Eol

Marielle

Marielle

Well-Known Member
Okay. Eol. A distasteful personage, and an even more distasteful topic. But we have him at the Debate, and he's going to have to be around here and there from now on, unless we want to completely drop him -- and have the audience forget about him -- until the Aredhel thing happens.

I'd argue pretty fervently that we need to develop him further; he doesn't need to become one of the title card characters, but we need to set up his personality, conflicts, etc., if only so we know how far we're going on the "not wholly unwilling" issue.*

Beyond that ... unpleasant and problematic issue, Eol allows us a natural means of bringing dwarves into the story, and showing off the dwarf kingdoms of Nogrod and Belegost, as well as setting up or contrasting his kinsman Thingol's interactions with dwarves. He's also again a means of showing the extremes of the anti-Noldor reaction among the elves of Middle Earth.

Also, as one of the great Smiths (interesting that he's not a Noldo in the published text -- I know Tolkien seemed to have changed him mind about him) who makes Anguirel and Anglachel, it seems to me he needs some screen time before he catches himself a wife: unless we plan to cram his creative life into that short window between Aredhel's disappearance and her escape back to Gondolin with Maeglin?




*And please don't quote the "Laws and Customs" as if that negates this concern. Frankly, I don't think it avoids the issue, and would go farther and suggest that Maeglin's temptation undermines the "Laws and Customs" assertions -- he certainly doesn't believe that it's impossible for one elf to have another unwillingly. I also don't think that explanation would fly with a modern audience, as it treats suffering an assault of that type as a fate worse than death. I don't want to dive too deeply into that fraught and delicate issue, but it's there, and can't, unfortunately, be ignored forever. But we can for... ten more years?
 
The elfs that are left in middle earth are going to need weapons for orc fighting are they not?
Could we use Eol as the main chap in arming them?
 
IIRC, Christopher Tolkien edited that line in the published Silmarillion. It was originally 'not unwilling' perhaps? (ie, he added the 'wholly') So it's definitely an issue to discuss, and regardless, Aredhel is definitely trapped in Nan Elmoth with him and unable to leave. Kidnapping women and keeping them in your basement is generally seen as a coercion/rape thing, regardless of other details of specific consent. I think the point of Aredhel's story is that she was restless/unhappy 'trapped' in Gondolin, so she went out on adventures...and ended up truly trapped in Nan Elmoth. So, her longing for freedom should be a tragic thread in her story no matter what.

As for the 'fate worse than death' issue, keep in mind that this is *elvish* death - reincarnation is on the table. So, it's really an opportunity for victims to escape extreme torture by allowing their souls to flee their bodies. I would not try this while held captive by Morgoth or Sauron - they likely know how to trap the spirit as well. But if it's an assault? Flee, head to Mandos, be reborn later in safety. Sounds like a reasonable enough deal. Conveying that to an audience is tricky, as is every case of 'but these aren't humans we're talking about.'

The only example I can think of where Tolkien actually wrote that detail into a story was in his sun-and-moon-from-the-beginning story where Morgoth forces himself on Arien and sullies the light of the sun. Arien flees back to the Timeless Halls of Iluvatar rather than stick around for that. [And the way it is written is very clearly a proposal --> proposition --> rape scene.] Morgoth's words to Luthien in the Lay make it very clear that he intends to use her, break her, and kill her. It's not entirely clear what the cause of death would be, but could be construed as an example of this. [Morgoth seems to be quite familiar with the broken lifeless bodies of elves. Just saying.]

Considering the household Maeglin grew up in, he no doubt thinks that there are ways to convince an 'unwilling' elf. He's probably not wrong.




But back to the original point. We need to introduce the dwarves in Season 3. They need to be involved in the construction of Menegroth. And...I would say we should show Eol meeting with them to show that he is in Beleriand, too. We can show him moving into Nan Elmoth.
 
There's room for an interesting exchange between the Sindar and the Dwarves, where some other mysterious Elf is alluded to but never revealed.

(After "where do Orcs come from", the story of Eol and Aredhel is the 2nd most difficult problem we face I think.)
 
ruth barratt said:
The elfs that are left in middle earth are going to need weapons for orc fighting are they not?
Could we use Eol as the main chap in arming them?
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Ruth, that is a good place to bring him back. Perhaps not as the "main" guy, but certainly as one of the major ones, before he fully retreats out of elven society.
MithLuin said:
So, her longing for freedom should be a tragic thread in her story no matter what...

But back to the original point. We need to introduce the dwarves in Season 3. They need to be involved in the construction of Menegroth. And...I would say we should show Eol meeting with them to show that he is in Beleriand, too. We can show him moving into Nan Elmoth.
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I do prefer the idea of focusing on that part of Aredhel's narrative, rather than making her a GoT or Lifetime Original Movie victim-"heroine". And your point about elven reincarnation making death fundamentally different for them is taken. That does help me feel more comfortable with that part of LACE.

From MithLuin and Amysrevenge (and my own vote) it seems we've got a budding consensus that Eol's main role in Season 3 will be dwarf-centric. Any dissenters?
 
Second Question: Did we decide whether we're going with the published Silmarillion origin of Eol, in which he's a Teler related to Thingol, or the alternative idea that has him be a Noldo Avar?
 
Good question - if it was decided it was before my time (which isn't hard given how recently I got here). I know which I prefer, but will of course defer to any previously made decision
I'd prefer the Noldo Avar option as it's more interesting to me.
 
At one time I and I think MithLuin suggested in a session that he could be a Noldo Avar, and Dr O agreed, but maybe that wasn't the final decision.
 
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He is most definitely one of the Avari in our version. We have him storm out of the debate at Cuivienen first.

However, whether he was originally of the Teleri-group or the Noldor-group is up in the air.
 
If it's up in the air, I think I'd prefer him to be of the Noldor.

I know that there can't be 100% uniformity of career types among the races of Elves, with no non-Vanyar poets or non-Noldor craftsmen, but even though there must be Teleri smiths, I reckon Eol in particular should be a craftsman of the Noldor sort and not just a technically-savvy smith.
 
There is that, but he's also meant to hate the Noldor for slaying his kin in Alqualondë, so.....we can't have it both ways.
 
I haven't looked at the script for the pre-Westward Cuivienen debates lately, but how amicable was the split between Eol and the Eldar who packed up and went West? Plenty of room for hatred out of that breakup if we want - not that I want to make anyone go back and rewrite anything; if it's already done let it be done and we move on with what we have.

There could be a nice opportunity to have his hatred seem even more petty - gives him a bit of different flavour if his objections are a little less rooted in reality.
 
I see arguments on both sides, and reading I always thought it weird that he was associated so strongly with smith-craft and yet a Teler... but that's an easy way to emphasize how weird he is, especially if we see him learning his craft from dwarves. If we can find a way to visually distinguish the "elven" way and "dwarven" way of smithing (not sure there can be, but maybe we can play with it) and Eol is the only elf we see following the dwarvish model...?

We would loose something if we remove his resentment over the Kinslaying, but we *could* approach that with his bitterness over their return if we originally have him consider a far larger swath of land "his territory", only for him to be displaced (probably unknowingly on their part) by returning Noldor. Doesn't the text say he considers the Noldor trespassers on Teleri/Sindar lands? Don't have book in front of me...
 
Haakon said:
...Maybe he has a Noldo dad and a Teler mom...
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Yeah, but..... in Tolkien-land, that makes him entirely Noldor. Just like Fingolfin is a Noldo and Galadriel is a Noldo.

ETA: But, could still give him some kin at the Kinslaying, which was probably your point. Missed that at first.
 
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Question for our Loremaster, or others better at this than me: Are Noldor who refuse the summons still considered of that kinship, or are they simply Avari?
 
amysrevenge said:
No, I was mid-edit on my post while you were replying - that might give us both at once. He's a Noldo, with all that means, but also still has kin at the Kinslaying.
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Oh well maybe it might be something we could use after all... :)
 
amysrevenge said:
No, I was mid-edit on my post while you were replying - that might give us both at once. He's a Noldo, with all that means, but also still has kin at the Kinslaying.
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Like how Galadriel is a Noldo, but is still welcome at Doriath because of her mother's kin? Or am I confusing this somehow?
 
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