Alatar and Pallando

I still have my conspiracy theory about them being makar and méassë, maybe I will find the time to make a drawing how i imagine them xD
 
Makar and Measse...

Those two Warmongers would be the Valars worst choice, fighting fire with fire. I'd send them outer space to watch Morgoth not returns too early, with the danger that ones meteorite might fall down...
 
Makar and Measse...

Those two Warmongers would be the Valars worst choice, fighting fire with fire. I'd send them outer space to watch Morgoth not returns too early, with the danger that ones meteorite might fall down...

Oh, in their early incarnations sure. I hc them becoming more of Maiar figures that are still confrontative, but less of completely wild (and high status) canons. I could see Orome for example losing patience with Manwes way of doing things and sending two istari over, together with maybe other more proactively minded Valar. That would explain them coming earlier and seemingly going on a separate route to the other 3 Istari. After all they do a similar thing to Orome previously, proactively trying to go roam the places in middle earth that are most directly affected by Morgoth/Sauron (how successfully and with what tactics is completely open). In comparison the brown, grey and white istari seem to pursue a more conservative, guarding and cohesision - mission (in line with how the noldor & co have retreated into their little oasis of peace), and trying to recreate a last alliance once again.
 
...thinking about the young Al and Pal as members of the Valinor crowd
This is an excellent point. While the Istari have not yet been selected nor has their mission even crossed the minds of the Valar, the Ainur who will eventually be sent as steward-helpers into Middle-earth are already in Valinor and we should or at least could show them living and maybe expressing opinions if not taking part in any action. Way back in Season 1 we already had Olorin and Curunir reacting to events and they are 2 of the 5 wizards so why not Alatar and Palando, and even Aiwendil?
 
Both becoming sort of cult leaders or religious figures is an obvious choice but of course Mithluin is right, none of them should either mirror Radagast nor Saruman.
We have many options, even within the Professor's drafts and notes. He seemed to change his mind about whether they were helping while out of contact with the other three Istari or whether they fell into evil/distraction. Since we have two remaining wizards we might be able to have it both ways: one goes evil and allies himself with Sauron (a step further than even Saruman goes) and the other helps free at least some of the Atani of the East from the sway of Sauron so that more Easterlings did not go to war in Gondor. Perhaps the wizard does this by establishing a magical tradition among Men to help strengthen them oppose Sauron.

The only thing I think we should avoid is letting them drop out of the story entirely (aka the Daeron effect). It's mysterious and tantalizing in the text but they are a real opportunity for the viewers to see what is going on in the East. Sauron spends centuries there at different points in his career and they can be part of the drama in that other theater of action.
 
I mean we have pretty much carte blanche with them. I agree, the daeron effect would be a lost opportunity. They can either be a duo, one goes bad one stays good, or they can just have very different philosophies, good or evil. Like, compare a radagast, a saruman pre fall and a gandalf. Very different priorities and character traits. I honestly wouldn't wanna center the east/south storyline just on them and the like, mystery if they go Anakin or Luke. Of course that can be a part of the plot, but I would think making that the focus takes away from how large and complicated the situation outside Beleriand & known ME probably is.
 
You're right, we have quite a bit of latitude to make their stories what we want. I think they at least start off as a duo, they certainly seem to be a package deal when they arrive. Perhaps they become estranged after a few centuries of more active collaboration.

As to how we want to paint their philosophies I would like to see them not as mirrors of the wizards we know but on the same spectrum but in different places, perhaps in terms of both goodness and engagement. The examples below are more about a kind of framework than about getting the order right.
- Level of Initial Virtue: Gandalf > Rhadagast > Pallando > Saruman > Alatar
- Level of Engagement: Saruman > Gandalf > Pallando > Alatar > Rhadagast
 
I always thought, hence Alatar was selected before Gandalf and after Saruman he may originally have been second in rank.Hence Gandalf became the new white Wizard and not him i thought, maybe ha was cast out the order even before Saruman was.Maybe even BY Saruman when he visited the east .
 
When Gandalf became the new white Wizard and not him I thought, maybe he was cast out the order even before Saruman was. Maybe even BY Saruman when he visited the east.
I love it! This claim is now a fact in my personal head-cannon/internal-adaptation.
 
I once posted a ttrpg based in Middle Earth I'd love to craft. Central to it would be the wanderings of Saruman during the years he took up residence in Orthanc. Because of that, I drafted some fan-fic origins. They are PURELY speculative, but I'll leave them here. Perhaps they will spark conversation:

My thoroughly elaborated backstory is that Saruman, the only of the three later Istari who volunteered to leave Valinor, I like to think has a bit of chip on his shoulder as he was the only one not selected for the task (wonder if there's a little foresight there). So he is, maybe more than the other two, incredibly determined to fulfill his duty to the best of his ability. As such he seeks out those who have gone before to learn from, namely, the two blue who went forth in the Second Age.

There however he does not find two wizards united in purpose. The first, the one he knew as Pallando, has, in his quest to help all life in the East, spent much of his time with trees; the long inhabitants of that region whom he has learnt much from. The floral equivalent of a later Radaghast. The other, once Alatar, in his quest to cause division amongst the servants of Sauron, has overtime become directly set against Sauron as a rival mystic lord, followed by a spreading cult of believers. He has used the palantir he brought from Valinor, intended for communication across the seas, to instead peer at days not yet come and thereby granting him powers worthy of diefication in the minds of those swayed away from Sauron and to his course.

In the years that passed Alatar, renounced his god-kingship and 'retired' after seeing the devastation caused in his name. Saving a child from a genocide wrought by his followers, Alatar become nothing more than a solitary fisherman. He fell in love and they raised their son. Though his followers grew, despite his absence. Following their influence to its source, Saruman found Alatar. He became aggrieved to see one of his order fall so greatly and tries to reason with his friend, to come back to their united mission. Alatar attempts to explain to Saruman that this is in fact their mission. This is opposite to darkness, and a far better stance than that he held before. The simply everdyday acts of love can fight back against forces of despair and destruction. In the meantime, Pallando found the palantir. In it, he saw the death of the trees at the hands of Saruman. Lost to his own cause, Pallando sought out Saruman.

Pallando finds them and sees only failures, those who have or will cause destruction in Middle Earth. Saruman is forced to strike down Pallando, one of his own order. A terrible path is begun. And Saruman picks up the fallen palantir. He plans to cast it into the oceans. However, at the moment of casting it into a depth where it shall never be found, Saruman, seeks to perceive how to destroy the growing dark power of Sauron. In the palantir, he glimpses visions of great machines and forges mastered by himself, a lidless red eye blinking out and a people of small stature toiling under his own supervision. He struggles with the choices he has made to defeat one of his own order but also the images he saw. It seems that to defeat Sauron he must turn to machinecraft. And perhaps the Little People, should he find them, may play a roll. But his mind ever turns to the memory of the power of the palantiri and how, with another in his hands, he alone may succeed in cleansing the land of darkness. Thus, an obsession to find one of the remaining seeing stones in the West is kindled. Saruman takes his studies to Minis Tirith.

This is entirely fan fiction but I think an interesting 'origin story' for Saruman and a perspective on other ways the Istari can 'fall'.


This is obviously Second Age stuff. But, the idea of the Istari entering the East as Sauron does and having them almost act as a detective duo hunting him out, having seen signs of his manipulation is interesting to me. Having sequences of them kind of playing PI, since they could be this early-trial mission of the Istari and have no precedent for what their role might be. And in that, we can see the beginnings of differing interpretations of what is good about Arda and what works in opposing evil. Leading to a division between them by the end of the season. Like True Detective with wizards. So if we do catch up with them MANY series down the road, it'll be a real shock to see what roads they've gone down.
 
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I think the Virtue/Power axes are only two on which you can evaluate the istari. I think to me almost more interesting is not the question of quantity (power/goodness) but quality, as in kind. I would think that there are a lot of ways an Istar can work their ways, be it the teambuilding and hope-kindling gandalf engages in, the technocratic militaristic ways of saruman (totally independent from his goodness or badness, for all we know the nice numenorians and the second age elves did also use some of this philosophy to put up a big fight against sauron, so i would hesitate to just say that in Tolkien that is automatically a sign of a predestined fall) And then there is of course the shepherding, guarding, preserving ways of radagast.

The idea that the blue istari were working primarily in evidence gathering and politicking is def. one way to go, although their names also can suggest sth more martial, but not exclusively, they could also be metaphorical names) But as they are not going from elvish secret refuge to struggling man-kingdom to hidden hobbit-lands, but travelling in Sauron's domains, a certain amount of secrecy and intrigue seems to be unavoidable. They might also be these agents of chaos, just throwing sticks between Saurons legs here and there, while most times not just unambiguously saving they day and like, single-handedly "liberating cities". Which is a way I wouldn't wanna go down anyway, because yeah. not an ideal look.
 
I def went with Alatar/Morinehtar as 'Darkness-slayer' being a more active, militant name that then takes on a later alternative meaning, slaying darkness through light in small ways. While Pallando/Rómestámo I found really intriguing, as it just means 'East Helper'. But that is a region. It doesn't specify who is helped. Which made me think of Radaghast who certainly helps but not in a way that was intended and leads him off course.
 
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I think the Virtue/Power axes are only two on which you can evaluate the istari. I think to me almost more interesting is not the question of quantity (power/goodness) but quality, as in kind.
Lots of great ideas in your post but wanted to note that the two scales were not meant to be the definitive lens through which we should look at the Istari, just one possible rubric. I'm enthusiastic about decoupling the kind of approach from the goodness/evilness of the individual using those methods. I love the idea that Curunir's R&D was tech-transitioned into the allied armies helping the Eldar and Edain beat back Sauron's advances. Your point about having to maneuver carefully when operating the Sauronic territory is also well taken. The blue wizards probably couldn't afford t0 expose themselves too directly.
And Rob I agree that we ought to be taking inspiration from any hints in their alternative names for possible character traits or plot elements. And could we also consider that both sets of names were true, perhaps as title given (or guises taken) at different times and for different strategic/plot reasons?
 
Oh totally, plus who gives those names, how do they get back to the people who write down the tales of Beleriand and ME? I imagine the narrator would be mostly be basing their understanding of the blue istari on the white, grey and brown wizards and then supplementing it with the spotty/few sources that have mentioned them/news of them that has made it back. So their names are also possibly very much dependent on an opinion of someone or many ppl between the blue Istari and pengholod & co. I guess it is possible very few ppl have actually met them in ME, if any outside of the other Istari. Or maybe earlier on they did come back for a report back some times. But that's all open.
 
Alatar and Pallando clearly are their valinorian names!

Morinehtar and Romestamo are more interesting hence they already point towards their missions and preferences... but who gave them? As Lindon spoke primarily Sindarin and nobody in ME speaks Quenya any more they're probably ALSO valinorian names, but newer ones given already in context of their mission, with a quasi-prophetic intention.
 
Alatar and Pallando clearly are their valinorian names!

Morinehtar and Romestamo are more interesting hence they already point towards their missions and preferences... but who gave them? As Lindon spoke primarily Sindarin and nobody in ME speaks Quenya any more they're probably ALSO valinorian names, but newer ones given already in context of their mission, with a quasi-prophetic intention.

I always assumed these were retrospective names.

I think what interests me the most about these two is that, if we follow the model of them being the advance team, how much of ME might overwhelm or confuse them. I don't mean they are constantly bewildered, but there may be an element of culture shock. Or at least, confusion in how to complete their mission. Their roles are unique and new and there isn't a clear roadmap. And so them going off course is hard in one sense, because their is no course. They are laying the groundwork.

The three later Istar (again, if we treat these two as the advance team) will build on the mistakes and successes of Alatar and Pallando. So we have a real range to explore what it means to be Istari and what the job is, how it could work, how it can fall apart and how it needs to be change. They are kind of like missionaries. And there is a long and problematic history tied to that idea and whether even such a thing is the best way to convey that message.

For me, the real exciting story angle for these guys is not just the unknown of what they represent. And getting to know them as people.

I think that's why I like the idea of them having a very strong divergence point and also some real turnaround and changing of their own positions as they learn what it means to live in the world.
 
Missionaries indeed. And subversive Agents as well.And explorers!

They certainly have hardly any idea where they are going, what people are like, do not speak the language or know anything about their cultures or believes except theyre supposedly wild men or men of darkness...
 
Missionaries indeed. And subversive Agents as well.And explorers!

They certainly have hardly any idea where they are going, what people are like, do not speak the language or know anything about their cultures or believes except theyre supposedly wild men or men of darkness...

Which is I think why I like the idea of them following up on Sauron's activities like detectives initially. Following clues, questioning locals. Breezing into town with a set 'mission'. Then, you know, discovery life happening. And get distracted by people. Which they maybe should have been doing all along.
 
Yeah I prefer if the association is noir detective in a difficult world rather than "Hello, my name is elder price.."

And I think it might also be good to not mostly let their story be based on if they turn bad, that can certainly be a concern at times, but I think it would be more interesting to have them grapple with the question of "how to help" instead of "if to help" (of course how to help can lead to bad things, but then it kinda sneaks up on you till you go "oh fuck are we the bad guys?" instead of framing everything to be about "do they go to the dark side")
 
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