Frame Narrative

Could Arwen's mentor just be living in Lothlorien all along? We could introduce her during the festival in episode 2, and have her around for some of the episodes, and then reveal that she's leaving, and then actually leave.

It could be that the Battle of Five Armies has made the road to the Sea safer than it has been in years, and she wants to take the opportunity to leave now.
 
Or perhaps she's been on a visit to Thranduil's kingdom, and is passing through - and on her way back west she explains that she is leaving.

Or maybe she's been on a visit to her friend Radagast.
 
Or visiting her old friend Treebeard?

And then going through the Gap of Rohan up to the Old Forest to visit her old friend Tom Bombadil?
 
The point is...can Arwen's mentor be a character that we meet (not in flashback) and her decision to depart for the Havens something that happens 'on screen' in real time?

If this mentor character is an elf of Lothlorien, it solves the 'how do we introduce her?' problem. It also makes Arwen's grief a lot more immediate. I don't think there is a need to make the mentor well-traveled. If she's in Lothlorien, that's all we need from her.
 
The basic idea of the mentor was to have a female elf from the First Age living in Rivendell advising Arwen. If she lives in Lothlorien, it would seem easier to make Galadriel the mentor.

The mentor doesn't have to be well travelled. These places in western ME are within a fairly small area, and considering the mentor's long life, it's not far fetched to think that she knows Thranduil, Treebeard, Tom Bombadil, Radagast and Cirdan well.
 
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The biggest difficulty in having her reside in Rivendell is having her departure resonate for the audience. We can only see her in flashbacks. This would be fine if the main focus of the story was on some kind of drama in Lothlorien, but it isn't

By putting that much distance between the character and the viewer, we are putting them in the position where they are clearly supposed to care about her departure and it's effect on Arwen, but we haven't earned that.
 
ouzaru said:
Are there any good films or shows with similar characters and relationships we could use as a road map for the drama of the frame? I'm struggling to think of some, but it might help to get the ball rolling.
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My family and I are currently watching Castle, first time through from the beginning. Like what MithLuin said it is similar in that there is the main murder and then Castle's home life with a teenage daughter and his mother. They do a really good job of paralleling the two story lines. Castle may get some insight from his personal life that helps him crack the current case and other times there is a common thread that ties the two together. It is like out frame in that Castle's involvement usually starts at home and then the episode finishes at home and there may be one cutaway to the home story in the middle. It also very nicely just makes parallels which I think is more effective than "telling a story" and not as kitsch. They don't have any long lost children or twins, just ex's. What I mean is that they do not rely on outlandish surprises, just developments of a normal family made interesting.
There was the one we saw the other night which had a serial killer that disguised himself as a security guard or a utilities workman to gain access to women's apartments with the parallel story of the daughter receiving messages from a secret admirer. The plans develop her to meet her admirer and Castle becomes paranoid that the admirer may not have the best intentions reading in intention from his current case. In the end the admirer was the daughter's new boyfriend and totally benign.
 
In the end the difficulty with the mentor character is that she is totally invented and we, let alone the audience have no connection to her. So I suppose we have to create that. I like the idea of her living in LothLorien. That does make it more immediate and not just though relayed messages.
With the hosts definitely wanting the issue of leaving for Valinor to be raised in Episode 3 during the debate I would say the mentor has to be in that episode. It could be that a the beginning of the episode she tells Arwen of her decision and why and then at the end we get the departure/goodbye scene but no real exploration of Arwen's grief. That can come in a later episode.
 
The only other frame story the hosts seemed to like was the Gollum story. I also saw there being a strong parallel to the episode when Melkor is released as we have in both stories something unknown has been released. With Melkor we don't know if his change of heart is true or not and with Gollum there is an element of unknown as at first the audience would not know that Gollum is the subject of the frame story.
The way I see it would be that Arwen goes out riding outside the border of the forest (with an escort of course) and comes across a family that has just had their baby snatched from the window at night. They might find and follow some strange tracks, find some people with livestock missing and eventually spy on the creature at night as it tries to snatch another baby. Now they don't know what it is or who it is or what the significance is, but the audience does. They can ask questions like "where has it come from?" "why is it muttering about a precious and Baggins?" All of this is a total mystery to Arwen and her escort and they do not capture or kill it, but definitely scare it away but the audience has the insight. They know exactly who it is and the significance. Gollum is now loose in the world in the same way that Melkor is in the main story.
A simple parallel, noone telling a "story".
 
Use of 'outlandish' subplots for the Frame is quite common on some shows.

Angela spends Season 3 of Bones hunting down her husband from a brief marriage in another country, so she can finalize a divorce and get married. The existence of said (ex-) husband was revealed during her attempted second wedding in the finale of Season 2. Her new fiance gets to be totally intimidated when the guy turns up and happens to be extremely physically attractive (and nice/romantic too). They do have more mundane subplots, like office romance and difficulties with raising kids. But they seem to go for 'colorful' backstory when they can. It's the type of show where a new character can ask, "So, what happened to the guy who used to work here before me?" and get this answer: "He joined forces with a serial killer who was the last in a long line of cannibalistic murderers specializing in knocking off members of secret societies and building skeletons out of their body parts."

On House, Thirteen is super-secretive about her personal life. It is eventually revealed that her mother died of Huntington's, and she's afraid to test herself for it. She euthanized her brother when he was dying of it, but no one could prove it. So House obtains a blood sample from her using dubious methods and gets the test done himself. Once she realizes that her boss knows and she doesn't, she looks at the diagnosis - she has the disease. When she gets into an experimental drug test to help prevent onset of symptoms, her bf meddles with the test to make sure she's not in the control group. These are 'medical' subplots, but rather out there. [And then there's the subplot where House takes way too much Vicodin and starts hallucinating a dead intern.]


So, on one level, the audience might not be surprised if we introduce a character who just happens to be well travelled and know everyone in Middle Earth - she's friends with Círdan...and Treebeard...and Radagast! And can make jokes about who is older (she is, obviously). Every Tolkien fan watching the show will accuse us of introducing a Mary Sue, but whatever. But the *only* thing we need this character to do is a) have a relationship with Arwen and b) decide to leave Middle Earth for the West now. So let's focus on that, rather than developing some crazy elaborate story that we can't really get on screen anyway.


So...what if this character is Arwen's friend in Lothlorien, a contemporary rather than a mentor? Sure, maybe she's a bit older than Arwen (born sometime in the 2nd Age), but she's not a 'mentor' - this Frame already has Galadriel (queen/grandmother) and Celebrían (mother), so another old/wise female elf would be rather redundant. She's Arwen's friend, and has been her companion whenever she visits Lothlorien. Arwen has two brothers, but no sisters, so perhaps she has a sisterly relationship with this character. I mean, friendship doesn't require a lot of explanation - we just show scenes of them together enjoying each other's company. Arwen can be sad in Episode 1, spend Episode 2 at the festival (where her friend appears), and then Episode 3 is them talking about her reasons for leaving and the farewell. That would give us all the reason for the 'immediacy' of this question that we would need, and some of the friend's arguments could mirror some of the arguments from the Debate. But we would eliminate the need for an elaborate back story for this character, and the distance of messengers from Rivendell telling Arwen what happened. We also would have the parallel with Míriel having to say goodbye to her family (sister) when she leaves with the Noldor. IF we want this character to tie-in directly to the Debate at Cuiviénen, it could come up that this elf is Avari, and her parents or grandparents were there. She could be the granddaughter of Nurwen, the same way as Arwen is the granddaughter of Celeborn. (or whatever) But perhaps part of the point of the story is that by leaving, this elf becomes a 'nobody' in Middle Earth. Arwen will go on to have a place in history....nameless friend from Lothlorien...will not. Arwen is young for an elf, but not actually young, so I think we can use this character to show that Arwen is not actually a teenager. They could have a long history together. Her friend could be married (perhaps she and her husband together are leaving?) They can bring up previous visits from a thousand years ago in a 'remember that time'? way.


I know this is not the character the hosts invented. My reason for doing it this way is that it was becoming very, very difficult to introduce an Avari mentor in Rivendell who is not there any more. So the real question is...does anyone else like the idea of giving Arwen a close friend in Lothlorien?



As for the Gollum subplot, the hosts liked the idea, but they did suggest doing it differently (and a lot less like the game). Their idea seemed to be that Arwen was riding out to deliver some humanitarian aid after hearing about their plight from some messenger. So, she's not personally staying out to catch the villain or anything - they can recount the story and we can show the viewers that it's Gollum, but Arwen isn't there to fight monsters.
 
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MithLuin said:
Use of 'outlandish' subplots for the Frame is quite common on some shows.

Angela spends Season 3 of Bones hunting down her husband from a brief marriage in another country, so she can finalize a divorce and get married. The existence of said (ex-) husband was revealed during her attempted second wedding in the finale of Season 2. Her new fiance gets to be totally intimidated when the guy turns up and happens to be extremely physically attractive (and nice/romantic too). They do have more mundane subplots, like office romance and difficulties with raising kids. But they seem to go for 'colorful' backstory when they can. It's the type of show where a new character can ask, "So, what happened to the guy who used to work here before me?" and get this answer: "He joined forces with a serial killer who was the last in a long line of cannibalistic murderers specializing in knocking off members of secret societies and building skeletons out of their body parts."

On House, Thirteen is super-secretive about her personal life. It is eventually revealed that her mother died of Huntington's, and she's afraid to test herself for it. She euthanized her brother when he was dying of it, but no one could prove it. So House obtains a blood sample from her using dubious methods and gets the test done himself. Once she realizes that her boss knows and she doesn't, she looks at the diagnosis - she has the disease. When she gets into an experimental drug test to help prevent onset of symptoms, her bf meddles with the test to make sure she's not in the control group. These are 'medical' subplots, but rather out there. [And then there's the subplot where House takes way too much Vicodin and starts hallucinating a dead intern.]


So, on one level, the audience might not be surprised if we introduce a character who just happens to be well travelled and know everyone in Middle Earth - she's friends with Círdan...and Treebeard...and Radagast! And can make jokes about who is older (she is, obviously). Every Tolkien fan watching the show will accuse us of introducing a Mary Sue, but whatever. But the *only* thing we need this character to do is a) have a relationship with Arwen and b) decide to leave Middle Earth for the West now. So let's focus on that, rather than developing some crazy elaborate story that we can't really get on screen anyway.


So...what if this character is Arwen's friend in Lothlorien, a contemporary rather than a mentor? Sure, maybe she's a bit older than Arwen (born sometime in the 2nd Age), but she's not a 'mentor' - this Frame already has Galadriel (queen/grandmother) and Celebrían (mother), so another old/wise female elf would be rather redundant. She's Arwen's friend, and has been her companion whenever she visits Lothlorien. Arwen has two brothers, but no sisters, so perhaps she has a sisterly relationship with this character. I mean, friendship doesn't require a lot of explanation - we just show scenes of them together enjoying each other's company. Arwen can be sad in Episode 1, spend Episode 2 at the festival (where her friend appears), and then Episode 3 is them talking about her reasons for leaving and the farewell. That would give us all the reason for the 'immediacy' of this question that we would need, and some of the friend's arguments could mirror some of the arguments from the Debate. But we would eliminate the need for an elaborate back story for this character, and the distance of messengers from Rivendell telling Arwen what happened. We also would have the parallel with Míriel having to say goodbye to her family (sister) when she leaves with the Noldor. IF we want this character to tie-in directly to the Debate at Cuiviénen, it could come up that this elf is Avari, and her parents or grandparents were there. She could be the granddaughter of Nurwen, the same way as Arwen is the granddaughter of Celeborn. (or whatever) But perhaps part of the point of the story is that by leaving, this elf becomes a 'nobody' in Middle Earth. Arwen will go on to have a place in history....nameless friend from Lothlorien...will not. Arwen is young for an elf, but not actually young, so I think we can use this character to show that Arwen is not actually a teenager. They could have a long history together. Her friend could be married (perhaps she and her husband together are leaving?) They can bring up previous visits from a thousand years ago in a 'remember that time'? way.


I know this is not the character the hosts invented. My reason for doing it this way is that it was becoming very, very difficult to introduce an Avari mentor in Rivendell who is not there any more. So the real question is...does anyone else like the idea of giving Arwen a close friend in Lothlorien?



As for the Gollum subplot, the hosts liked the idea, but they did suggest doing it differently (and a lot less like the game). Their idea seemed to be that Arwen was riding out to deliver some humanitarian aid after hearing about their plight from some messenger. So, she's not personally staying out to catch the villain or anything - they can recount the story and we can show the viewers that it's Gollum, but Arwen isn't there to fight monsters.
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I think a younger elf friend probably is more workable than an Avari mentor from the First Age, yes. Interesting suggestion!
 
Perhaps we can have our cake and eat it too. We have an older Avari who was a mentor to Arwen who left for Valinor sometime earlier (perhaps going with Celebrian) whose daughter, contemporary with Arwen, also decides to leave during the frame story. This way, we have Arwen not only wondering because of her mother and her mentor, but also her bestie from Lothlorien.
 
So, to update the Script Discussion versions to incorporate this new idea:

Episode 1 - Arwen remembers her mother being captured by orcs, and talks to Celeborn who tells her that fear and loss was always there, from the beginning. They discuss making decisions in the face of fear.

Episode 2 - Arwen greets Galadriel for a festival of the stars in Lothlorien, but the festival is different from the one Arwen remembers from Rivendell - there is no reference to Elbereth in the songs of the elves of Lorien. Arwen discusses her surprise with Celeborn and Galadriel. Arwen's friend and companion is introduced.

Episode 3 - Arwen and her friend discuss the friend's reasons for leaving Middle Earth, and they say their goodbyes.

Episode 4 - Arwen looks into the Mirror of Galadriel and witnesses the rescue of her mother by her brothers. She tells Celeborn that the knowledge doesn't help as much as she thought it would.


(For later): Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir come to visit, and they discuss their reasons for delaying their departure from Middle Earth. (They may stick around for multiple episodes.)

(Also incorporate): A visitor to Lothlorien (Gandalf? Radagast?) alerts the elves to a menace faced by the Men along the River. Arwen rides out to give them aid and help them conquer their fear.
 
If we're going to emphasize Miriel's fading, it might be better to bring the attention back to Celebrian, rather than Arwen's mentor. Flashback is an option, but so is a conversation between Arwen and her grandparents in which she confesses how she doesn't quite understand why her mother was unable to be healed in Middle Earth.

I'm not saying we go full Orlando Bloom "elves don't understand death", but remember, Arwen is born in Year 241 of the Third Age, after the last major war involving elves, and for her whole life both Rivendell and Lothlorien have been peaceful and safe. Most of the warfare and danger of the third age will have been, for her, like war in the Middle East to Americans: heartbreaking and concerning, but not impacting our daily lives.

The capture and marring of Celebrian would have been the first time evil really impacted Arwen directly, and she still might not fully understand it. She knows her mother was hurt, but why, she might ask, didn't it end when her brothers rescued her mother? Why did her mother have to go away again? What sort of healing does Lorien offer that Rivendell and Lothlorien can't?

Asking that question not only sets up Miriel, but Frodo later on, and increases Arwen's understanding of what exactly she's giving up when she chooses to remain in Middle Earth.
 
Marielle said:
If we're going to emphasize Miriel's fading, it might be better to bring the attention back to Celebrian, rather than Arwen's mentor. Flashback is an option, but so is a conversation between Arwen and her grandparents in which she confesses how she doesn't quite understand why her mother was unable to be healed in Middle Earth.

I'm not saying we go full Orlando Bloom "elves don't understand death", but remember, Arwen is born in Year 241 of the Third Age, after the last major war involving elves, and for her whole life both Rivendell and Lothlorien have been peaceful and safe. Most of the warfare and danger of the third age will have been, for her, like war in the Middle East to Americans: heartbreaking and concerning, but not impacting our daily lives.

The capture and marring of Celebrian would have been the first time evil really impacted Arwen directly, and she still might not fully understand it. She knows her mother was hurt, but why, she might ask, didn't it end when her brothers rescued her mother? Why did her mother have to go away again? What sort of healing does Lorien offer that Rivendell and Lothlorien can't?

Asking that question not only sets up Miriel, but Frodo later on, and increases Arwen's understanding of what exactly she's giving up when she chooses to remain in Middle Earth.
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I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. Celeborn in particular would seem to be rather the opposite example, as one who stubbornly stays and refuses to fade. We could certainly provide him as a contrast, but I think he is going to be as equally confused as to why Celebrian couldn't find healing in Middle Earth, or at most academically understand without having experienced the feeling himself. To that end, I think the new character functions pretty well.

One possibility, Nick, to deal with "earning it" is revisiting the character throughout the season. We can show the departure scene if we absolutely must early on, retread the events leading up to it, and then show the scene again with renewed perspective.
 
So, to update [my version - the Hosts will revisit the Frame at a later time]:

Episode 1 - Arwen remembers her mother being captured by orcs, and talks to Celeborn who tells her that fear and loss was always there, from the beginning. They discuss making decisions in the face of fear.

Episode 2 - Arwen greets Galadriel for a festival of the stars in Lothlorien, but the festival is different from the one Arwen remembers from Rivendell - there is no reference to Elbereth in the songs of the elves of Lorien. Arwen discusses her surprise with Celeborn and Galadriel. Arwen's friend and companion is introduced.

Episode 3 - Arwen and her friend discuss the friend's reasons for leaving Middle Earth, and they say their goodbyes.

Episode 4 - Arwen looks into the Mirror of Galadriel and witnesses the rescue of her mother by her brothers. She tells Celeborn that the knowledge doesn't help as much as she thought it would.

Episode 5 - Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir come to visit, and they discuss their reasons for delaying their departure from Middle Earth. (They stick around for multiple episodes.)

Episode 6 - Celebrían's lingering sickness and decision to depart Middle Earth is shown in parallel to Míriel fading after the birth of Fëanor. Flashback of Elrond treating the wounded Celebrían in Rivendell. We will hear Galadriel's perspective.

(Also incorporate):
A visitor to Lothlorien (Gandalf? Radagast?) alerts the elves to a menace faced by the Men along the River. Arwen rides out to give them aid and help them conquer their fear.

Galadriel (in flashback) aiding the Rohirrim.
 
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The parallel between Celebrian and Míriel is obvious. I like it - but I wonder, will it be too much, when placed side by side in a tv series episode? Two people fading and passing away, is there a risk that the parallel is actually too close? Two complementary stories add depth, but what happens when we tell two rather similar stories at almost the same time, demanding the same degree of empathy in both cases? I really don't like asking these questions, but somehow I feel someone has to.
 
I do see the risk of it being a little on the nose, but it does allow Arwen to ask the question of "Might Celebrian also find no rest in Valinor?"

And, instead of it being a situation that Arwen is going through herself, it is something that we flash back to. Instead of it appearing contrived, it is quite natural. We all do that when we hear stories to which we relate.
 
I think the two work well together and if they are told in parallel (the frame characters not telling the Miriel story) and let the two unfold we end up with a dichotomy where Celebrian had to leave Middle Earth to find rest in Valinor, but Miriel could find no rest in Valinor. This will help to cloud the issue of "leaving for Valinor" and not make it clear cut with no right of wrong answer which is what we want. We want different perspectives to make it a complex issue as we know that Arwen's fate will be different to her kin for complex reasons.
 
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