Beren's equipment

Odola

Well-Known Member
The Girdle clearly allowed Beren in though, and how much control does Thingol have over it? Even Melian knew the Girdle would be breached one day.
This is why I said Luthien cannot be hold acountable for the "letting him in" part. And as elves have another time perspective, her delaying the reporting could have been overlooked a bit - if Beren happened to be unarmed.
An bow is also hunting equipment, and we know Beren does not hunt. Last time the Tolkien Professor mentiond Beren having no weapons as one of the signs to Luthien that Beren is interesting and different. An unstrung bow is basically just an ornate stick and not an active combat weapon. This gives leeway for Thingol's coutiers to chose not to accusse Luthien publicly of treason.

Having no repercussion for such a serious offence like knowingly letting an armed intruder roam freely in her county would make for bad optics for the audience as
1. it would show Luthien as massively arrogant for considering herself so much above the law
2. it would show Doriath as ridden with nepotism for her to expect to get away with it

we do avoid this to a degree by making the offense less severe.

But it does show up in the Lays of Beleriand, meaning it made its way into some material for poetry, and I don't intend for him to be fighting Dwarves with an antler like Frey at Ragnarok. Plus why else would Beren be shown with a sword in artwork like Alan Lee's that features on the cover of books if he wasn't meant to have it throughout his exploits (the presence of Luthien and Huan seems to indicate he had it as late as Huan abandoning Celegorm)?
Is Luthien not shown very long-haired in this picture too? And should she not still have relatively shortened hair still? So the picture clearly is no meant literally.

I agree that a bow is not going to work for a one armed man, but why not a spear?
:cool: an atlatl could be used one-handed, if you use your fingers skillfully to hold the dart for one second when you attach the thowing stick to the dart's end - just saying... ;-) and a dart quiver can be attached to one's side and the atlatl itself can be carried behing one's belt like a knive would... ;-) all feasible to be used one handed - no crossbow necessary...
And a crossbow needs two hands to be loaded - or not?
If you not like the atlatl then of course: thowing arrows (Dutch arrows, Swiss arrows) - and small fledged javelins.
You carry a bundle of them in one hand, stick them point down vertically in a row in front or to the side of you into the ground and then pick up each just before you throw it (just like when using a atlatl one-handed, just without the atlatl, but just with the fingers instead).
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Is Luthien not shown very long-haired in this picture too? And should she not still have relatively shortened hair still? So the picture clearly is no meant literally.



:cool: an atlatl could be used one-handed, if you use your fingers skillfully to hold the dart for one second when you attach the thowing stick to the dart's end - just saying... ;-) and a dart quiver can be attached to one's side and the atlatl itself can be carried behing one's belt like a knive would... ;-) all feasible to be used one handed - no crossbow necessary...
And a crossbow needs two hands to be loaded - or not?
If you not like the atlatl then of course: thowing arrows - fledged javelins.
You carry a bundle of them in one hand, stick them point down verically in a row in front or to the side of you into the ground and then pick up each just before you throw it (just like when using a atlatl one-handed, just without the atlatl but just with the fingers instead).
It's just over waist-length and I can't imagine it would be practical for it to be the massive length she makes it for the whole story; it would get caught on things.

No need to be smug about the atlals.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
It's just over waist-length and I can't imagine it would be practical for it to be the massive length she makes it for the whole story; it would get caught on things.
But would it grow back this fast? In our story it is only a few weeks from it having been cut and the magic is no longer working on it, I assume?

No need to be smug about the atlals.
Ah, be gracious, do grant me some fun once in a while, please. ;)
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This is why I said Luthien cannot be hold acountable for the "letting him in" part. And as elves have another time perspective, her delaying the reporting could have been overlooked a bit - if Beren happened to be unarmed.
An bow is also hunting equipment, and we know Beren does not hunt. Last time the Tolkien Professor mentiond Beren having no weapons as one of the signs to Luthien that Beren is interesting and different. An unstrung bow is basically just an ornate stick and not an active combat weapon. This gives leeway for Thingol's coutiers to chose not to accusse Luthien publicly of treason.

Having no repercussion for such a serious offence like knowingly letting an armed intruder roam freely in her county would make for bad optics for the audience as
1. it would show Luthien as massively arrogant for considering herself so much above the law
2. it would show Doriath as ridden with nepotism for her to expect to get away with it

we do avoid this to a degree by making the offense less severe.



Is Luthien not shown very long-haired in this picture too? And should she not still have relatively shortened hair still? So the picture clearly is no meant literally.



:cool: an atlatl could be used one-handed, if you use your fingers skillfully to hold the dart for one second when you attach the thowing stick to the dart's end - just saying... ;-) and a dart quiver can be attached to one's side and the atlatl itself can be carried behing one's belt like a knive would... ;-) all feasible to be used one handed - no crossbow necessary...
And a crossbow needs two hands to be loaded - or not?
If you not like the atlatl then of course: thowing arrows (Dutch arrows, Swiss arrows) - and small fledged javelins.
You carry a bundle of them in one hand, stick them point down vertically in a row in front or to the side of you into the ground and then pick up each just before you throw it (just like when using a atlatl one-handed, just without the atlatl, but just with the fingers instead).
An atlal isn't much use as a melee weapon though.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
An atlal isn't much use as a melee weapon though.
It can double as club in great need better than a bow does, for sure.
But still, Beren might have got a sword from Thingol as a wedding present. Or maybe even better, from Melian herself.
 
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Octoburn

Active Member
I know we have already decided to send Narsil to Dor-Lomin with Emildir, but might it be a pretty good idea to pass it on the Beren?

We were having issues trying to figure out how to get it to the Havens without it ending up on the Hill of the Slain, so why not make it a little cleaner path?

My main issue with the idea is that all of the "relics of the house of Beor" ends up being "stuff Beren had." Which is not to say it diminishes their value, it just changes the context, IMO, when almost all the heirlooms of Numenor end up being stuff Beren once had, especially if there are only two items that I can recall that Beren never possesses (Aranruth and the scepter)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
If there is no sword mentioned in the text, why is it essential that Beren have one with him at all times?

Beren is armed when he departs Doriath - with the Bow of Bregor. Just because Thingol is unlikely to offer Beren a sword when he's being escorted out of Doriath doesn't mean that Beren can't obtain a sword in Nargothrond - which he will then lose with all the rest of his gear while in captivity in Tol Sirion.

Beren doesn't seem to be armed with a sword during the confrontation with Celegorm and Curufin. His leap and subsequent strangling suggest he was likely unarmed at the time. What's more, he takes Curufin's knife. That is the weapon he uses in Angband, going back to the earliest version of the Tale of Tinuviel where he's armed with a kitchen knife from Tevildo's kitchens.

The text of the Lay tells us that Beren had a sword named Dagmor. We have given him that sword during his time in Dorthonion (for 5 episodes of the show).
If he has a sword in the Lay and he loses it in Nan Dungortheb, again, what's the point of giving him a sword in-text if nobody would know he had it? He isn't going to talk about the sword at any point, might as well write it off without a name.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
If he has a sword in the Lay and he loses it in Nan Dungortheb, again, what's the point of giving him a sword in-text if nobody would know he had it? He isn't going to talk about the sword at any point, might as well write it off without a name.

Beren's people might carry a legend of it. And Elrond seems to collect legends. Elrond is at the Havens of Sirion when the remnants of all the Houses of Men gather there. Our version of the Lay is the one translated by Bilbo as Bilbo wrote the translations from Elvish. And as we see in the "emerald" inclusion in the Earendil poem, Bilbo likes to include as many elements from various sources in his stories as he can.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Beren's people might carry a legend of it. And Elrond seems to collect legends. Elrond is at the Havens of Sirion when the remnants of all the Houses of Men gather there. Our version of the Lay is the one translated by Bilbo as Bilbo wrote the translations from Elvish. And as we see in the "emerald" inclusion in the Earendil poem, Bilbo likes to include as many elements from various sources in his stories as he can.
It's never written down; the Lay appears to have come from Sindarin, which indicates that he had it at least as far as Doriath. Plus how would Beren's people be able to do that? They got absorbed into the House of Hador and that House didn't make it to the Havens of Sirion outside of maybe the two who had the last couple pieces of The Children of Húrin. That lot spent the rest of the First Age stuck in Dór-Lomin enslaved by the Easterlings.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Steve, we are allowed to be creative in considering how the Lay was composed. After all, the exploits of the Outlaws are rather uniformly only known to Beren after the rest of them die, but we're not considering that entire time of his life secret. Nor are we considering the journey through Nan Dungortheb something that the Lay cannot speak of, even though it would be unusual for Beren to speak freely of that time shortly after it happened. Similarly, who but Lúthien herself knows how all of Morgoth's court was put to sleep? Beren himself was out long before Morgoth fell from his throne. And so, if he had a sword for years, using it in a major battle and through all of his exploits as an outlaw, why wouldn't the sword be named and known? We know that Barahir's band was legendary beyond Dorthonion, and we show elves speaking of them in far away places.

So, why would Dagmor be a secret that no one knows under those circumstances? Beren was not as 'unknown' as you are making him out to be prior to his arrival in Doriath!
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
It's never written down; the Lay appears to have come from Sindarin, which indicates that he had it at least as far as Doriath. Plus how would Beren's people be able to do that? They got absorbed into the House of Hador and that House didn't make it to the Havens of Sirion outside of maybe the two who had the last couple pieces of The Children of Húrin. That lot spent the rest of the First Age stuck in Dór-Lomin enslaved by the Easterlings.
If it were never written down we would not have it now. Even if Bilbo heard it sung in Sindarin he was the one who put it down on paper in Westron. And he had access to any other legend surrounding Beren that Elrond or any of his household had.
And even if most of the House of Beor was intergrated into House of Hador, no reason to assume that a Beorian grandmother was not able not tell her Beorian legends to her Hadorian grandchildren?

and:
None the less, when the surviving Edain were granted the gift-land of Númenor the House of Hador was still the greatest in size of all the Houses and so made up the greater portion of the Númenóreans.

 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
There are many ways possible. Who could have told the story? Well who was there? Beren and Luthien!
Whom could they've told it? Well, their friends and family maybe? What about people in Doriath, or Ossiaraind, what about Dior? Who ever wrote it down or sung it the first time must have had access to some oral tradition, otherwisely it would have just been made up. Both elves and Edain have the tradition of storytellers and harper-seers before actual written history.But it could also have been the other way around and a written history was adapted by a later poet.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Something I was thinking about on a general level with Beren as far as strength is concerned: is it like Rick O'Connell from The Mummy trilogy where he makes short work of human opponents like the Medjai or regular mummies but gets his butt kicked by supernatural foes like Imhotep?

 

Odola

Well-Known Member
As Beren does not use fur and he needs winter clothes in Doriath before he is in contact with elves I do propose a straw mantle

akin to the one that is supposed to have been used by Oetzi
those are used (among other instances worldwide ) e.g. in Portuguese folk costume
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Humans do not have a restriction on the use of fur in their costumes. That restriction is applied to elves.

Beren does not personally trap or hunt animals, though.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Humans do not have a restriction on the use of fur in their costumes. That restriction is applied to elves.

Beren does not personally trap or hunt animals, though.
And Beren was just though Nan Dungortheb so any clothes he had before were in shambles. So he either skins randomly found carrion (eeek) or he is restricted to plant material.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
And Beren was just though Nan Dungortheb so any clothes he had before were in shambles. So he either skins randomly found carrion (eeek) or he is restricted to plant material.
But would he get enough of it to make clothing?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
But would he get enough of it to make clothing?
Grass? For sure. There is grass is Doriath. There is a river there, so there must be grass growing at its banks.

Lúthien could leave him winter gear hanging out on a tree branch. ;)
That would count as "active encouragement" and as such change the chase dynamics.
The point is that the chase is completely hopeless from Beren's viewpoint and there is no communication as yet.
Gifting and accepting gifts is a form of communication and mutually conscious aknowledgement - and so would be hanging clothes out on a tree for Beren to find and accept - then better to have him him wake up on chilly autumn morning covered with a wool mantle - he was sleeping so he has not been actively accepting a gift by reaching out for it and it would seem for him just "magic of the place".
Actively accepting a gift by Beren would preempt the "put her hand in his" moment, partly ruining the surprise.
Beren would know that someone - presumably Luthien - has noticed him, his need and cares enough to answer it.

Even a scene were a disgusted silent Daeron appears for a second and dismissingly throws Beren a set of basic elvish clothes for Beren not to offend elvish aesthetics by running around half-naked would count as a disgruntled tolerance of Beren's presence in the forest.
 
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