Session 3.12 - S3 Ep 7: The Doom of Mandos

Should Finarfin be so okay with his children continuing? Or should his repentance include trying to convince his brother(s) and children to come back with him, as well? If so, the division of Finarfin from his children becomes the first fruit, as it were, of the Doom.

And maybe some of his sons might have come back, had not the Doom got their hackles raised? "I'm not going to abase myself before some intoning tyrants!" Or something. Did we show any of the sons of Finarfin being susceptible to the lies of Morgoth?
 
We have not previously given the sons of Finarfin speaking parts, actually. We introduced Galadriel in Season 2, and she had brothers, but I don't think they ever said anything. We did show Finrod and Amarie together at the feast of reconciliation, so he may have had some dialogue there, but for the most part they are new characters this season who did a good job staying out of the family drama.
 
Okay. On the plus side, that means they're blank slates we can (mostly) use as the plot requires here. On the minus, it would be weird to make these formerly silent characters suddenly super vocal in repeating the deceits of Melkor.

But I can't see Finarfin turning back himself while commissioning -- or tacitly giving permission -- for his sons and daughter to continue. I think he'd try to convince them to turn back, too, and his return has to be filled with sorrow. He knows in his heart it's the right thing to do, but it separates him from his brother(s) and his children. They might even feel as if he has abandoned or betrayed them.
 
Marielle said:
Okay. On the plus side, that means they're blank slates we can (mostly) use as the plot requires here. On the minus, it would be weird to make these formerly silent characters suddenly super vocal in repeating the deceits of Melkor.

But I can't see Finarfin turning back himself while commissioning -- or tacitly giving permission -- for his sons and daughter to continue. I think he'd try to convince them to turn back, too, and his return has to be filled with sorrow. He knows in his heart it's the right thing to do, but it separates him from his brother(s) and his children. They might even feel as if he has abandoned or betrayed them.
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Maybe we should have given them speaking parts in Season 2.
 
Marielle said:
Okay. On the plus side, that means they're blank slates we can (mostly) use as the plot requires here. On the minus, it would be weird to make these formerly silent characters suddenly super vocal in repeating the deceits of Melkor.

But I can't see Finarfin turning back himself while commissioning -- or tacitly giving permission -- for his sons and daughter to continue. I think he'd try to convince them to turn back, too, and his return has to be filled with sorrow. He knows in his heart it's the right thing to do, but it separates him from his brother(s) and his children. They might even feel as if he has abandoned or betrayed them.
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Yeah my sketch above was not meant to be complete, so for example, it would need a dialogue where Finarfin says they are all returning and Finrod finds that impossible to accept.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Maybe we should have given them speaking parts in Season 2.
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NO. There are way too many Noldor to keep straight in Season 2 anyway, and they literally do nothing of import. Finrod's formal 'introduction' is *now,* in this Season, and this episode is where he assumes leadership from his father. We have a scene between Finarfin and his wife and children in Episode 1, leading up to the Oath, so certainly we could have the sons express their opinions there.

This is not much different from the situation with Mablung, who was there in Season 2, but certainly didn't do anything independently of Celeborn + Beleg + Mablung, and likely had very few speaking lines....and now, in Episode 4 of Season 3, we have an entire episode of him interacting with dwarves and brokering a peace accord. So, while the audience has certainly seen him as a background character, this is the first time they get to know him at all.

Same with the sons of Finarfin - they've been there, but the focus has been on their sister, Galadriel. Now, we are getting to know them as more than background characters. First Finrod with the leadership, and then Aegnor when he has his doomed love affair with Andreth. All we have to do is make sure we don't blatantly contradict their later characterizations while they are background characters.
 
I tend to agree. It would weaken the drama of the previous season, I think, if every other line in support or opposition to Feanor or Melkor had to be said by a different elf, just to make sure everyone's opinions were on the record. I think we can, retroactively, imagine Finarfin's sons in whichever "camps", as it were -- standing in the background either frowning or nodding thoughtfully -- as we like and considering that the set-up for their positions here.

Their relative obscurity could allow us to reintroduce a theme from last season: the good and bad reasons for wanting to return to Middle Earth. Galadriel, it seems, wants to go for mostly sketchy reasons, but Aegnor in particular could sense that his fate lies across the sea.

Finrod is going to be the hard one. Yes, he leads his father's people, but his father's people have looked to Fingolfin as their acting king for years now, and unless we depict him as mistrusting Fingolfin's impulsiveness, or something, "needing to stay to lead" seems... insufficient? The Valar have clearly condemned the exodus, and his father, mother, and beloved are all staying behind. We could have him long for Middle Earth, too. And again, have a sense his destiny is there. Or perhaps is persuaded by the words of Galadriel? Maybe his fate is why she later on demurs to ever give advice... or one reason, anyway.
 
Marielle said:
Or perhaps is persuaded by the words of Galadriel?
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Interesting idea!

I think that even if the people of Finarfin’s house have looked to Fingolfin as their king, the Noldor seem to have a quite strong family oriented hierarchy in which a son assumes authority automatically before a brother. Fingolfin has authority as king of course but the house of Finarfin has a separate system and is a discrete unit.
 
Haakon said:
I think that even if the people of Finarfin’s house have looked to Fingolfin as their king, the Noldor seem to have a quite strong family oriented hierarchy in which a son assumes authority automatically before a brother. Fingolfin has authority as king of course but the house of Finarfin has a separate system and is a discrete unit.
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Probably true, but that alone isn't enough reason for Finrod to go if we plan on depicting Galadriel and Aegnor as willing/eager to go on -- yes, Finrod is the heir, but if Fingolfin could assume authority while both his father and brother were alive but absent, so should Aegnor or Galadriel.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that he is persuaded to go, more than just a sense of duty. Duty, after all, would also be pulling strongly in the opposite direction.
 
I think it has to be a combination. His siblings want to go and probably a number of others along with them. Galadriel could appeal to his desire to see Middle-earth, and Finarfin, failing to convince all of his people to return, appeals to his sense of duty.
 
Yes, Finrod's actions here are...interesting. Surely if anyone were to return with Finarfin it would be Finrod? He was somewhere around Turgon levels of reluctance to go, but still left.

At some point, we are likely going to show a flashback to his farewell with Amarië. That could be here. In the flashback, he could give her his reasons for wanting to go to Middle Earth. If we don't do it here, it's going to look like it came out of nowhere when we do it at the Feast of Reuniting in Season 4.

Finrod is also (likely) the wisest of the Noldor who go to Middle Earth. He's...a philosopher, of sorts, eager to learn new things and meet new people, but able to synthesize all of that into his world view. He has some sense of prophecy (not unlike many other elves), but also can pull off the magic-by-force-of-will-and-song trick. Sure, Sauron defeats him, but Sauron is a powerful Maia, and Finrod at least gave him a run for it and didn't cave instantly. It is very difficult to picture Finrod getting mad at anyone, ever - he's a very calm and even-keeled guy who can interact with people who disagree with him without taking it personally. He befriends Men and Dwarves and the Sons of Fëanor and Ulmo - ie, he gets along with *everyone*.

So he has to recognize the Doom of Mandos for what it is, and to recognize that their entire quest to defeat Morgoth in Middle Earth is doomed. So why does he keep going? And how much sense of dread/foreboding/doom/fate does he have about the entire enterprise? Could he be using Ulmo as a model - Ulmo often acts independently of the other Valar, but that does not mean his actions are wrong. So maybe he thinks there's a way to rebel honorably without being guilty of all the things Mandos warned of? I do think we have to hash out what Finrod is thinking, and it has to be nuanced and involved, not just a single reason. He very much could be swayed by someone else - his sister Galadriel or his cousins whom he is close to. But at the end of the day, he's thought this through thoroughly and is not just blithely going along without due consideration.



[As for the brother/son inheritance question, do keep in mind that Fingolfin is going to be recognized as Fëanor's heir, Turgon is going to be Fingon's heir, and Orodreth (who may be a younger brother or possibly a nephew) is going to be Finrod's heir. So, I don't think we have to assume that it's the son rather than the brother who automatically inherits in Noldor culture. I realize that male primogeniture is common enough as an inheritance pattern, but it's not like we don't have plenty of counter examples, even down to Castro naming his brother as his heir in Cuba in this century!

We aren't going to discuss Maedhros' ceding the crown to Fingolfin until next season, but it is quite likely that he pulls a sleight of hand to do that legitimately. He calls Fingolfin 'the oldest here present of the House of Finwë',' potentially recognizing Fingolfin as *Finwë's* heir, thus ignoring Fëanor's claim to the throne of the Noldor (which was never very official, now was it?) So in that sense, it's still a son, not a (half-)brother who inherits, and explains how the entire House of Fëanor is disinherited, even to the point that Celebrimbor is going to have to acknowledge Gil-galad as High King! But it also calls into question how significant age is as seniority in whatever inheritance plan we set up - after all, elves don't have to worry about a younger brother dying of old age, and so a brother or a son or a nephew would all be equally likely to be healthy adults with full faculties. But again, a discussion for another time!]
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Well, somebody’s gotta be the straight man.
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I'm not sure what you mean. I would think Finarfin, reaching the conclusion that the right, just, and moral thing to do would be return to the Valar and beg forgiveness, would counsel his children to do the same. I might not go so far as to say Finrod is defying his father, but I suspect he is definitely acting against his father's wishes and advice in continuing to follow Fingolfin and Feanor.
 
Finarfin has been mostly against the whole rebellion from the start. I am basically in agreement with MithLuin's first post about his motivations and thought process. However I agree with Marielle that he would absolutely try to persuade his children and brother and nephews/niece to stay. He believes they are all doing something wrong and that they are putting themselves needlessly in terrible peril by continuing. He should try to persuade as many Noldor as he can, because he wants to save as many as he can. Yes, they need good leaders – leaders who will lead them out of folly and wickedness! Fingolfin or Finrod is the one who persuades Finarfin that no, at least somebody besides the Fëanorian princes needs to be there to lead those who refuse to turn back. Yet he gives in to this, if at all, only with great sorrow and reluctance.

This will help show to TV viewers that he isn't turning back out of wimpiness. He is bravely facing the wrath of the Valar, and trying very hard to save the rest of his family and people. His moral conviction should appear very strong here. He has continued on until now only because too few of his own followers were willing to go back.

Finrod and Galadriel: Tolkien said both continue not only because they want to stay with their cousins Fingolfin’s children, but because they are both eager for realms to rule in Middle-earth. Also I want to use the excellent and detailed depiction of Galadriel in the Shibboleth of Fëanor, where she is eager to follow Fëanor specifically to thwart his plans in retaliation for the Kinslaying. I don't think she's conflicted about this -- she is one of the greatest of the Noldor, but not among the most wise or mature.

I think Finrod is conflicted – he loves exploring new places and is downright eager to see Middle-earth ... but he never wanted to go there under these circumstances, and in his heart he still accepts the authority of the Valar. He does not want to defy his parents nor the Valar, nor leave behind his wife?/fiance?/lover?. I think that love for his people, and to his cousins, has to be a major part of his decision. We could show him almost giving in to Finarfin’s persuasion... but ultimately being willing to take that Doom upon himself so that he can be there for his people. That is very much in line with his character and even a foreshadowing of his later self-sacrifice. Yet that desire to rule realms of his own is there too -- he isn't flawless.

I see Fingolfin as very conflicted, more so than Finarfin. Whereas Finarfin is more-or-less dragged along as far as he goes solely by not wanting to abandon his children and his people, Fingolfin genuinely wants to go on with the rebellion for its own sake, and honestly thinks they can beat Morgoth... but is also struggling with reluctance or with knowing, deep down, that this is a bad idea. He does not want to reject the authority of the Valar, in fact he backs up his claim to the Kingship by Manwë’s authority. Yet he is hot to avenge his father, bound by his word, and much too proud to go back on his decisions. And underneath it, whether he admits it or not, afraid how he would be judged for his part in the Kinslaying.

(Fingolfin's pride can be a sub-theme here -- a way in which he continues to resemble Feanor even while coming to oppose most of his brother's decisions. I suspect he dies the way he does partly because he was so sure that Morgoth could never break the Siege and that the Noldor (led by himself) would rule Beleriand (albeit under Thingol) basically forever, and it all came crashing down at once when he, perhaps least of all the princes, never expected that to happen. And still pride is the reason he wants to die in glorious single combat with Morgoth, instead of slowly by inches in some hopeless war of attrition. His pride is less selfish and egotistical than the Feanorians', but still a serious flaw.)

I think there could be an interesting discussion between the brothers – Finarfin (gently) insists that you can’t continue in the Flight without also rebelling against the rightful authority of Manwë. Fingolfin has simply rejected Fëanor’s accusing him of hypocrisy... but it’s harder to reject that argument when Finarfin says it. But he’ll come back with the argument that if he gave his word to Manwë to follow Fëanor, then turning back means breaking his word to the Elder King.

Turgon I do not see as reluctant to go. I think he’s just as eager as Fingon.
 
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Turgon may not be actually reluctant, but he does love Tirion very much, and it's hard for him to leave it behind. That doesn't mean he doesn't want to see Middle Earth, it's just...Tirion in Valinor is his home forever, whereas the others seem a bit more willing to strike out and make new homes. [The Fëanoreans have already done this in Formenos.] I do agree that Turgon doesn't become *bitter* about the rebellion until he loses his wife on the Helcaraxë. At that point, he's done with Fëanoreans forever.

The comparison with Finrod is that both he and Turgon have reasons to look back, and a reluctance to leave something behind.
 
Remind me, did Fingolfin break his sword already or is it happening in this episode? (If it's now, it might feel like it is a bit delayed response after the Kinslaying, perhaps, but that could be worked around)

If it's happening now, we have:

1. Fingolfin and Fëanor.
2. While they move on, Finarfin should try to convince his people to return. We could place some of the conversations here, before the Doom, to prepare the viewers as much as possible for the importance of the Doom. (Which arguments should come before?)
3. The Doom.

I find the situation Fingolfin and his people are in very tragic, I must say. He's sworn himself into a position where it's almost impossible to do the right thing according to his set of values. In the end, this is what drives him to make a suicidal attack on Morgoth.
 
Right, Fingolfin 's story doesn't exactly have a happy ending - this is the Silmarillion, after all, and he is a tragic hero.

Fingolfin already broke his sword prior to this episode. The hosts requested that in episode 3, and I want to delay it to maybe episode 5, but definitely well before 7.
 
Ok. But I still think some of the go on/go back discussion should take place before the Doom, as a buildup.
 
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