Why is Aragorn's opinion given so much weight for the composition of the Fellowship?

If that's true, there's no reason to write the book. The tension comes from what the characters actually do and how they make their choices. If those actions and choices ultimately don't matter, what's the point?

There never was a question for Tolkien that Frodo was going to be unable to destroy the Ring, and that Gollum was going to complete the task, beginning as soon as Bilbo's ring became The Ring. Since that was the outcome, the story becomes a working out of how that happens. And that is a combination of different forces. I give Providence much less weight than what the people in the story actually do - I agree with Sam that they have some say in what kind of story they are in.



Faramir does not know any other ways to get into Mordor, he tells Frodo, so no, it's almost impossible that he ever went into Mordor. Even his fears about Cirith Ungol are vague - it's a place of mystery and fear without any specifics for him and the people of Gondor. And I don't think Gandalf's knowledge of its dangers is any more specific. Gandalf's worries on learning that Frodo was going that way don't prove that he had any alternatives in mind any more than Faramir. It's Frodo's task to find the way, and as Elrond says, if he cannot find it, no one can.

As for Faramir going with Frodo, besides that being contrary to the author's intent, it leaves out a major variable. If Boromir hadn't fallen (or been saved, depending on your point of view), Frodo might not have been in Ithilien to meet Faramir. Does "fallen" mean tried to take the Ring from Frodo, or been killed trying to save Merry and Pippin? If he hadn't tried to take the Ring, Frodo would still have left for Mordor, but Aragorn's idea that he, Gimli, and Sam might accompany him would have changed so much. The frenzy that came after Boromir says Frodo has disappeared would not have happened, and Merry and Pippin would not have been taken prisoner, Boromir would not have died, and all the events that came from that capture would not have followed. Would Faramir even have been created? Or, if he had tried to take the Ring, but not been killed, Frodo's story would probably have been the same, but there would have been changes to the rest, especially to the story of Minas Tirith and the madness of Denethor.

Essentially these questions boil down to, what if Tolkien had written a different book. And if he had written a different book, would we be here today?

Aragorn has been to Morgul Vale very recently ("There is little need to tell of them,' said Aragorn. `If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have") and so could have any Gondorian before him, as Mordor showing of its might and consolidationg its armies is a very recent thing. Gondor has been tasked with keeping watch over Mordor (one of its main tasks for which it has been established) so how can you can make me believe Faramir being a soldier and commander tasked with holding this border never crossed it? Makes no sense at all. More I would believe Faramir having to keep Gondorian entry points (which there have to be) into Mordor a state secret.
I am with Flamifer on that one. As Gandalf said to Bilbo even if one has been part of a mission which has accomplished great things and fulfilled some prophecies one is still only a small part in a bigger sheme. And a chess match can be won in different ways from any situation by a skillful player.
 
Aragorn has been to Morgul Vale very recently ("There is little need to tell of them,' said Aragorn. `If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have") and so could have any Gondorian before him, as Mordor showing of its might and consolidationg its armies is a very recent thing. Gondor has been tasked with keeping watch over Mordor (one of its main tasks for which it has been established) so how can you can make me believe Faramir being a soldier and commander tasked with holding this border never crossed it? Makes no sense at all. More I would believe Faramir having to keep Gondorian entry points (which there have to be) into Mordor a state secret.
I am with Flamifer on that one. As Gandalf said to Bilbo even if one has been part of a mission which has accomplished great things and fulfilled some prophecies one is still only a small part in a bigger sheme. And a chess match can be won in different ways from any situation by a skillful player.

Faramir himself claims to have never been that way.

‘We of Gondor do not ever pass east of the Road in these days, and none of us younger men has ever done so, nor has any of us set foot upon the Mountains of Shadow. Of them we know only old report and the rumour of bygone days. But there is some dark terror that dwells in the passes above Minas Morgul. If Cirith Ungol is named, old men and masters of lore will blanch and fall silent.'

Given Faramir's character, I could see him declining to speak on something he felt was a state secret, but I don't think he would outright lie. If he claims that he and his men have not been as far east as the Ephel Dúath, then I feel we should take him at his word (that is, if anyone of his generation has done so, it was without his knowledge).

Aragorn does seem to indicate that he has been in the Morgul Vale, at least, while searching for Gollum; but the Morgul Vale is still outside of Mordor proper (it appears to be on the western side of the pass), and Aragorn may not even have been that deep into it.
 
Faramir himself claims to have never been that way.

‘We of Gondor do not ever pass east of the Road in these days, and none of us younger men has ever done so, nor has any of us set foot upon the Mountains of Shadow. Of them we know only old report and the rumour of bygone days. But there is some dark terror that dwells in the passes above Minas Morgul. If Cirith Ungol is named, old men and masters of lore will blanch and fall silent.'

Given Faramir's character, I could see him declining to speak on something he felt was a state secret, but I don't think he would outright lie. If he claims that he and his men have not been as far east as the Ephel Dúath, then I feel we should take him at his word (that is, if anyone of his generation has done so, it was without his knowledge).

Aragorn does seem to indicate that he has been in the Morgul Vale, at least, while searching for Gollum; but the Morgul Vale is still outside of Mordor proper (it appears to be on the western side of the pass), and Aragorn may not even have been that deep into it.

O.K. I do conceede here. Thinking about it more deeply - Faramir himself is quite young (36) so he has been of age just for 15 years. But not all of his men are necessary "younger men". The "old reports" he is speaking about he has to know by heart as a captain in his location and he has to know the maps and entrie points to Mordor as part of his duty. As he does not know Frodo at all this all is top secret intel he is not in position to share with a stranger. The info he gives Frodo warning him about the path Frodo himself has told him about is as much as he can share or even slightly more than he actually should.
And Aragon has been alive and traveling while Sauron has still been disguising himself deep in Barad Dur trying not to attach any attention to himslef as yet so that Aragorn was propably able to be in Mordor proper himself before it became too dangerous to do so. So were propably some of Faramir's older men.

As such I am convinced Faramir has enough info and resources to know how to get into Mordor and how to travel there, he has access to older people who had been there and could serve as a guide - he knows propably also about old Gondorian hideouts and roads therein. Had Boromir not fallen, he would be more free to do and move about as he wanted as Boromir always shielded him from their father. Also Denethor was less likely to have fallen into despair had Boromir still been alive. So still no prof the quest was doomed to fail had Saruman not betrayed them. The quest would have other dangers and difficulties, but those would have been not less interesting imho.

EDIT: Actually Faramir could be lying to Frodo and be completely justified to do so. He might be protecting Gondorian spies currently on missions in Mordor for the eventuality Frodo is captured or the info can be passed to the enemy by Gollum. Protecting your own people by pretending Gondorians do not dare to go into Mordor is completely morally justified.
 
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You treat Providence as if it's something that has to react to or override choices. However, in the Ainulindalë, Melkor is told by Ilúvatar, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." Thus, Providence already incorporates choices, and even works itself out THROUGH people's choices!

And yet, choices clearly do matter, and people are responsible for them.

‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.’
But Mandos said: ‘And yet remain evil.'


-----

This, then, is how I read the riddle. Providence will ensure that the best outcome occurs, even if particular individuals do not feel that it is the best outcome for them, personally. In this context, discussion of "what ifs" is retrospective, and merely helps us to see that, "Things might have been different, but they could not have been better."

However, people are still responsible for the choices they make (which Providence will use toward achieving the final outcome). In this context, discussion of "what ifs" is useful for deciding future action, as characters are not responsible for knowing the entire Providencial plan; only for whether their own choices were right or wrong based on what information they did have. (e.g. the earlier quote, where Mandos still holds Feanor to blame, even though good would come from his actions, too.)

Hi JJ48,

It seems to me, that Providence, in TLOTR, reacts to choices, but I don't think it overrides choices? Providence seems to work mostly through 'chance, if chance you call it'.

Gollum loses the Ring under the Misty Mountains, and Bilbo finds it. Gildor Inglorien and his band of Elves show up just as a Black Rider is dangerously close to finding Frodo. Tom Bombadil happens to be wending his way back up the Withywindle for the last time that year, just as the Hobbits are attacked by Old Man Willow. Gandalf chances to meet Radagast sitting on the side of the Greenway, so heads to Isengard and discovers that Saruman is a traitor.

I can think of only one instance when 'Providence' directly influences choice. That is Boromir and Faramir's Divine Dream. Some of Frodo's dreams may be Providentially inspired, but they do not seem to be interpreted well by him.

Elrond, Gandalf, (and probably Galadriel - possibly Cirdan) seem to know enough about 'Providence' to try to deduce it's patterns and shape their decisions and actions accordingly, but I don't think this is Providence directly influencing their decisions.

Providence can act directly (mostly through the mechanism of Eagles - but sometimes through Dreams), but only the Divine Dream seems to me to be a direct influence on individual decisions.

So, I don't think that Providence overrides choices. Providence rarely seems to influence choices at all. Instead, Providence seems most often to take whatever choices people make, and then arrange chance events so that regardless of those choices, (Frodo should have left Bag End earlier. Gandalf should not have galloped off to Isengard leaving only a note with Barliman to inform Frodo.) things still work out.

The decisions are made by the actors. Providence just ensures that good decisions made for evil ends tend to not work so well due to 'chance', and bad decisions made for good ends often turn out fine due to 'luck'.

However, the question of how important are the decisions, vs. the power of Providence to 'correct' decisions through chance is interesting, and, I think, unresolved. (Unresolved in TLOTR. There is more explanation in The Legendarium, which might come closer to resolving it. But, as you know, I do not tend to rely on Legendarium material when interpreting TLOTR.)

I also think it curious that the one direct intervention to influence a decision - the Divine Dream - is not more important in the story.

In any event, I think when trying to construct alternative LOTR histories (what ifs) it is unreasonable to conjecture alternatives without taking account of Providence as one of the actors. It is very difficult to project Providence into alternative scenarios, but Providence is a very powerful actor in TLOTR, and scenarios that do not take account of Providence are likely flawed.
 
In any event, I think when trying to construct alternative LOTR histories (what ifs) it is unreasonable to conjecture alternatives without taking account of Providence as one of the actors. It is very difficult to project Providence into alternative scenarios, but Providence is a very powerful actor in TLOTR, and scenarios that do not take account of Providence are likely flawed.

I do concur. There were plenty of ways for the quest to succeed even if Saruman had not betrayed them.
 
Aragorn has been to Morgul Vale very recently ("There is little need to tell of them,' said Aragorn. `If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have") and so could have any Gondorian before him, as Mordor showing of its might and consolidationg its armies is a very recent thing. Gondor has been tasked with keeping watch over Mordor (one of its main tasks for which it has been established) so how can you can make me believe Faramir being a soldier and commander tasked with holding this border never crossed it? Makes no sense at all. More I would believe Faramir having to keep Gondorian entry points (which there have to be) into Mordor a state secret.

Morgul Vale is not inside Mordor. It is guarded on both ends by Minas Morgul and the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and is where are the stairs of Cirith Ungol. Faramir is already transgressing the law of Gondor by letting Frodo and Sam go, not bringing them to Denethor. Given his understanding of the importance of Frodo's mission, he would certainly let him know of any safer way in.
 
Morgul Vale is not inside Mordor. It is guarded on both ends by Minas Morgul and the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and is where are the stairs of Cirith Ungol. Faramir is already transgressing the law of Gondor by letting Frodo and Sam go, not bringing them to Denethor. Given his understanding of the importance of Frodo's mission, he would certainly let him know of any safer way in.

Faramir might risk losing his own life, but not betraying Gondor nor his people to an unknown stranger who is very likely to fall into enemy's hand (which he actually does), be tortured and give away - even if involuntary - Gondor's secrets to the enemy. Faramir would never risk that.
 
Faramir himself claims to have never been that way.

‘We of Gondor do not ever pass east of the Road in these days, and none of us younger men has ever done so, nor has any of us set foot upon the Mountains of Shadow. Of them we know only old report and the rumour of bygone days. But there is some dark terror that dwells in the passes above Minas Morgul. If Cirith Ungol is named, old men and masters of lore will blanch and fall silent.'

Given Faramir's character, I could see him declining to speak on something he felt was a state secret, but I don't think he would outright lie. If he claims that he and his men have not been as far east as the Ephel Dúath, then I feel we should take him at his word (that is, if anyone of his generation has done so, it was without his knowledge).



I doubt that the men of Gondor have been in Mordor since Sauron returned, so the word young is relative. I doubt even Denethor had been - he would have been a boy when Sauron returned. If that generation had been vigilant they might have prevented Sauron's return.
 
I doubt that the men of Gondor have been in Mordor since Sauron returned, so the word young is relative. I doubt even Denethor had been - he would have been a boy when Sauron returned. If that generation had been vigilant they might have prevented Sauron's return.
Denethor was about 7 when Sauron returned. And this event was missed in Gondor at first. Which has been the point. I higly doubt Sauron has been able to make his borders watertight in an instant. He also did not want to attract Gondor's attention before he is ready. Heaving Gondorians suddenly unable to enter Mordor would have alerted them. I think at least for the first 20-30 years he would suffer some them to cross the borders occasionally before making their disappearance look like work of random orc bands.
And how do you prevent a spirit fromreturning? One can keep out orcs maybe, but neither Sauron nor the Nazgul.
 
According to Appendix B, Denethor was born in 2930. Sauron was booted from Dol Guldur in 2941. Sauron declared himself and began rebuilding Barad-dur in 2951.

Denethor was 11 or so when Sauron first returned to Mordor, but he was 21 when Sauron declared his return officially and openly. I don't think the men of Gondor were sent into Mordor after that.

So perhaps Denethor did enter at some time before he was 21, though it's hard to believe that even the son of the Steward and a gifted student both of war and other subjects would have been sent on such a mission at such a young age, when it was suspected that Sauron had returned, and the Nazgul already were there.
 
According to Appendix B, Denethor was born in 2930. Sauron was booted from Dol Guldur in 2941. Sauron declared himself and began rebuilding Barad-dur in 2951.

Denethor was 11 or so when Sauron first returned to Mordor, but he was 21 when Sauron declared his return officially and openly. I don't think the men of Gondor were sent into Mordor after that.

So perhaps Denethor did enter at some time before he was 21, though it's hard to believe that even the son of the Steward and a gifted student both of war and other subjects would have been sent on such a mission at such a young age, when it was suspected that Sauron had returned, and the Nazgul already were there.

Thanks for the data. I have checked the age of Denethor from secondary internrt sources, but not directly from the text which I do not have available at the moment.
But Sauron declared himself to whom? The wizards and Elven Ring bearers? When Sauron began rebuilding Barad Dur most of his resources were bound there, then was exactly the parfect time for some espionage missions. Even if the the precious son and heir of the Steward was prohibited from joining them there were plenty of young men wanting to achieve big things availiable for suchs mission, whioat the time of Faramir were no longer "younger people" anymore, but some still alive and well.

Are you trying to imply that Gondor just abandoned its borders the moment Sauron started rebuilding his Tower? When did he start rebuilding the Black Gate - which also took some time?
 
In Dol Guldur, Sauron was known as the Necromancer. Gandalf found out who is was and told the White Council. Sauron had already sent his underlings to begin to get Mordor ready by the time he went back, since he had figured that the White Council would do something. Thanks to Saruman, they took much longer than they should have, so a good deal of work to prepare Mordor for his return probably had already been completed. But it took another 10 years before he "came out" and lived openly as himself; that's what declaring himself meant, it was saying to the world, I'm Sauron and I'm back, and I'm in the center of my power again. And by then, another 10 years of work had been done. It had been centuries since Gondor had relaxed its watch on Mordor, though they kept patrolling and guarding the border. Were they aware when Sauron returned? Maybe not, but they already knew that work was being done there by evil creatures, and probably that the boundary had been strengthened.

In the time when Denethor was a young man and Thorongil was also in Gondor, their battles were into the South.
 
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Hi Rachel and Odola,

It is possible that you are both drastically under-estimating the length of time since people from Gondor last scouted into Mordor.

In Appendix B, it states, "1640 (Third Age) King Tarondor removes the King's house to Minas Anor, and plants a seedling of the White Tree. Osgiliath begins to fall into ruin. Mordor is left unguarded."

So, the guard on Mordor lapsed 1,378 years before the Council of Elrond.

The Witch King vanishes from the North in 1975, but re-appears in Mordor in 1980 and there gathers the Nazgul. The Nazgul issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil in 2000. Minas Ithil falls in 2002.

I would guess that from at least 1980 or shortly thereafter, it has not been possible for Gondorians to scout within Mordor. Once the Witch King, and the other Nazgul established themselves in Mordor, their presence and that of orcs would have been enough to make scouting within Mordor extremely difficult if not impossible.
 
Thanks Flammifer - that's more what I had in mind - the work of rebuilding it had been going on for centuries (actually more than 1000 years. Since this began with the idea of Faramir knowing ways into Mordor besides Cirith Ungol, that seemed absurd to me.
 
Hi Rachel and Odola,

It is possible that you are both drastically under-estimating the length of time since people from Gondor last scouted into Mordor.

In Appendix B, it states, "1640 (Third Age) King Tarondor removes the King's house to Minas Anor, and plants a seedling of the White Tree. Osgiliath begins to fall into ruin. Mordor is left unguarded."

So, the guard on Mordor lapsed 1,378 years before the Council of Elrond.

The Witch King vanishes from the North in 1975, but re-appears in Mordor in 1980 and there gathers the Nazgul. The Nazgul issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil in 2000. Minas Ithil falls in 2002.

I would guess that from at least 1980 or shortly thereafter, it has not been possible for Gondorians to scout within Mordor. Once the Witch King, and the other Nazgul established themselves in Mordor, their presence and that of orcs would have been enough to make scouting within Mordor extremely difficult if not impossible.

There is always a way to scout a neigbouring country. Borders are not easy to keep watertight even with high walls build around them. Ithilien was an important province and was divided form the Mountain of Shadow by a mere road. Also even if Mordor has been if doomed to lie fallow it still was the fastest road to the lands laying behing it, so traders - merchants and smugglers would be using it in Sauron's absence. Without millions of orcs to patrol it and quite mighty spells not not preventanble for spies to have come in. We do not see millions of orcs at the border when Frodo and Sam go in, only a few hunderts. And the Cirith Ungol orcs we do hear speaking about the intrusion of the hobbits as that of a "Tark spy" - an occurance to be expected and not as not something unheard of so it has to have happened from time to time.

And Flammifer - if Minas Ithil falls in 2002 where do the Gondorians defending it get their supplies from if there was no entry since 1980?
A few Nazgul cannot shut the whole border down. Even today using satelites and drones it is not duable. As such Faramir restricting the lacking of actual experience of going into Mordor to "younger people" makes sense. And it also can be what he wants the enemy to think given he cannot be sure Frodo is not a spy of the enemy or soon be captured by him and having any valuable information forced out from him by torture or magic or mind reading. Only when Sauron got his war machinery going he gained the necessary resources to patrol the border. And orcs are not the most realiable gate keepers anyway. I am sure most could be bribed anyday. So I am sure there are at least several Gondorian spies in Mordor during this very conversation whose entry points back home cannot be sacrificed by disclosing them to Frodo.
 
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Minas Ithil is outside of Mordor, not inside it. So, they could easily get supplies from Ithilien and Osgiliath and the rest of Gondor. (Up until the time that they were besieged.)

In 2475, the attacks on Gondor are renewed, Osgiliath is ruined, and it's stone bridge broken. (Though presumably replaced, perhaps by a wooden bridge, so Boromir, Faramir and their men could defend it until it was cut down behind them.) In 2901, most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it owing to the attacks of Uruks of Mordor. The secret refuge of Henneth Annum is built.

So, we have evidence that there are plenty of Orcs in Mordor long before Sauron returns there.

The Nazgul are building Sauron's power back up in Mordor from at least 1980. Frodo and Sam do see thousands and thousands of Orcs in Mordor even though many have been marched off to attack Minas Tirith. Even so, they did still see plenty of Orc guards. As they escaped the tower of Cirith Ungol, they had to drop over the side of the road to avoid a host of mounted and infantry Orcs racing to see what had caused the alarm at the tower, not to mention a flying Nazgul swooping in to investigate. The path they take through the Ephel Duath, "was used by patrols or messengers going swiftly to lesser posts and strongholds north-away, between Cirith Ungol and the narrows of Isenmouth." So there were plenty of defences, and plenty of Orcs, in normal times, defending Mordor all along the Mts. of Shadow.

Of the defences of Mordor, the narrator says, "Yet armies he had. As far as their eyes could reach (looking out from the top of the Morgai), along the skirts of the Morgai and away southward, there were camps, some of tents, some ordered like small towns. One of the largest of these was right below them. Barely a mile out into the plain it clustered like some huge nest of insects, with straight dreary streets of huts and long low drab buildings. About it the ground was busy with folk going to and fro; a wide road ran from it south-east to join the Morgul-way, and along it many lines of small black shapes were hurrying."

So, despite Sauron having sent a vast army out of Mordor, he still has thousands upon thousands of subjects within Mordor.

The borders of Mordor are also equipped with scouts and trackers, to detect and hunt down any spies or intruders who manage to get in. An Orc soldier and a tracker almost manage to track down Frodo and Sam, who are only saved, Providentially, as the Orcs quarreled and the tracker shot the soldier and ran off.

Mordor is a very difficult place for a spy to penetrate. I doubt that Gondor has managed much scouting of it for hundreds of years. I also do not think that Mordor has lain fallow. Not since the Nazgul re-occupied it in 1980. It has been highly developed with mines, factories, towns, forts, barracks, outposts and agriculture run by slave laborers off to the south. I don't think merchants and smugglers are going to be wandering through Mordor unless they belong to Sauron.
 
There’s a significant difference between expected occurrence and definitely has happened.

Sending in spies is the sort of thing the enemy does, so they expect to have to detect and repel spies. This doesn’t mean that Gondor deploys spies in enemy territory, even when they employ guerrilla tactics.
 
Keep in mind also that by the time of the text, Gondor's border is effectively the Anduin. Sauron's forces hold most, if not all, of the eastern shore, and apparently freely use the road to move troops up from the south. Faramir and his troops are already essentially behind enemy lines, so sending spies into Mordor proper wouldn't be sending them just across the border, but rather deep into the heart of enemy territory.

As for Faramir lying to Frodo, I utterly reject the idea. For one thing, Faramir claims that he would not even snare an orc with a falsehood, so regardless of whether a modern viewer sees lying for a good cause as justified, I doubt Faramir would. Moreover, even if we assume that Faramir would allow himself to lie if necessary for a good cause, that wouldn't even apply here as there's no reason for him to do so! Faramir himself brought up the claim that folks from Gondor don't enter Mordor. If he were merely worried about Frodo and Sam being spies (or being tortured into giving up information), why even mention it in the first place? It's unlikely that anyone in Mordor who suspected Gondor of sending spies would say, "Oh, one captain said there's none, so we may as well stop guarding our borders altogether!" so why intentionally lie when it's thoroughly unnecessary and unproductive to do so?
 
Keep in mind also that by the time of the text, Gondor's border is effectively the Anduin. Sauron's forces hold most, if not all, of the eastern shore, and apparently freely use the road to move troops up from the south. Faramir and his troops are already essentially behind enemy lines, so sending spies into Mordor proper wouldn't be sending them just across the border, but rather deep into the heart of enemy territory.

As for Faramir lying to Frodo, I utterly reject the idea. For one thing, Faramir claims that he would not even snare an orc with a falsehood, so regardless of whether a modern viewer sees lying for a good cause as justified, I doubt Faramir would. Moreover, even if we assume that Faramir would allow himself to lie if necessary for a good cause, that wouldn't even apply here as there's no reason for him to do so! Faramir himself brought up the claim that folks from Gondor don't enter Mordor. If he were merely worried about Frodo and Sam being spies (or being tortured into giving up information), why even mention it in the first place? It's unlikely that anyone in Mordor who suspected Gondor of sending spies would say, "Oh, one captain said there's none, so we may as well stop guarding our borders altogether!" so why intentionally lie when it's thoroughly unnecessary and unproductive to do so?
Frodos position as a stanger folowed by a obvously corrupted being is very

There’s a significant difference between expected occurrence and definitely has happened.

Sending in spies is the sort of thing the enemy does, so they expect to have to detect and repel spies. This doesn’t mean that Gondor deploys spies in enemy territory, even when they employ guerrilla tactics.

Exactly. It is expected because is has to be done! It is a given in any warfare. Gondor not doing it is againt any basic law of warfare and as such totaly unconvicing.

As seen by the orcs quarreling during their duty they are not very difficult neither to fight nor to avoid. And probably to bribe also.

Finrod and Beren clothing themselves as orc - like later Sam and Frodo - and pretending to be orcs is a lie also. This is totally expected. As it is said - war is deceit. When Aragorn pretends to Sauron to have claimed the ring - this is a lie also.

In his converation Faramir has to assume Frodo could be an enemy's spy aimed to find Gondor entries into Mordor and he deliberately tries to pretend to be blind and clueless. But he is giving himself away when he recognises Cirith Ungol in a split second just by the vague description Frodo gives him. It is clear form that that Faramir really knows this area of Mordor like his back pocket.
 
Frodos position as a stanger folowed by a obvously corrupted being is very



Exactly. It is expected because is has to be done! It is a given in any warfare. Gondor not doing it is againt any basic law of warfare and as such totaly unconvicing.

As seen by the orcs quarreling during their duty they are not very difficult neither to fight nor to avoid. And probably to bribe also.

Finrod and Beren clothing themselves as orc - like later Sam and Frodo - and pretending to be orcs is a lie also. This is totally expected. As it is said - war is deceit. When Aragorn pretends to Sauron to have claimed the ring - this is a lie also.

In his converation Faramir has to assume Frodo could be an enemy's spy aimed to find Gondor entries into Mordor and he deliberately tries to pretend to be blind and clueless. But he is giving himself away when he recognises Cirith Ungol in a split second just by the vague description Frodo gives him. It is clear form that that Faramir really knows this area of Mordor like his back pocket.
I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.
 
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