Session 3.12 - S3 Ep 7: The Doom of Mandos
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Definitely. What I’m getting at is that in this episode we need a buildup to the Doom. We can’t just have the episode begin with Namo appearing, especially after a couple of episodes concentrating on the Sindar. But yes, some of the Noldor will not follow Fëanor anymore. Those who feel that way will probably go to Finarfin who won’t keep his view on things a secret.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
I think we might need to have Finarfin make his resolve before the Doom is announced. Otherwise, it might look like cowardice. I know it's not, but it could easily come across as "Oh, no! The adults are angry! Quick! Come back and look sad but cute!"
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the Doom is his validation that leaving Valinor is wrong?
As I said in the Galadriel thread, she would not be the only person who realizes Feanor started that battle unprovoked. Finarfin and his sons probably figure out the exact same thing, very quickly, and it's probably their first guess as soon as they come upon the aftermath of the battle. And probably many other Noldor will figure this out, too.
Finarfin should start arguing for return now, saying that the whole enterprise is marred with evil and that Feanor doesn't deserve their allegiance. I think many of Fingolfin's host will start to be swayed already, and some will already completely want to return.
I don't get the impression, from Tolkien's texts, that individuals returning to Valinor was viewed as an option. It looks more like the whole host of Fingolfin was engaged in a debate about whether they should continue or turn back, as a group. So that those who already want very much to turn back don't feel that they can, until they convince enough others to go with them, and/or Finarfin goes back with them. But he isn't likely to turn back until it's finally clear he cannot possibly persuade any of his family to go back with him.
The whole situation will be horribly tragic. Families will be torn apart. There are already families who separated at the start of the rebellion, and probably several who are split up between Feanor's and Fingolfin's camps. People will be reluctant to part from those family who still remain together, and this is going to sway their decisions to go on or go back. This problem should come up now, as Fingolfin's host start to debate what to do next. In the end, I think some will turn back who want to go on, and some will go on who want to turn back, only to stay with their family, lovers, or very close friends. Breaking apart families (exemplified by the house of Finwe tearing apart) is a way to heighten the sense of horrible loss and tragedy in the Rebellion, on top of the Kinslaying. It's also a way to get viewers back into the Noldorin point of view, after the Beleriand episodes.
Finarfin should start arguing for return now, saying that the whole enterprise is marred with evil and that Feanor doesn't deserve their allegiance. I think many of Fingolfin's host will start to be swayed already, and some will already completely want to return.
I don't get the impression, from Tolkien's texts, that individuals returning to Valinor was viewed as an option. It looks more like the whole host of Fingolfin was engaged in a debate about whether they should continue or turn back, as a group. So that those who already want very much to turn back don't feel that they can, until they convince enough others to go with them, and/or Finarfin goes back with them. But he isn't likely to turn back until it's finally clear he cannot possibly persuade any of his family to go back with him.
The whole situation will be horribly tragic. Families will be torn apart. There are already families who separated at the start of the rebellion, and probably several who are split up between Feanor's and Fingolfin's camps. People will be reluctant to part from those family who still remain together, and this is going to sway their decisions to go on or go back. This problem should come up now, as Fingolfin's host start to debate what to do next. In the end, I think some will turn back who want to go on, and some will go on who want to turn back, only to stay with their family, lovers, or very close friends. Breaking apart families (exemplified by the house of Finwe tearing apart) is a way to heighten the sense of horrible loss and tragedy in the Rebellion, on top of the Kinslaying. It's also a way to get viewers back into the Noldorin point of view, after the Beleriand episodes.
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So the differences between Finarfin and his children are open from the beginning of this episode and he is convincing people to return while the rift through the family is an increasingly painful wound. Fingolfin should tell Finarfin that he is torn in the middle but can’t break his word and has to follow Fëanor. I suggest that these things are more or less clear before Namo arrives. We won’t know for sure how people will choose of course. Then all of a sudden Namo appears and delivers the Doom. After that, Finarfin should repeat his plea to his family to return and assure them that he shall speak for them and take responsibility. Now the actual split happens and this should be extremely hard on the elves. Some of them will find words of goodbye and some won’t. Some will regret words spoken before the Doom. The question is, will anyone change their minds at this point?
I'm sure some will change their minds after hearing the Doom. But Noldor can be stubborn and "none" stayed home or turned back out of fear -- only for love of the Valar, of Valinor, or of family. So definitely some will have made up their minds. And the most unrepentant rebels will feel that the Valar are just being hostile and that Namo's threats "prove" they're tyrants. In fact Feanor could give a deranged paranoid speech to his sons and host after telling Namo off.
Annals of Aman: "Then many quailed. But Feanor hardened his heart and said: ... But in that hour Finrod [Finarfin] forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and bitterness against the house of Feanor, because of his kinship with Olwe ... and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still" (Later Quenta has almost the same words)
Also it seems my characterization of Fingolfin doesn't match JRRT's. He only goes forward against his better judgment because most of his followers want to, "Fingon his son so urged him", and because of his vow to Feanor. Turgon is the one who is "one of the most determined and unrepentant supporters of Feanor's rebellion".
I don't know. There's really no indication that Finarfin, or anyone, was having second thoughts immediately after the Kinslaying. Nothing is really said of anyone's immediate reaction.
Annals of Aman: "Then many quailed. But Feanor hardened his heart and said: ... But in that hour Finrod [Finarfin] forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and bitterness against the house of Feanor, because of his kinship with Olwe ... and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still" (Later Quenta has almost the same words)
Also it seems my characterization of Fingolfin doesn't match JRRT's. He only goes forward against his better judgment because most of his followers want to, "Fingon his son so urged him", and because of his vow to Feanor. Turgon is the one who is "one of the most determined and unrepentant supporters of Feanor's rebellion".
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I'm not sure where we are on these issues...
1). The Noldor are journeying north and the way is long and ever more evil. We should find them in the mountainous, cold and empty waste of Araman. Some travel on the ships but that's mostly Fëanor and his people. On the shore, the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin march, and their internal and relational conflicts gnaw on them. The discussions we have talked about take place, which in part will answer 2).
3) The attack on the havens is a blitz attack, and the Falathrim won't have much to put against the wolves and wargs and werewolves. They more or less have to run for it, and jump onto the ships. An alternative could be that the Falathrim go to meet the attackers on the field, but are forced to retreat.
4) Boldog's host is roaming Eastern Beleriand buring things and killing stray elves and animals. But they don't encounter that many enemies, which makes the orcs frustrated and wears down the morale. Boldog's solution is to keep on burning things and lay waste to the land, to force the elves he knows are hiding somewhere to come forward. We could choose to have Boldog setting up camp on Amon Ereb, which will then become the target of the attack by the elves. (I think the PubSil implies though that the Elves defended Amon Ereb, not the other way around)
We should perhaps see some scene with communication between the Sindar and their allies, which will eventually lead to the attack on the orc army later.
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It is important that the Noldor are really shaken by the Doom; Namo's appearance, his voice etc. should be very intimidating. I don't mean that they fall on the ground in hysteria, they will keep brave faces I guess, but they have to be visibly affected or it will make the Doom a bit lame.
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Absolutely. At the same time it should not be an exercise of terror. The Valar do not attempt to sway free wills by fear which is against Eru's law.
The words should be a frightening warning, but Namo should be stern and pitiless, not a figure of fear.
In the event no Noldor turned back out of fear -- only out of remorse.
@Marielle
To your earlier question, further info: In "Glorfindel" (Peoples of Middle-earth, c. 1972) one of the notes says "when Finarfin heard the final doom of Mandos and repented, the greater part of that host returned to Valinor." (the "host" in question is those following Finarfin, said here to be a separate Third Host.
That note does then end with the statement that Turgon was elected High King and Fingolfin apparently didn't exist, so take it or leave it as you wish...
The words should be a frightening warning, but Namo should be stern and pitiless, not a figure of fear.
In the event no Noldor turned back out of fear -- only out of remorse.
@Marielle
To your earlier question, further info: In "Glorfindel" (Peoples of Middle-earth, c. 1972) one of the notes says "when Finarfin heard the final doom of Mandos and repented, the greater part of that host returned to Valinor." (the "host" in question is those following Finarfin, said here to be a separate Third Host.
That note does then end with the statement that Turgon was elected High King and Fingolfin apparently didn't exist, so take it or leave it as you wish...
About Boldog... The question is basically, how does he respond to the absence of Elves, and how does his army respond to that absence? He is not a great strategist, that's Sauron's role. He is more of a tactician, and a whip. I think his troops will be frustrated with the situation, but they could of course also start to think that they have won already, begin to relax and be prone to hanging around camp fires and drink disgusting orc spirits while singing hoarsely about cowardly or dead Elves. Boldog himself won't like this. I think he is smart enough to understand that it isn't over by far. So what does he do? I think he has to invent objectives for his army, such as taking a hill, building a trench, erecting a palisade. If there's a bridge across Gelion, he will take it, if not, perhaps he will have his troops build a crude bridge. As I suggested earlier, I think he could take Amon Ereb and set up camp there, or instruct a group of orcs to set up a scouting post on it. Some will just be exercising. Basically, he'll try to activate his troops with different tasks that aren't that complicated, but could take some time. Of course, we don't want it to look like the orcs under Boldog are particularly constructive - they should be the opposite - so they can't all be building stuff, and the things they build will have to be crude and temporary.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Like the wooden constructs in Goblin-town in The Hobbit?
Well, that would be the obvious thing, wouldn't it? And that's what they do of course. But that doesn't take him very far. The orcs get unruly not just in their ruining the beauty of Beleriand, but within the ranks. I think that since we have established that he's into discipline, he has to fight to keep discipline and morale. Some of this could be through punishing troublemakers. Distraction, yes, but with what? The problem with focusing on burning is that it just makes it so obvious that there are no enemies around. This is frustrating. They have to take the next step and make themselves lords of Eastern Beleriand. They should establish dominion over the plains. It's not building a great fort, it's more like digging a trench around a camp (which could be a punishment) or finding the hill that's the best place to get a good view of the land.
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Marielle
Well-Known Member
I think any "constructive" (using that term very loosely) use of the orcs should come from Sauron. He's the one who would see the use of forts, war machines, etc. and so set them to shovel and hammer. I'm not sure Boldog would see the point, and I think he'd likely resent the impediment upon his desires.
As I have been trying to make clear (but doing a bad job), I do not mean construction as in anything defying the test of time more than a few weeks unless constantly repaired. The concept of engineering is foreign to them.
But I guess that Sauron could send a bat messenger to Boldog and learn after he has driven the Falathrim into the sea that Boldog has a problem. He could then instruct Boldog to take some strategic points and set up camp and put some thought on defence. Boldog will use these instructions as well as he can, which probably won’t be exactly the way Sauron intended.
But I guess that Sauron could send a bat messenger to Boldog and learn after he has driven the Falathrim into the sea that Boldog has a problem. He could then instruct Boldog to take some strategic points and set up camp and put some thought on defence. Boldog will use these instructions as well as he can, which probably won’t be exactly the way Sauron intended.