Draft outline for Season 2

Haakon

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Lorien is right next to Moria. Must Some dwarves around. Maybe travelling past? Or maybe they just look up to the dimrill dale and start talking about the battle of Azanulbisar(?) And of dwarves in general?
Moria is occupied by orcs, trolls and a balrog.
 

Haakon

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I don't think dwarves travelled much through these lands at this time, actually.
Galadriel could of course speak of Gandalf's dealings with Thorin & Co.
 

Haakon

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I'm saying this because Haldir says in FOTR that they haven't had dealings with dwarves since the dark times (or something like that).
 

NorthernStrider

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I'm saying this because Haldir says in FOTR that they haven't had dealings with dwarves since the dark times (or something like that).
@1:45... it did not allow me to post with the time stamp to start at.

"We have not had dealings with the Dwarves since the dark days..."

 

MithLuin

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This frame is taking place in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Five Armies, so dwarf movement is a possibility - especially dwarves from the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills returning to rebuild the Lonely Mountain. They...won't take a path through Lothlorien, but people could mention them.

Balin will, of course, in later years try to retake Moria with a contingent of dwarves from the Lonely Mountain as well...and certainly the elves of Lothlorien are aware of his attempt! But again, I don't see any actual interaction between the dwarves of Moria and Lothlorien during that time, either.

"A dwarf!" said Haldir. "That is not well. We have not had dealings with the Dwarves since the Dark Days. They are not permitted in our land. I cannot allow him to pass."
Lothlorien is the most extremely isolationist land in Middle Earth*, I think. They don't invite people to pass through their lands. Pretty much ever. There is a reason their reputation is what it is - welcoming strangers is not their thing. I am not trying to equate Lothlorien to Mordor or anything, just showing that there's not going to be an easy way to work 'outsiders' into a frame set there. The people in the frame would have to leave Lothlorien, or we have to content ourselves with news from the world at large rather than actually meeting people.

Thranduil's kingdom in Mirkwood is fairly close (distance wise) to Lothlorien, and Legolas, the crown prince, has never visited there, seemingly.

*At this time. Obviously, no one can hold a candle to Turgon in Gondolin.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
While Balin & Co. might not enter Lothlorien, it is not impossible for there to be some small contact with them outside the forest on their way into Moria. If Arwen were riding alone or with minimal escort, it could happen and not be inconsistent with the story.
 

MithLuin

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While Balin & Co. might not enter Lothlorien, it is not impossible for there to be some small contact with them outside the forest on their way into Moria. If Arwen were riding alone or with minimal escort, it could happen and not be inconsistent with the story.
Eh....sorta, maybe. There's a few issues here with the Timeline, though we could work around it as needed.

First, Arwen lives in Lothlorien until Estel turns 20, then she returns to Rivendell to visit her father and brothers. 29 years later, she is again living in Lorien, and that is when Aragorn meets her there and they get engaged. She is back in Rivendell during the Lord of the Rings timeframe, of course.

About the time that Arwen is returning to Rivendell is when Balin and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Balin makes the ill-fated attempt to reclaim Moria in TA 2989-2994, which is well after Aragorn and Arwen's engagement. If the point of the 'Arwen in Lothlorien' frame was to introduce us to who Arwen is before she ever meets Aragorn, then we really wouldn't want to set it that late. We'd be much better off using random dwarf traffic to and from the Lonely Mountain in the aftermath of the Battle of Five Armies, I think.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
All of this is indeed true. What was I thinking?


The only thing I can think of aside from random traffic is the near-religious significance of the Mirrormere to Gimli, it wouldn't shock me to find a dwarvish pilgrim hoping for a glimpse. Some scholarly dwarf that might remind one of Father Gilbert from Dragonheart.
 

Haakon

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Yes Haldir's statement about no dealings since the dark days could of course just mean that there's been no close encounters, a dwarf or two seen travelling close by could have happened.
 

Haakon

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We discussed Celeborn's family background somewhere. As I understand it, there are two versions? We must choose one, of course... According to one (and please excuse me if I get this wrong), he is the grandson of Elmo, who is the youngest brother of Elwë and Olwë. His father is Galadhon. There is also a brother, Galathil.
As MithLuin commented, the name Elmo could have been better. We didn't want Celeborn to be the oldest of his family line until later, so we wanted to keep Elmo in the story - but we were then under the impression that Celeborn was Elmo's son, not his grandson. So, now that we have Galadhon, we can write Elmo out of the story. He can stay at Cuivienen, or perhaps stay with Lenwë? Or he could get killed, in battle with orcs, in a mountaineering accident or whatever we come up with. Galadhon becomes the oldest in the family anyway. Perhaps Celeborn is born later in the season - in Doriath?
 
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MithLuin

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Oh dear. If Celeborn and Galathil are brothers, then Elrond and Celebrían are more closely related than I realized. Galadhon is Celebrían's grandfather. But Galathil is Nimloth's father, so that would make Galadhon Elrond's great-great-grandfather. This would make Elrond and Celebrían first cousins twice removed. The 'twice removed' makes it okay (ie, not incest by elvish standards), but it's still a *lot* closer than I'd noticed. To be fair....Elrond is related to literally everyone, so it's not like he had much choice in the matter.


But yes, go ahead and leave Elmo at Cuivienen or kill him off, and let Galadhon be a character in Season 2 during the journey and in the early Doriath material.
 

Haakon

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Oh dear. If Celeborn and Galathil are brothers, then Elrond and Celebrían are more closely related than I realized. Galadhon is Celebrían's grandfather. But Galathil is Nimloth's father, so that would make Galadhon Elrond's great-great-grandfather. This would make Elrond and Celebrían first cousins twice removed. The 'twice removed' makes it okay (ie, not incest by elvish standards), but it's still a *lot* closer than I'd noticed. To be fair....Elrond is related to literally everyone, so it's not like he had much choice in the matter.


But yes, go ahead and leave Elmo at Cuivienen or kill him off, and let Galadhon be a character in Season 2 during the journey and in the early Doriath material.
The alternative is to make Celeborn a Teleri of Alqualondë, the grandson of Olwë. But that idea seems less developed, so I suggest we go with the grandson of Elmo version.
 

MithLuin

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We will need Thingol's court in Doriath in later seasons. We will not need Olwë's court in Alqualondë after the Kinslaying. Therefore...I am more comfortable with developing the Sindar storyline using Celeborn's family.

Also, I don't think we'll have time for the Celeborn/Galadriel romance prior to the Darkening of Valinor, but we *should* have time for it in the latter half of Season 3.

But the 'which Galadriel?' question will have to be answered at some point.

We can kill off Celeborn's father and/or brother in the sack of Doriath, I think.
 
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Haakon

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We will need Thingol's court in Doriath in later seasons. We will not need Olwë's court in Alqualondë after the Kinslaying. Therefore...I am more comfortable with developing the Sindar storyline using Celeborn's family.

Also, I don't think we'll have time for the Celeborn/Galadriel romance prior to the Darkening of Valinor, but we *should* have time for it in the latter half of Season 3.

But the 'which Galadriel?' question will have to be answered at some point.

We can kill off Celeborn's father and/or brother in the sack of Doriath, I think.
Agreed.
 

Haakon

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I've tried to sketch an outline for the season. I'm not at all sure about the sequencing of events or about the contents of the episodes. Perhaps it's useable input, though, as far as it is understandable. (It's a work in progress of course)

  1. The Awakening. FRAME: Arwen’s arrival in Lothlorien. Establishing family relationships (Elrond, Celeborn, Celebrian, Galadriel) and Arwen’s complex feelings for Celebrian. Main: The fear of the Hunter. The War to begin all wars from the elven perspective. The cataclysmic effects on the geography. Oromë finds the Children and names them eldar. The elf-fathers (War of the Jewels).
  2. The decision.Imprisoned Melkor. The power struggle between Sauron and Gothmog. The Valar decide to summon the elves to Valinor. Ulmo objects. Mandos: 'So it is doomed'. (FRAME comment on the many sorrows that follow)
  3. The ambassadors. Elves and Ents. Oromë arrives, inviting the eldar to Valinor. Some suspicion among the elves is expressed, even fear. The ambassadors volunteer to go. The ambassadors in Valinor. They return and convince the elves to come to Valinor, and become the leaders of the eldar.
  4. The Great Journey begins. The Avari remain at Cuiviénen. Introducing some prominent elves. While Oromë is away on other business, the Teleri halt at the sight of the Misty Mountains. Lenwë. The Entwives.
  5. The elf and the Ainu. Oromë finds Lenwë’s people, but many years have passed and they want to stay where they are. Sauron’s necromancy. Some of the Teleri have pressed on, but Elwë disappears. Elwë and Melian.
  6. Island ferry. Teleri (Beleg, Mablung, Daeron) are searching for Elwë. We see some of Beleriand. Ulmo speaks to the eldar. Vanyar and Noldor leave for Valinor. Teleri left behind . Olwë, Ossë and Uinen ; introducing Círdan.
  7. Fëanor. In Valinor: Finwë begs Ulmo to bring the Teleri. The sadness of Ossë. Eldamar and Tol Eressëa. Aulë and the Noldor smiths. Mahtan. The birth of Fëanor, death of Míriel. In middle-earth: Elwë and Melian spell broken. They join (or found by) the Teleri. (FRAME reference to Celebrian in Lorien)
  8. The second marriage. Alqualondë and the swan ships. Marriage of Finwë and Indis. Birth of Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fëanor and Nerdanel. Noldor create jewels and other beautiful things (like the Palantíri). The Valar discuss the the fact that the end of Melkor’s three ages of imprisonment is near. Middle-earth:King Greymantle in Neldoreth. Birth of Lúthien.
  9. End of the imprisonment. The Falathrim and Círdan. The Dwarves in their halls. Belegost and Nogrod. The Dwarf road. Elves accidentally hunt petty dwarves. Menegroth.Denethor and his people come to Ossiriand.They bring tidings of fell beasts east of the mountains. The first orcs. The making of weapons for Thingol. Melkor brought before the thones of Valar. He abases himself and sues for pardon, aided by Nienna. Manwë grants him pardon.
  10. The Silmarils. Middle-earth: Olórin visits Melian? Valinor: Melkor is released from prison. He begins to teach the Noldor. Oromë in Beleriand. Grandchildren of the three kings. Celegorm, Oromë and Huan. Birth of Celeborn, grandson of Elwë’s brother Elmo. Creation of the Silmarils.
  11. Unrest. Melkor's poisonous words. Unrest among the Noldor. Whispers of Fingolfin and sons plotting. The making of weapons. Finwë’s council. Manwë grieved.
  12. Exile I. Melkor's deeds come to light and he flees Valinor. Banishment of Fëanor; Shutting the door in Melkor's face. Preparing the feast.
  13. Darkening. The feast. Meanwhile: Melkor finds Ungoliant. They sneak into Valinor. Darkening of Valinor. Murder of Finwë.
 

MithLuin

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Not bad at all! I would say that, in general, your timing is spot on. (For instance, the courtship of Fëanor and Nerdanel takes place after the birth of Fingolfin but before the birth of Finarfin, IIRC.)

I see that you have expanded the beginning of the season, with the journey and the elves of Beleriand, rather than the time in Valinor, to fill the 'empty' three episodes. I don't think that's a bad idea, but I do think your episode 2 and episode 3 can be combined....we have an hour of TV to do this, so the Valar aren't going to stand around and talk about their idea for more than 10 minutes. But the other expansions look good to me, and I like how you've kept the Sindar and Sauron storylines intertwined with the main story.
 

Haakon

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Not bad at all! I would say that, in general, your timing is spot on. (For instance, the courtship of Fëanor and Nerdanel takes place after the birth of Fingolfin but before the birth of Finarfin, IIRC.)

I see that you have expanded the beginning of the season, with the journey and the elves of Beleriand, rather than the time in Valinor, to fill the 'empty' three episodes. I don't think that's a bad idea, but I do think your episode 2 and episode 3 can be combined....we have an hour of TV to do this, so the Valar aren't going to stand around and talk about their idea for more than 10 minutes. But the other expansions look good to me, and I like how you've kept the Sindar and Sauron storylines intertwined with the main story.
Yes good; episodes 2 and 3 could be combined while episodes 9-12 are expanded.
 

Haakon

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I don't know, it's not easy to just combine a couple of episodes and expand a few others. There are side effects. And in there are necessary breaks where I find we need to show passing of time, which puts a limit to how much you can actually shuffle things forwards or backwards. This is what it looks like right now:
  1. The Awakening. FRAME: Arwen’s arrival in Lothlorien. Establishing family relationships (Elrond, Celeborn, Celebrian, Galadriel) and Arwen’s complex feelings for Celebrian. Main: The fear of the Hunter. The War to begin all wars from the elven perspective. The cataclysmic effects on the geography. Oromë finds the Children and names them eldar. The elf-fathers (War of the Jewels). Elves and Ents. Trial and imprisonment of Melkor ("Three ages").
  2. The decision. The Valar decide to summon the elves to Valinor. Ulmo objects. Mandos: 'So it is doomed'. (FRAME comment on the many sorrows that follow) Short:The power struggle between Sauron and Gothmog. Cuiviénen: Oromë arrives, inviting the eldar to Valinor. Some suspicion among the elves is expressed, even fear. The ambassadors volunteer to go.
  3. The ambassadors. The ambassadors in Valinor. They return and convince the elves to come to Valinor, and become the leaders of the eldar. The Avari remain at Cuiviénen. Introducing some prominent elves. Sauron’s necromancy. Beginning of the Great Journey.
  4. The Great Journey. While Oromë is away on other business, the Teleri halt at the sight of the Misty Mountains. Lenwë. The Entwives. (FRAME: Fangorn?) Some of the Teleri have pressed on, but Elwë disappears. Elwë and Melian.
  5. The king is lost. Oromë finds Lenwë’s people, but many years have passed and they want to stay where they are. In Beleriand, Beleg, Mablung, Daeron and others are searching for Elwë. We see some of Beleriand. (Elwë and Melian still spellbound) Ulmo speaks to the eldar. Vanyar and Noldor leave for Valinor.
  6. The Lonely Island. Teleri left behind . Olwë, Ossë and Uinen ; introducing Círdan. In Valinor: Finwë begs Ulmo to bring the Teleri. The sadness of Ossë. Eldamar and Tol Eressëa.
  7. Fëanor. Aulë and the Noldor smiths. Mahtan. The birth of Fëanor, death of Míriel. (FRAME reference to Celebrian in Lorien) In middle-earth: Elwë and Melian spell broken. They join (or found by) the Teleri. In Valinor: Alqualondë and the swan ships.
  8. The second marriage. Marriage of Finwë and Indis. Birth of Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fëanor and Nerdanel. Noldor create jewels and other beautiful things (like the Palantíri). The Valar discuss the the fact that the end of Melkor’s three ages of imprisonment is near. Middle-earth:King Greymantle in Neldoreth. Birth of Lúthien.
  9. End of the imprisonment. The Falathrim and Círdan. The Dwarves in their halls. Belegost and Nogrod. The Dwarf road. Elves accidentally hunt petty dwarves. Menegroth.Denethor and his people come to Ossiriand.They bring tidings of fell beasts east of the mountains. The first orcs. The making of weapons for Thingol. Melkor brought before the thones of Valar. He abases himself and sues for pardon, aided by Nienna. Manwë grants him pardon.
  10. The Silmarils. Middle-earth: Olórin visits Melian? Valinor: Melkor is released from prison. He begins to teach the Noldor. Oromë in Beleriand. Grandchildren of the three kings. Celegorm, Oromë and Huan. Birth of Celeborn, grandson of Elwë’s brother Elmo. Creation of the Silmarils.
  11. Unrest. Melkor's poisonous words. Unrest among the Noldor. Whispers of Fingolfin and sons plotting. The making of weapons. Finwë’s council. Manwë grieved.
  12. Exile I. Melkor's deeds come to light and he flees Valinor. Banishment of Fëanor; Shutting the door in Melkor's face. Preparing the feast.
  13. Darkening. The feast. Meanwhile: Melkor finds Ungoliant. They sneak into Valinor. Darkening of Valinor. Murder of Finwë.
 
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