Worldbuilding in Valinor

MithLuin

MithLuin

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This thread is meant as a catch-all place for discussions of some of the culture and locations that we're creating in Valinor in the 2nd and 3rd seasons. After all, it's all well and good to say that the Noldor live in 'Tirion' - and we know it's a gleaming white city on a hill, the model for the later Gondolin.

But what is there, actually? What is Finwë's palace like? Is there a central square - what other buildings are located in this prominent place? How 'open' is it - are there fountains or obelisks or something? What is the use/purpose of the Tower of Ingwë and what characters are associated with it? Are there marketplaces...and do the Noldor use money? Or is this all on the barter system with so much surplus that people just give away fancy gifts for no reason all the time anyway? Is there a wall around the city? Does anyone live on the 'outskirts'? Where is Aulë's forge in relationship to Tirion - within sight, a day's journey away, on the other side of Valinor? Etc. How often do the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri visit one another? What is the location of Formenos in relationship to Tirion, and did it exist before Fëanor's banishment there? What types of ceremonies or social/artistic gatherings do the Noldor have, and is there space in the city specifically for those purposes? We know the Noldor are big craftsmen - what arts do they practice (besides gem making)? Are these private or communal workshops, and are there guilds? Are their shops to sell the finished project attached, or is everything 'commissioned'?

As you go through the script outlines, you'll see we've made some allusions to some of these things. For instance, we've given Finwë a courtroom with a gallery. We've given Ingwë's palace in Valmar open terraced porches. Etc. But those are broad strokes, and it would likely help the project if people were to put forward suggestions of some of the specific cultural and design issues needed to do some good worldbuilding.

So, any and all suggestions for worldbuilding in Valinor can go here! Depending on schedule, we may have the opportunity for a 'live' discussion of some of these ideas next month if folks are interested (not with the Execs; I just mean 'talking amongst ourselves').
 
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Do you own Pictures by JRRT?

I think there are a lot of beautiful illustrations by JRRT which could give us some hint about how he intended Elven and Valarin Architecture to look like...
for example his pictures House in the North (38), Tanaqui (43), fairy coast (44), Gondolin (58), but even man in the moon (45)...

there are many other illustrations by JRRT that we could draw from as well even if they do not explicitly show elven architecture...

for example there are illustrations by many great artists that depict Tirion or Gondolin, but most goe all for the white-marble and fountains look...

while there is some evidence for that in Tolkien#s writings and illustrations he does actually describe some elven buildings as cottages... so i think there should be a rural/gardening element to Elven Architecture too... I#d like to see gardens, small fences, trees... a bit like JRRTs Illustrations of the Gipsy Green (22, 23), barnt Green Cottage (18), Phoenix farn (15), Warwick (14), eastbury (12), spring (3), new Lodge (28), me & my house (64), and houses of the raft elves (124)... there still would be enough room for the white marble/fountain Theme (33), Tanaqui, Oxford (63), (74),

I also could imagine something like a villa rustica Style of Elven-Manor in Valinor, maybe a bit like the Roverandom House (73) and some of JRRTs illustrations for Rivendell (104) (108).

There should also be coastal cave-dwellings for the Falmari/Solosimpi (like water, wind & Sand (42)?) and
Gardens of the Merking (76) could be an inspiration for Valarin designs, not only for Osses/Ulmos people.

Tolkien also designed a lot of ornaments and sigils (183), (184), (186), (188), (189), (190),(191), (192) that could be used in both architecture and clothing/fashion

he even drew a design for a numenorean Carpet (187)...
 
What is Finwë's palace like? Is there a central square - what other buildings are located in this prominent place? How 'open' is it - are there fountains or obelisks or something? What is the use/purpose of the Tower of Ingwë and what characters are associated with it?
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well Gondolin for example id described quite in detail...
http://www.councilofelrond.com/albums/Maps/Map_of_Gondolin.jpg

there#s a king#s square and there are marketplaces (there are Elvish Words for trader and bartering so they had some sort of economy) ... Gondolin could be a good example of how a Noldo major city could be imagined.
 
Elvish Economy

I realize that Tolkien did not devote a lot of effort to developing the economic landscape of his imaginary realms. Not that he didn't mention it, but the handful of references leave a lot to the imagination (which was surely the point).

When Frodo goes to Bree, he needs to use coin money to pay for things. So, certainly by the late Third Age, monetary systems are in place. Also, it seems unlikely that that was anything new, so we'd expect Arnor and Gondor, and probably Numenor as well to have minted coins. Smaug's treasure likewise includes a lot of gold coins (though not, of course, Peter Jackson levels of rivers of gold!)

But did they have money in Valinor? Were the elves making coins? And if so....why? I would think that coins would be useful for cross-cultural trade (ie, elves, dwarves and Men [or hobbits]). But...what would be their motivation for making coins in a paradise where everyone has more than they need, in abundance, and....are the kings of the elves taxing their people? There is a Qenya word for 'barter' yes...but not one for 'bank' (or rather, only 'bank of a river.')

Barter economies existed before currency, and it would make sense to show a barter economy in Valinor. But are there any poor elves? Are there any 'lazy' elves who do not work? [Or do the Noldor consider the Teleri to be this, discounting their efforts as not organized enough?] Do people give away food and gems and 'the work of their hands' as gifts, or do they barter what they've made for something others have made? Does everyone just chip in with the necessary work of building a city, like a massive barn raising? How are people compensated for their efforts, and how does the 'royal family' distinguish itself from other ordinary elves? Are they....wealthy? Do they dress differently? Or are they just like everyone else but get deferred to in official councils and the like?

I know we want a vibe of generosity and abundance. But I don't want it to look ridiculous, so there needs to be some underlying rules of how it works. Is this some sort of hippie commune? Or, if that has too many unwanted associations, is this some sort of Shaker Village? (Ref: https://shakervillageky.org/history-and-restoration/ ) We know the Noldor are artisans, and they're busy making things all the time. So....how are these items distributed? We know Tirion is a city on a hill. Are there elves working farmland in other areas bringing their produce into the city? Or does every house have a small garden and chickens with goats and cattle roaming the street? We know they make lembas, so we need grain fields somewhere.

While we aren't going to explicitly inform the audience of how the economy works, we are going to have to come up with some ideas of what this looks like, to inform our choices of how we depict, say, a marketplace in Tirion.
 
...and then, whatever idyllic peace-of-Valinor economic system we come up with, has to be corrupted as the Noldor become proud and militant and love too well the work of their hands, etc etc.

So we need not only the ideal, but what it will look like when the people go off kilter and start to twist that ideal. Later Tirion should appear different from early Tirion, and not just because they've invented heraldry.
 
there are no genuine elvish words for coins.. mirian, tharni, castar are merely words for materials and divisions.. if there was one culture i'd have in mind for the invention of a monetary system it would be the dwarves.

considering elvish economy... it's clear that elves knew traders,herders and farmers... so there must have been some kind of economy that supported all of the craftsmen,poets and mariners..

in a way i imagine that lots of elves love nature si they love animals and plants and love to herd,tame and cultivate.as valinor is plentyful bad harvests and anumal dusease would be unknown... cinsiderung
 
...considering this elves would have an economy of overproduction achieved by voluntary work that would be enough to support poets,craftsmen,nobles and lazygoers... in a way like a marxist utopy despite that they still trade their products... works of craft and lifestocks... this would be dufferent in middle-earth and the nildir woyld have to struggle with that difference..
 
Subsistence-economy don't need much money. Most needs are covered by the family's own production. Some individuals might specialize in crafts, so person A makes pots, and person B makes antler-objects like combs and spoons. They might trade/barter, or they give the objects as gifts to each other, to strengthen social bonds.
 
I think there might be three things at work here:

1) The fertility of the Blessed Realm makes the labor-intensity of farming relatively low, and high levels of natural understanding reduces labor requirements for production. Also, keep in mind that the elves are capable of packing high amounts of nutrition into small amounts of food.

2) The elves require less than we do. They do not need to put in as much work for energy production. They can see in much less light, and require no fuel simply for heat. One might even suggest that beyond a very small amount needed for sustenance, they only eat because they want to.

3) Elves don't really need sleep the same way we do.

That means that each individual is significantly more productive while consuming less than in a human civilization.

I've seen estimates that a modern family of four requires two acres of land to be self-sufficient. That's food (including meat) and power (heat included). I'd be willing to suggest that a similar-sized family of elves could be self-sustaining on far less, probably a half-acre (Low energy requirement and lower need for high-acreage grains). In that regard, the less "affluent" (probably the less crafty) residents of Tirion might have public parks with community gardens they use for sustenance. Those in the middle would have a yard of their own, while the aristocracy (and the workshops they run) might produce valuable enough pieces of craft to exchange for sustenance.
 
i can't back it up with a quote but i always had in mind that the entire valley outside of gondolin was a huge agricultural landscape, much like minas tirith's pelennor...
 
That is certainly how Ted Nasmith depicts it:
imagenes_nasmith_3_6.jpg
 
i also think the cultural landscapes of the valar (lorien,pastures of yavanna,nessas meadows,neverfading lawns,plains of valinor,gardens of vana) would provide nutrition.after all... how many larger cities are there in valinor.. valmar,tirion,alqualonde,formenos,ilmarin/taniquetil... only five!
 
Relative Distance (aka - it's easier to write a story if you're working from a map!)

How close are things in Valinor? I'm not (too) worried about travel time - people can mostly be 'arriving' and 'departing' scenes, rather than spending much time on the road, unless they are travelling together for a scene. And with the sweeping timescale....it really makes (almost) no difference.

But....are these places close enough to see each other? I assume the peak of Taniquetal is visible from practically everywhere in Valinor (okay, so not Ungoliant's lair, and maybe not the shores by Alqualondë, but everywhere else.) The Light of the Trees is likewise visible in most places, but how far away can you see the actual Trees?

Times when this will matter, based on current script outlines: In Episode 8, an elf standing in the palace of Ingwë looking out can see activity in the Mahanaxar. So, how close is the Ring of Doom to the Gates of Valmar? RIGHT there, a little bit down the road, a day's journey, or....?

In the final episode of the 1st season, most of the elves will be up on Taniquetal for the feast, and thus won't notice Melkor and Ungoliant sneaking up on the Trees. But once they *do* notice, how long does it take the crowd of elves and Maiar and Valar to rush down to Ezellohar and see the damage to the Trees? Is Ungoliant scuttling away a moment before, or is there, again, a delay?

What, if anything, can be seen from Formenos? It is just in the empty wilderness of Valinor, or....?

Tirion is built on the unnamed-on-screen Hill of Túna in the Calacirya looking out to the Sea and back to the Trees. Is it....closer to one side than the other? Can you see Alqualondë from the Tower of Ingwë?

What is the relative orientation of Valmar and Taniquetal?

Do the Valar have their own homes scattered throughout Valinor, or do they have their 'primary' homes in Valmar?
 
i once triedto map and lolcate the mentioned places and regions on a map... aman seems to be a huge continent, but the area important for the stories is largely the northeastern part, about the longitude of muddle-europe or the british isles... not so much the equatorial region
 
Yes, Tolkien changed his mind on this stuff over time. I think we should avoid contradicting the published Silmarillion when possible, unless there is a good reason to rely on another account. HoME IV is quite useful, but still doesn't answer all of the questions I have.

That is a cool map! Can you by any chance upload a larger copy of it?
 
It's kind of hard to judge the distances, i'd say if Tol Eressea's climate was similar to southern England Formenos was no further north than northern britain, say north scotland, not more than a 1000 kilometers. I'd also judge that the migration from the Bay of Eldamar to northwestern Beleriand may be similar to a distance from say New Foundland to Northern Britain via an imaginary Bridge from Greenland, maybe 4000-5000 kilometers. But that's just a guess, since we don't know the exact distance from Valinor to Middle-Earth... judging by the - very very rough - Ambarkanta Sketches it must have been at last 900 miles air lane.I don't know if that's realistic... it seems too short to me.
 
i took a look at the timeline at tolkien gateway.. it seems the elven migration from cuivienen to aman took about 200 years.the feanorias with the stolen swanships needed 19 years to reach beleriand and the noldor crossing the helcaraxe seem to have needed 38 years to do so... does anyone of youhave thoughts on this and may help to settle my confusion on this?
 
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Haerangil said:
i took a look at the timeline at tolkien gateway.. it seems the elven migration from cuivienen to aman took about 200 years.the feanorias with the stolen swanships needed 19 years to reach beleriand and the noldor crossing the helcaraxe seem to have needed 38 years to do so... does anyone of youhave thoughts on this and may help to settle my confusion on this?
Click to expand...
Ugh... I hadn't even considered the time gaps... how on earth are we going to convey that on screen?
 
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