Why is Aragorn's opinion given so much weight for the composition of the Fellowship?

Finrod and Beren clothing themselves as orc - like later Sam and Frodo - and pretending to be orcs is a lie also. This is totally expected. As it is said - war is deceit. When Aragorn pretends to Sauron to have claimed the ring - this is a lie also.

I don't know about Finrod and Beren. Frodo and Sam put on orc clothing as a disguise, but don't really pretend to be orcs. Hiding is not the same as lying. As for Aragorn, he in no way pretends to have claimed the Ring. He shows himself in his royalty and power, and shows his power by taking control of the palantir away from Sauron. That is his power as King and in himself. Sauron can assume what he likes. He fears that Aragorn may have claimed the Ring, but that's from his own interpretation, not anything Aragorn has said directly or indirectly.

In his converation Faramir has to assume Frodo could be an enemy's spy aimed to find Gondor entries into Mordor and he deliberately tries to pretend to be blind and clueless. But he is giving himself away when he recognises Cirith Ungol in a split second just by the vague description Frodo gives him. It is clear form that that Faramir really knows this area of Mordor like his back pocket.

I'm sorry Odola, but sometimes I think we are reading different books. Like Anthony, I think we will have to agree to differ.
 
I don't know about Finrod and Beren. Frodo and Sam put on orc clothing as a disguise, but don't really pretend to be orcs. Hiding is not the same as lying. As for Aragorn, he in no way pretends to have claimed the Ring. He shows himself in his royalty and power, and shows his power by taking control of the palantir away from Sauron. That is his power as King and in himself. Sauron can assume what he likes. He fears that Aragorn may have claimed the Ring, but that's from his own interpretation, not anything Aragorn has said directly or indirectly.

What about Merry and Pippin then petending to have the ring so the orc spares them?
Or Aragron playing somebody else in Bree and before in Rohan and Gondor?
Faramir has to pretend be clueless and inept to the enemy the same way and for very similar and far more urgent reasons.

I'm sorry Odola, but sometimes I think we are reading different books. Like Anthony, I think we will have to agree to differ.
Nothing to be sorry about, why?

Yes, we all tend to read and consider everything form Frodo's perspective - at least at the beginning. But there is a world out there beyong Frodo's very limited view. He is focussed on his task so much that he completely disregards everything else - even the most obvious things like the war and politics going on around him and which he sees but not really acknowledges - and that increasingly so as his quest goes on.

Like Anthony, I think we will have to agree to differ.

There is no problem in a disagreement but in the lack of aknowledging that the text can read to a different effect by a different person. In the movies it is clear thet Boromir was in Mordor according to the movie's perspective. His "one does not simply walk into Mordor" and then the minutae description of the air there makes it seems that he has breathed that said air himself. And this interpretation makes sense. Not having Gondor scouting out Mordor would be a negligence of such a degree that Gondor's defeat would be really well deserved.
 
I don't know the movies. I saw them once, and they were so different from the books I'm not even sure I got all the way through. From what the professor has said in class,though, it seems they tell a different story. From what I remember, many characters are very different and much of the story. So I can't say anything about what Boromir says in the movie. But I don't think that changing the story counts as interpretation. If you are going by the movies, we are talking about different things. Faramir's meeting with Frodo. Faramir is suspicious at first, but as they talk, he comes to believe Frodo, and decides to help him. And Faramir doesn't lie.

Gondor did stop guarding the border with Mordor, and they were defeated - they lost Osgiliath and Minas Ithil, and later Ithilien. But that was long before the LOTR story. Flammifer gave this timeline in his comment above:

In Appendix B, it states, "1640 (Third Age) King Tarondor removes the King's house to Minas Anor, and plants a seedling of the White Tree. Osgiliath begins to fall into ruin. Mordor is left unguarded."

So, the guard on Mordor lapsed 1,378 years before the Council of Elrond.

The Witch King vanishes from the North in 1975, but re-appears in Mordor in 1980 and there gathers the Nazgul. The Nazgul issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil in 2000. Minas Ithil falls in 2002.

I would guess that from at least 1980 or shortly thereafter, it has not been possible for Gondorians to scout within Mordor. Once the Witch King, and the other Nazgul established themselves in Mordor, their presence and that of orcs would have been enough to make scouting within Mordor extremely difficult if not impossible.


Faramir has scouted in Ithilien, so he would know about the Morgul Vale, where the stairs of Cirith Ungol are, though he might not have been near there himself - Minas Morgul is in Ithilien at one end of the Vale and the Tower of Cirith Ungol is on the other, in Mordor. There are vague stories of terror up there, but from long ago, with no memory of what it might be. But the existence of the stairs is known.. Faramir studies lore, and that could be part of the lore soldiers learn. His recognizing the description Frodo gives of the place is no proof that he has ever been there.
 
I don't know the movies. I saw them once, and they were so different from the books I'm not even sure I got all the way through. From what the professor has said in class,though, it seems they tell a different story. From what I remember, many characters are very different and much of the story. So I can't say anything about what Boromir says in the movie. But I don't think that changing the story counts as interpretation. If you are going by the movies, we are talking about different things. Faramir's meeting with Frodo. Faramir is suspicious at first, but as they talk, he comes to believe Frodo, and decides to help him. And Faramir doesn't lie.

Gondor did stop guarding the border with Mordor, and they were defeated - they lost Osgiliath and Minas Ithil, and later Ithilien. But that was long before the LOTR story. Flammifer gave this timeline in his comment above:




Faramir has scouted in Ithilien, so he would know about the Morgul Vale, where the stairs of Cirith Ungol are, though he might not have been near there himself - Minas Morgul is in Ithilien at one end of the Vale and the Tower of Cirith Ungol is on the other, in Mordor. There are vague stories of terror up there, but from long ago, with no memory of what it might be. But the existence of the stairs is known.. Faramir studies lore, and that could be part of the lore soldiers learn. His recognizing the description Frodo gives of the place is no proof that he has ever been there.

If he never goes there nor sends people there himself and never were supposed to be, this it would be uncecessary unpractical knowledge to burden oneself with that he would have stored somewhere deep at the back of his brain and not having it available to recognise it in a split second when described by the second-hand account of Frodo, who had not yet been there himself at this moment. It would be something Faramir only would use at leassure when pondering over some ancient text. Also some vague rumours of some strange danger from a whole country rumoured to be full of any kind of strange dangers possible would not make him that determined to warn Frodo about. After all strange horrors is what one does expect from Mordor. No, he has to know more than he is allowed to show a randow stranger, to act as he does.
 
What about Merry and Pippin then petending to have the ring so the orc spares them?
Or Aragron playing somebody else in Bree and before in Rohan and Gondor?
Faramir has to pretend be clueless and inept to the enemy the same way and for very similar and far more urgent reasons.

I'm not sure that going by a different name is really lying, especially in a culture where many people have different names and titles. However, even if it is, the examples given are not Faramir. Merry and Pippin, in particular, seem to be snaring an orc with a falsehood, which is explicitly what Faramir says he would never do!

And you still have not explained why you think such a lie would be necessary for Faramir to say, anyway. He could have simply remained silent on the issue, or said something like, "Who knows what you may find on the roads East?" and both guarded state secrets AND remained truthful (if we assume that spies enter Mordor). That he went so far in his claims otherwise convince me absolutely that Gondor does not have spies there, and has not in some time (possibly since Sauron has returned, possibly since even before that, when the Nazgul still had that land as a place of fear and dread).
 
And you still have not explained why you think such a lie would be necessary for Faramir to say, anyway. He could have simply remained silent on the issue, or said something like, "Who knows what you may find on the roads East?" and both guarded state secrets AND remained truthful (if we assume that spies enter Mordor). That he went so far in his claims otherwise convince me absolutely that Gondor does not have spies there, and has not in some time (possibly since Sauron has returned, possibly since even before that, when the Nazgul still had that land as a place of fear and dread).
You want an expalnation?
O.K
Imagine Faramir with his merry men doing they work, they propably have seen a fair share of Mordor's spies. Orcs do not make good spies, as they are neiter subtle nor bright. So who could that be? Merchants, smugglers (maybe selling narcotics and poisons, this seems like a business Sauron would support and some drugs are very ancient). Those would contact Gondor's own underwould to exchange the goods and to gather intel. Those kinds Faramir knows of, but sees rarely. Then comes a strange creature with a clearly corrupted guide heading for Mordor itself. This confues him. The person seems harmless and helpless enough, but needs an entry point to Mordor. This makes it semm he is out for a very spacific intel. This kind of intel is strickly secret, if the enemy gets to know those points he just need to place some few special forces there to pick up the Gondorian spies in Mordor at their attempted return. Those will loose their lives, their gathered intel and their cover. Gondor would loose its importatnt source of information. Such an info is not to be shared with the enemy at any cost. So he playes along - if the enemy is sending someone who looks harmless he can play that game too. He pretends to be clueless and naive himself. He gives Frodo the answer he want the enemy to hear - knowing he propably will not be completely believed whan it reaches Sauron but at least he has not given anything usefull away. But then he hears Frodo describing Cirith Ungol. And then his resolve falters for a moment. If Frodo is really who he claims to be - hoverver unlikely may seem, then he should not be going unaware towards a certain death. As such in his pity for Frodo Faramir gives him the warning about Cirith Ungol, balancing the line not to uncover too much of Gondor secret knowledge.
That's an explanation thet makes most sense to me given the circumstances.
There is a kind of rule that if someone ensure you that he is not lying - doublecheck it, and if he assures you of something unasked - take it with a barrel of salt.
 
Forgive me, but you seem to have completely misunderstood my point. You've proven well why Faramir would not share information concerning spies and hidden paths, but not why he would lie. What does the lie accomplish which could not be accomplished with a true statement or silence? I see none, and so if Faramir is lying, he does so knowingly and without need. I do not think that we are meant to take Faramir as a dishonest liar, so I choose instead to trust him.
 
Forgive me, but you seem to have completely misunderstood my point. You've proven well why Faramir would not share information concerning spies and hidden paths, but not why he would lie. What does the lie accomplish which could not be accomplished with a true statement or silence? I see none, and so if Faramir is lying, he does so knowingly and without need. I do not think that we are meant to take Faramir as a dishonest liar, so I choose instead to trust him.

If he suspects this is what the people behind Frodo want to get out of him, he is preventibly blocking off any discussion about such matter in the bud. It is a clear signal - you can get no info about this issue from me, I will deny the issue does even exist. Is Frodo a spy he has to play along with this, otherwise he would blow his cover.

Voicing this version aloud reminds also Faramir's men that this is the official version fed probaply even to their very own people who are not soldiers of a certain rank and trust.
 
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If he suspects this is what the people behind Frodo want to get out of him, he is preventibly blocking off any discussion about such matter in the bud. It is a clear signal - you can get no info about this issue from me, I will deny the issue does even exist. Is Frodo a spy he has to play along with this, otherwise he would blow his cover.

Voicing this version aloud reminds also Faramir's men that this is the official version fed probaply even to their very own people who are not soldiers of a certain rank and trust.

Ok, I thought we were considering the idea that Faramir was withholding information in case Frodo and Sam were captured and interrogated; but the idea that he might consider Frodo and Sam themselves to be spies by this point is even less plausible. It's quite clear that he trusts and supports Frodo by the time he says this, and it doesn't sound to me like any of his men overhear this conversation.
 
Ok, I thought we were considering the idea that Faramir was withholding information in case Frodo and Sam were captured and interrogated; but the idea that he might consider Frodo and Sam themselves to be spies by this point is even less plausible. It's quite clear that he trusts and supports Frodo by the time he says this, and it doesn't sound to me like any of his men overhear this conversation.

Whatever his personal convictions may be he has to act according to his position in the army and according to the official policy. It is clear his men consider Frodo a spy. Whatever his intuition may be he has to assume a trick of the enemy and behave according to the least advantagous option possible in this situation. He is not a private man at this moment.
He has even less freedom in this situation than Eomer when he lets Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas go. Eomer risks only his own life doing that, Faramir would be potentially betraying his country.
 
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Whatever his personal convictions may be he has to act according to his position in the army and according to the official policy. It is clear his men consider Frodo a spy. Whatever his intuition may be he has to assume a trick of the enemy and behave according to the least advantagous option possible in this situation. He is not a private man at this moment.
He has even less freedom in this situation than Eomer when he lets Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas go. Eomer risks only his own life doing that, Faramir would be potentially betraying his country.

He's having a private conversation with Frodo that his men are not privy to. What they may think simply isn't a factor.

Moreover, if it was a factor, he wouldn't be able to let Sam and Frodo go at all, as their law demands that he bring such trespassers to the Steward for judgement. Your view is simply inconsistent with everything we read in the text.
 
He's having a private conversation with Frodo that his men are not privy to. What they may think simply isn't a factor.

Moreover, if it was a factor, he wouldn't be able to let Sam and Frodo go at all, as their law demands that he bring such trespassers to the Steward for judgement. Your view is simply inconsistent with everything we read in the text.

That the conversation is private does not Kinder the fact that he is the a captain on duty.
Had he be off duty just strolling about his vacation home when he met Frodo he could act on a certain way. Leaving Frodo go if he were a spy after feeding him wrong information would have been a valid position do as to not arouse the enemy's suspition and as such Faramir is not court-marshalled. Otherwise he would be. But he is not.
 
That the conversation is private does not Kinder the fact that he is the a captain on duty.
Had he be off duty just strolling about his vacation home when he met Frodo he could act on a certain way. Leaving Frodo go if he were a spy after feeding him wrong information would have been a valid position do as to not arouse the enemy's suspition and as such Faramir is not court-marshalled. Otherwise he would be. But he is not.
Following your cynical view, any spy of the enemy, knowing the rules, would be completely suspicious of being let go, and trust none of the ‘information’ they gathered during this meeting. Releasing a suspected spy would get Faramir in more trouble, not less.
 
I told myself I wouldn't join this conversation again, but I have to say one more thing. In the book I am reading, Faramir is loved and respected by his men, who would never try to lead him from what his conscience dictates. I don't see that his men think Frodo and Sam are spies once Faramir has determined that they are not. That's his job, as are the private meetings he's had with Frodo and Sam, and it's his decision. None of the men would spy on his private counsels.

Now I'm out.
 
What book are you reading, because it is certainly not J.R.R. Tolkien's The Two Towers.

Leaving Frodo go if he were a spy after feeding him wrong information would have been a valid position do as to not arouse the enemy's suspition

Where do you get this from the text? Where does the text support the idea that this is Faramir's plan? Where does the text support the idea that Faramir would even be ok with such a plan? Moreover, this ignores the gaping flaw that I have brought up several times and which you continue to avoid addressing, which is that his "lies" wouldn't even accomplish anything or affect the enemy's actions if they were spies, because such lies aren't really something they can act upon!

Even if we take as fact the absurd idea that Gondor regularly sends spies into Mordor itself (please show me in the text where we have any indication that they have first-hand knowledge from such a source), and the slanderous accusation that Faramir would throw aside all morals and principles at the drop of a hat (I personally don't think he values them so cheaply as you seem to suggest), we still have the fact that such lies would accomplish nothing and would amount to him letting suspected spies go for absolutely no good reason. So, if we assume all this to be true, not only is Faramir a filthy, lying scoundrel; he's an idiotic filthy, lying scoundrel thoroughly unfit for even the most basic of mental tasks, much less leading men on dangerous missions behind enemy lines.
 
Following your cynical view, any spy of the enemy, knowing the rules, would be completely suspicious of being let go, and trust none of the ‘information’ they gathered during this meeting. Releasing a suspected spy would get Faramir in more trouble, not less.
Actually this is within his disposal to a certain degree as to not alert the enemy that his plan has been recognised as such. Keeping up the pretensje is also part of war. Otherwise Faramir would have been court-marshalled but he is only reprimanded by his farher.
 
Actually this is within his disposal to a certain degree as to not alert the enemy that his plan has been recognised as such. Keeping up the pretensje is also part of war. Otherwise Faramir would have been court-marshalled but he is only reprimanded by his farher.

Do we have any reason to believe a court-martial is even on the table for a son of a steward?

Also, wasn't this topic originally about Aragorn or something? Why are we discussing Faramir-focused, alternate-universe fanfiction?
 
What book are you reading, because it is certainly not J.R.R. Tolkien's The Two Towers.



Where do you get this from the text? Where does the text support the idea that this is Faramir's plan? Where does the text support the idea that Faramir would even be ok with such a plan? Moreover, this ignores the gaping flaw that I have brought up several times and which you continue to avoid addressing, which is that his "lies" wouldn't even accomplish anything or affect the enemy's actions if they were spies, because such lies aren't really something they can act upon!

Even if we take as fact the absurd idea that Gondor regularly sends spies into Mordor itself (please show me in the text where we have any indication that they have first-hand knowledge from such a source), and the slanderous accusation that Faramir would throw aside all morals and principles at the drop of a hat (I personally don't think he values them so cheaply as you seem to suggest), we still have the fact that such lies would accomplish nothing and would amount to him letting suspected spies go for absolutely no good reason. So, if we assume all this to be true, not only is Faramir a filthy, lying scoundrel; he's an idiotic filthy, lying scoundrel thoroughly unfit for even the most basic of mental tasks, much less leading men on dangerous missions behind enemy lines.

Because assuring otherwise would make Gondorians komnacie Howarda so obrót in Wargame that they should have been considers not only by Mordor fifty but by Harad centuries ago. It is simply not believable to have them not about Mordor even if Denethor does rely on the Palantir for his news he keeps it a secret so he has to keep up a pretence where he gest his inteligence from in front of his high commanders. The other one is the orcs' condesention. Had there never been a Tark spy for centuries they would not suspect Sam and Frodo to be ones. This is a sweet irony that both sides take them for spies of the other side.
 
Had there never been a Tark spy for centuries they would not suspect Sam and Frodo to be ones.

What makes you say that? We know that orcs collectively have long memories (e.g. the goblins in The Hobbit recognize Glamdring and Orcrist). Something got past the Watchers, and the last time they know someone did anything like that, it was a Tark; regardless of how many centuries ago it may have been.
 
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