Haleth

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Catherine Karina Chmiel (or Kasiopeia, or Katarzyna Chmiel-Gugulska) has two images of the meeting of Caranthir and Haleth:

1590200795343.png

One thing I love about this image (aside from that gorgeous horse!) is that Haleth, though lower than Caranthir, is clearly self-assured and holding her own. Her personality comes through in that hand on the hip and the way she looks up at him. I am not surprised to see her clothing is not as fancy as Caranthir's - it looks like a hodge podge of things tied onto her. Her hair is loose and messy (like the horse!).

This second image is more a character study than a full scene, and it has similarities while not being the same image:

1590201057677.png

Now, here, Caranthir is not on a horse, so his height alone is allowing him to loom over Haleth. Also, she's better armored here, though clearly still beat-up second hand armor. Again, her facial expression and body language is all 'no quarter given.'


Whenever I think of Haleth, I think of these images and this artwork.

 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Catherine Karina Chmiel (or Kasiopeia, or Katarzyna Chmiel-Gugulska) has two images of the meeting of Caranthir and Haleth:

View attachment 2902

One thing I love about this image (aside from that gorgeous horse!) is that Haleth, though lower than Caranthir, is clearly self-assured and holding her own. Her personality comes through in that hand on the hip and the way she looks up at him. I am not surprised to see her clothing is not as fancy as Caranthir's - it looks like a hodge podge of things tied onto her. Her hair is loose and messy (like the horse!).

This second image is more a character study than a full scene, and it has similarities while not being the same image:

View attachment 2903

Now, here, Caranthir is not on a horse, so his height alone is allowing him to loom over Haleth. Also, she's better armored here, though clearly still beat-up second hand armor. Again, her facial expression and body language is all 'no quarter given.'


Whenever I think of Haleth, I think of these images and this artwork.

What is she doing to her sword?!?!?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I saw a list somewhere, something like ‘Who’s acting tough in movies but isn’t so tough in real life, and who’s actually tough’, and I think Gina Carano was one of the actually tough actresses, the real deal.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
What is she doing to her sword?!?!?
Planting a sword like that has interesting connotations. It simultaneously shows that she’s ready for action at a moment’s notice (picking up a sword is quicker than drawing it out of a scabbard, watch Kikuchiyo planting five or six swords in the ground to prepare for the final battle in Seven Samurai) and thematically that she’s standoffish, that she‘s willing to hold her position and won’t back down.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Planting a sword like that has interesting connotations. It simultaneously shows that she’s ready for action at a moment’s notice (picking up a sword is quicker than drawing it out of a scabbard) and thematically that she’s standoffish, that she‘s willing to hold her position and won’t back down.
It also shows that she doesn't regard her sword very highly. ;)
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I am definitely against casting someone 'waif-like' as Haleth. She should be somewhat sturdy looking.

How about Danay Garcia? She's in her 30's, about 5'7", and appeared in Prison Break and Fear the Walking Dead. I could see her projecting an air of confidence and self-assurance.

 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
By waif you mean the GoT character and Arya i guess?

I have to say i'd like the waif rather than Arya, because i found her really dark and intimidating.I also do think that Maisie Williams has aged since and is a good Actress...

I certainly would not want Haleth as an arya-like character.But a young woman who is not (yet!) Very experienced and suddenly finds herself in the position to be accepted as leader of her tribe would be ONE possible interpretation of her character.

Seeing her as an already middle-aged woman who already IS an acknowledged Amazon and an experienced warrioress is another possible interpretation.

It depends, i guess, where wevwish to start with her ind how we want her character to develop... also considering we watch her age and die probably, so i guess at one point she might be an old woman - wizened crone or aged warrioress or both , we decide.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I think we will probably use one actress, and the story of Haleth as it has been discussed does not involve ageing and passing away, just her life between the Stockade fight and setting down in Brethil - not many years.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, sorry, 'waif' just means a skinny little wispy girl. Someone with a very slight, petite build. Also associated with homeless orphans living on the street, so underfed levels of skinny.

I know that there is a tendency to cast young women who look like that in action hero roles. So, you get Summer Glau as River Tam and Sarah Michelle Geller as Buffy the Vampire Slayer (both Joss Whedon projects). And, it's fine - in both cases, their physical abilities are not based on their bodies, but upon a supernatural ability gifted to them. It's meant to be disconcerting that someone who looks like they do can fight as effectively as we see them fight, against opponents who are much larger/bulkier than they are. Summer Glau as a terminator works just fine.

But for Haleth, I would like her to have some mass to her. She doesn't have to be overly bulky or anything, but she shouldn't look like you could just knock her over with a feather. The former MMA-fighter was an interesting suggestion. As long as she can look 'sturdy' I'll be okay with it.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Oh, sorry, 'waif' just means a skinny little wispy girl. Someone with a very slight, petite build. Also associated with homeless orphans living on the street, so underfed levels of skinny.

I know that there is a tendency to cast young women who look like that in action hero roles. So, you get Summer Glau as River Tam and Sarah Michelle Geller as Buffy the Vampire Slayer (both Joss Whedon projects). And, it's fine - in both cases, their physical abilities are not based on their bodies, but upon a supernatural ability gifted to them. It's meant to be disconcerting that someone who looks like they do can fight as effectively as we see them fight, against opponents who are much larger/bulkier than they are. Summer Glau as a terminator works just fine.

But for Haleth, I would like her to have some mass to her. She doesn't have to be overly bulky or anything, but she shouldn't look like you could just knock her over with a feather. The former MMA-fighter was an interesting suggestion. As long as she can look 'sturdy' I'll be okay with it.
She looks pretty sturdy, she went head-to-head with Colossus in Deadpool and was winning.

Contrast with a more traditional acrobatic style associated with female film characters like Black Widow.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, the Black Widow/Hawkeye fight scene was *also* directed by Joss Whedon. So, while that is fine for what it is, I would prefer we not go in that direction with Haleth. Haleth is badass. She doesn't have any magical abilities or enhancements. Everything she accomplishes is with her muscles and her will...so she'll need to have some muscle. I agree that the fighting style for the Angel Dust character is more 'brawler' and brute strength. But again - that's magical super powered stuff where you can pick up someone massive and throw them through a wall just cause. You don't need to look tough to pull off a fight scene like that, because physics already doesn't apply. Our challenge will be to choreograph fight scenes for Haleth that make it look like the character can really and truly do those things in 'the real world.'
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Actually i did not think of it, but for sure you're right... the girl-warrior has become kind of a trope...

But that was not what i was thinking of, i was thinking of Haleth starting as the "average woman" who does come from her tribes "stirps regia" but is not a professional warrior or fighter to begin with... she is a huntress, does come from a hardy woodland or nomad tribe-sure! But her people... they are no soldiers, nothing to compare with the Noldor or the dwarves... yet they make their stand and get the elves to show them some respect. I always thought Haleth led through strength of character and charisma rather than muscle...

But on the other hand we get told she actually WAS a reknowned amazon and surrounded herself with a bodyguard of warrior-women... so there might be something about that.Still... when i do look at most women i know who practice martial arts or fencing... they tend to be slim and average characters, trained -for sure -but mostly not very tall or sturdy.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
St. Joan of Arc is an interesting historical figure. And not just because she's a woman who led a nation's army at the age of 19, winning all but one of her battles, either. She has captured the imagination of many, including people you wouldn't expect to be interested in her. Shakespeare wrote of her disparagingly, making her out to be a liar, a harlot, and a laughing stock who would say anything to save her life. Naturally, this enemy of the English wasn't going to be treated very fairly in his version of her! (We have the transcript of her trial; we know what she said.) But she also captured the imagination of Mark Twain, who wrote a practically hagiagraphical biography of her, praising her at every turn. This is...somewhat surprising...coming from the author of 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court,' since he was rather unfair and disparaging of people from the time of 'feudalism' in that novel. Joan of Arc definitely got a free pass from him, as few people did - the man had a sharp tongue. And then there was George Bernard Shaw, who wrote the play "Saint Joan," where he also praised her, though identified her as someone who could only be safely sainted centuries after she had died. He was at pains to downplay the mystical element of what she did, giving her full credit.

I obviously see some of Joan of Arc in Haleth - a young charismatic military leader. But we specifically wanted to emphasize the practical side of her, making her down to earth. Haleth won't have any visions. But Haleth, like Joan, will start out as a 'farm girl,' and there's a lot of that in the Joan of Arc artwork. For instance:



Here she is as a barefoot visionary in sloppy, rough clothing. Mostly, we see her in full armor, though.




And how is she portrayed on film?

Mostly like this:

Leelee Sobieski

Ingrid Bergman


And why yes, this is St. Therese of Liseux dressed up as St. Joan of Arc for a play put on in her convent.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Are we sure that Haleth will start out as a farm girl, and not learn to use weapons and fight until she's grown up? I think we have to see the culture of her people as one in which everyone learns how to defend themselves from an early age. Maybe she isn't an accomplished military leader from the start, but she should know how to use an axe, and probably a spear. So she'd be sort of a farm girl, but something of a shield-maiden as well.
1590480959605.png
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
St. Joan of Arc is an interesting historical figure. And not just because she's a woman who led a nation's army at the age of 19, winning all but one of her battles, either. She has captured the imagination of many, including people you wouldn't expect to be interested in her. Shakespeare wrote of her disparagingly, making her out to be a liar, a harlot, and a laughing stock who would say anything to save her life. Naturally, this enemy of the English wasn't going to be treated very fairly in his version of her! (We have the transcript of her trial; we know what she said.) But she also captured the imagination of Mark Twain, who wrote a practically hagiagraphical biography of her, praising her at every turn. This is...somewhat surprising...coming from the author of 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court,' since he was rather unfair and disparaging of people from the time of 'feudalism' in that novel. Joan of Arc definitely got a free pass from him, as few people did - the man had a sharp tongue. And then there was George Bernard Shaw, who wrote the play "Saint Joan," where he also praised her, though identified her as someone who could only be safely sainted centuries after she had died. He was at pains to downplay the mystical element of what she did, giving her full credit.

I obviously see some of Joan of Arc in Haleth - a young charismatic military leader. But we specifically wanted to emphasize the practical side of her, making her down to earth. Haleth won't have any visions. But Haleth, like Joan, will start out as a 'farm girl,' and there's a lot of that in the Joan of Arc artwork. For instance:



Here she is as a barefoot visionary in sloppy, rough clothing. Mostly, we see her in full armor, though.




And how is she portrayed on film?

Mostly like this:

Leelee Sobieski

Ingrid Bergman


And why yes, this is St. Therese of Liseux dressed up as St. Joan of Arc for a play put on in her convent.
And this is how she looked in The Hollow Crown: Henry VI Part 1

Laura Frances-Morgan
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So at what point in Haleth's life are we going to introduce her? She should be no younger than 20 since Haldar is old enough to sire children, the book says she is 34 at the Caranthir incident, but other than that we'll have to sort out.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, we may introduce her as a child (so minor role for a child actress in a scene early in the episode, but something you'd let the director of that episode cast). But yes, for the stockade battle, she and her brother are meant to be about 35. We may make her a little bit younger, but I agree that she shouldn't be a teen. We will want the same actress to portray her in any future episodes, which means she'd have to look old enough to be mature in the Brethil scenes, even if the actress is the same age across roles.

So, probably we're looking for someone in the 25-40 age range (ie, typical elf-range) to depict Haleth.
 
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