, so I choose instead to trust him.
If he suspects this is what the people behind Frodo want to get out of him, he is preventibly blocking off any discussion about such matter in the bud. It is a clear signal - you can get no info about this issue from me, I will deny the issue does even exist. Is Frodo a spy he has to play along with this, otherwise he would blow his cover.
Voicing this version aloud reminds also Faramir's men that this is the official version fed probaply even to their very own people who are not soldiers of a certain rank and trust.
Ok, I thought we were considering the idea that Faramir was withholding information in case Frodo and Sam were captured and interrogated; but the idea that he might consider Frodo and Sam themselves to be spies by this point is even less plausible. It's quite clear that he trusts and supports Frodo by the time he says this, and it doesn't sound to me like any of his men overhear this conversation.
Whatever his personal convictions may be he has to act according to his position in the army and according to the official policy. It is clear his men consider Frodo a spy. Whatever his intuition may be he has to assume a trick of the enemy and behave according to the least advantagous option possible in this situation. He is not a private man at this moment.
He has even less freedom in this situation than Eomer when he lets Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas go. Eomer risks only his own life doing that, Faramir would be potentially betraying his country.
He's having a private conversation with Frodo that his men are not privy to. What they may think simply isn't a factor.
Moreover, if it was a factor, he wouldn't be able to let Sam and Frodo go at all, as their law demands that he bring such trespassers to the Steward for judgement. Your view is simply inconsistent with everything we read in the text.
Following your cynical view, any spy of the enemy, knowing the rules, would be completely suspicious of being let go, and trust none of the ‘information’ they gathered during this meeting. Releasing a suspected spy would get Faramir in more trouble, not less.That the conversation is private does not Kinder the fact that he is the a captain on duty.
Had he be off duty just strolling about his vacation home when he met Frodo he could act on a certain way. Leaving Frodo go if he were a spy after feeding him wrong information would have been a valid position do as to not arouse the enemy's suspition and as such Faramir is not court-marshalled. Otherwise he would be. But he is not.
Leaving Frodo go if he were a spy after feeding him wrong information would have been a valid position do as to not arouse the enemy's suspition
Actually this is within his disposal to a certain degree as to not alert the enemy that his plan has been recognised as such. Keeping up the pretensje is also part of war. Otherwise Faramir would have been court-marshalled but he is only reprimanded by his farher.Following your cynical view, any spy of the enemy, knowing the rules, would be completely suspicious of being let go, and trust none of the ‘information’ they gathered during this meeting. Releasing a suspected spy would get Faramir in more trouble, not less.
Actually this is within his disposal to a certain degree as to not alert the enemy that his plan has been recognised as such. Keeping up the pretensje is also part of war. Otherwise Faramir would have been court-marshalled but he is only reprimanded by his farher.
What book are you reading, because it is certainly not J.R.R. Tolkien's The Two Towers.
Where do you get this from the text? Where does the text support the idea that this is Faramir's plan? Where does the text support the idea that Faramir would even be ok with such a plan? Moreover, this ignores the gaping flaw that I have brought up several times and which you continue to avoid addressing, which is that his "lies" wouldn't even accomplish anything or affect the enemy's actions if they were spies, because such lies aren't really something they can act upon!
Even if we take as fact the absurd idea that Gondor regularly sends spies into Mordor itself (please show me in the text where we have any indication that they have first-hand knowledge from such a source), and the slanderous accusation that Faramir would throw aside all morals and principles at the drop of a hat (I personally don't think he values them so cheaply as you seem to suggest), we still have the fact that such lies would accomplish nothing and would amount to him letting suspected spies go for absolutely no good reason. So, if we assume all this to be true, not only is Faramir a filthy, lying scoundrel; he's an idiotic filthy, lying scoundrel thoroughly unfit for even the most basic of mental tasks, much less leading men on dangerous missions behind enemy lines.
Had there never been a Tark spy for centuries they would not suspect Sam and Frodo to be ones.