Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
To watch:
S04E02 Script Discussion
- Thread starter Nicholas Palazzo
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Is there a particular decision you are asking about? I have not yet had a chance to clean my notes up for posting.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
e.g.: At what point in the episode is Fingolfin declared King?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
At the end of the episode.
Villain Protagonist:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainProtagonist
As Nick mentioned at the 46 minute mark of the Script Discussion, there is a TV Tropes page for villain protagonists, which is what happens when the story focuses on the actions of a character who is going to be condemned/proven wrong within the story. We have built up Curufin as a well-meaning antagonist whose efforts to rectify the divisions of the Noldor (not necessarily heal them....) directly lead to Maedhros' decision to acknowledge Fingolfin as High King.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainProtagonist
As Nick mentioned at the 46 minute mark of the Script Discussion, there is a TV Tropes page for villain protagonists, which is what happens when the story focuses on the actions of a character who is going to be condemned/proven wrong within the story. We have built up Curufin as a well-meaning antagonist whose efforts to rectify the divisions of the Noldor (not necessarily heal them....) directly lead to Maedhros' decision to acknowledge Fingolfin as High King.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Ok, this is by no means a final draft, but I've cleaned up my notes somewhat:
Teaser
Bilbo, Balin, and Gandalf are in a dwarven inn in the Anduin Valley. Balin is complaining that they will have to travel all the way around Mirkwood. They hear a voice angrily yell Gandalf’s name. Dis, is apparently the owner of the voice, and she unloads on Gandalf, getting right up in his face. She blames him for the destruction of her family. The concept of weregild is addressed.
Act I
Scene 1
Maedhros in convalescence, debriefing with Maglor and Curufin. Maglor wants to downplay the conflict, while Curufin wants to punch it up. Curufin is very clear that Fingolfin was blaming them for Fingon’s disappearance.
Scene 2
Fingolfin in council, Fingon and Finrod trying to encourage making a conciliatory gesture. Fingolfin is upset with Fingon for being foolhardy. Turgon reminds them that they are all responsible for their betrayal at Losgar. Galadriel takes the opportunity to put herself forward to visit with the Sindar. Thingol is her uncle, and it seems natural since her brothers will likely be occupied with the situation closer to hand.
Scene 3
Thingol is outside Menegroth with Beleg and Mablung, receiving Norn, who has arrived with a shipment. Norn is pleased with how business is booming since the rising of the sun, and is very happy with the pack animals with which the Elves have provided them. The four start talking about the news from the north. Beleg and Mablung seem to agree with Celeborn that the newcomers are sent by the Valar to help in the fight. Thingol is incredulous of this. Asks if that is what the Noldor _said_. “What else would they be here for?” Thingol doesn’t have a good answer for this, but he has met the Valar in Valinor, and this seems like strange news. Norn is immediately suspicious.
Scene 4
Galadriel talks to Aredhel before she leaves. Aredhel is uncomfortable with Galadriel’s obsession with politicking.
Act II
Scene 5
Curufin and Celegorm go with a shipment of supplies to Fingolfin’s people. Finrod thanks them for their help. Curufin get a few pieces of information about the political layout of Fingolfin’s host. Curufin gets Celegorm to invite Finrod hunting.
Scene 6
Maedhros changes the patrol policy from large groups to small parties of rangers. He is concerned that Maglor’s previous, safer policy may have led Fingolfin’s host to believe they are preparing for war.
Scene 7
Galadriel travel montage, then she arrives in Menegroth. Formal greetings and audience with Thingol. Thingol welcomes the Noldor to Beleriand. Grants them free travel outside of the bounds of Doriath. Melian is not present. Thingol asks what brings the Noldor, and Galadriel say they are here to fight Morgoth.
Scene 8
Morgoth leaving Angband. A new theme has arisen and I have work to do. He will be gone for some time. No one is left in charge, but it is made clear that his chiefs should be productive.
Act III
Scene 9
Hunt with Curufin, Celegorm, and Finrod. Celegorm gives Finrod a horse, no strings attached. Conversation turns to Fingolfin. Fingolfin needs to be in charge. We are squandering an opportunity. Finrod confronts them about the ships. He’d like to trust them but he can’t. Celegorm says that he won’t speak ill of the dead, but Maedhros defied Feanor and stood apart from the ships. Celegorm and Curufin exchange a look where Curufin nods approvingly, demonstrating that these are truly his words.
Scene 10
Thingol’s Feast. Luthien performs, Galadriel is present. Norn is staring at her from across the room, and Mablung sits beside him and suggests that Norn is smitten with their Noldorin guest, and Norn laughs, but then tells him the story of the Petty Dwarves and their exile. Melian and Galadriel make eye contact, and Melian leaves quietly.
Scene 11
Finrod presents his Curufin’s case to his brothers. Fingolfin is willing to put revenge ahead of everything else. He’s driving towards a kinslaying, which the sons of Finarfin will be guilty of if they do not do anything about it. Angrod is furious that Finrod is even considering listening to the Feanorians and storms out. ---- Fingolfin is going over deployments, when Angrod bursts in with something to tell.
Scene 12
Maglor speaks with Maedhros in person, apologizes for not rescuing him. It should have been him. Maedhros says that it was Fingon’s destiny to do so, and that only he could have done it.
Act IV
Scene 13
Fingolfin goes out with his army to confront the Feanorians. They march up to the Feanorian camp, and Fingolfin goes through the litany the the wrongs they have done, including Maedhros’ attempt to dodge responsibility for the burning of the ships and subvert the loyalty of his own host.
Scene 14
(Evening) Galadriel goes into a garden/grotto with nightingales, following the sound of Melian’s song. She has entered Faerie. She comes upon Melian filling a large flower from a small fall of water. Melian doesn’t turn towards her, but says that few come here. The Sindar say that this is the center of all that protects Doriath. Galadriel says that perhaps they don’t understand what the true source of Doriath’s power is. Melian stares at the flower in her hand for a time. Galadriel asks what it is she is holding, and Melian explains that it shows the truth to those who drink it, but to those whose minds and hearts are clouded, the truth can bring great pain. She places the flower on a small table (which wasn’t visible in any prior shot) and smiles. Galadriel thinks that this is something she can handle and drinks from the flower. She then has a sequence of visions, kinslaying, her mother’s death, the Helcaraxe. We leave the vision, but she does not. Her eyes are opened and she seems unable to break free.
Scene 15
Maedhros walks out of the camp alone. He is armed and armored and wearing Feanor’s crown. He is clearly struggling, not fully healed, but he seems to be standing defiantly against Fingolfin and his army. His brothers look on from the walls behind him. Maedhros answers the charges, and states that he will not be held responsible for the crimes of his father. Valinor is behind us. Aqualonde is behind us. Our roads, both your and mine are behind us. If we do not find a way to move forward together, our only reward will be Morgoth’s laughter. You, are the eldest of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise. Maedhros draws his sword with his left hand (hilt toward Fingolfin). Fingolfin seems to be getting ready for a fight, but Maedhros drives his sword into the ground and takes the crown from his head, offering it to Fingolfin. He offers his allegiance along with it, and that of the sons Feanor. Fingolfin is shocked by this, but then takes the crown and speaks of how the old wrongs are not necessarily forgiven, but we can put them in the past and speak of them no more. The voices of the Noldor will once again be one, and Morgoth will hear them and quail in his hole.
Scene 16
Melian lays Galadriel in a bed, and she seems to be resting quietly. Thingol is present and asks Melian if she will be alright, Melian says that she is sleeping peacefully, but a cloud lies on her heart. Thingol asks if they can trust them [the Noldor]. Melian says that a darkness lies behind them. But if we reject their friendship, darkness will lie before us.
Teaser
The boys are getting back on the road, and discover that, of course, Dis is leaving at the same time. Balin walks over to her to invite her to join them. The conversation is not understood by the audience, but heated voices are heard. While they are talking, Bilbo and Gandalf have a heart-to-heart. While Bilbo’s companions knew what they were getting into, Gandalf admits that it is possible he had not considered the cost to those who did not make the journey. Balin returns to deliver Dis’ response. She agrees to share the road, but insists that he, “and Balin quotes,” keep his wizard away from her.
Teaser
Bilbo, Balin, and Gandalf are in a dwarven inn in the Anduin Valley. Balin is complaining that they will have to travel all the way around Mirkwood. They hear a voice angrily yell Gandalf’s name. Dis, is apparently the owner of the voice, and she unloads on Gandalf, getting right up in his face. She blames him for the destruction of her family. The concept of weregild is addressed.
Act I
Scene 1
Maedhros in convalescence, debriefing with Maglor and Curufin. Maglor wants to downplay the conflict, while Curufin wants to punch it up. Curufin is very clear that Fingolfin was blaming them for Fingon’s disappearance.
Scene 2
Fingolfin in council, Fingon and Finrod trying to encourage making a conciliatory gesture. Fingolfin is upset with Fingon for being foolhardy. Turgon reminds them that they are all responsible for their betrayal at Losgar. Galadriel takes the opportunity to put herself forward to visit with the Sindar. Thingol is her uncle, and it seems natural since her brothers will likely be occupied with the situation closer to hand.
Scene 3
Thingol is outside Menegroth with Beleg and Mablung, receiving Norn, who has arrived with a shipment. Norn is pleased with how business is booming since the rising of the sun, and is very happy with the pack animals with which the Elves have provided them. The four start talking about the news from the north. Beleg and Mablung seem to agree with Celeborn that the newcomers are sent by the Valar to help in the fight. Thingol is incredulous of this. Asks if that is what the Noldor _said_. “What else would they be here for?” Thingol doesn’t have a good answer for this, but he has met the Valar in Valinor, and this seems like strange news. Norn is immediately suspicious.
Scene 4
Galadriel talks to Aredhel before she leaves. Aredhel is uncomfortable with Galadriel’s obsession with politicking.
Act II
Scene 5
Curufin and Celegorm go with a shipment of supplies to Fingolfin’s people. Finrod thanks them for their help. Curufin get a few pieces of information about the political layout of Fingolfin’s host. Curufin gets Celegorm to invite Finrod hunting.
Scene 6
Maedhros changes the patrol policy from large groups to small parties of rangers. He is concerned that Maglor’s previous, safer policy may have led Fingolfin’s host to believe they are preparing for war.
Scene 7
Galadriel travel montage, then she arrives in Menegroth. Formal greetings and audience with Thingol. Thingol welcomes the Noldor to Beleriand. Grants them free travel outside of the bounds of Doriath. Melian is not present. Thingol asks what brings the Noldor, and Galadriel say they are here to fight Morgoth.
Scene 8
Morgoth leaving Angband. A new theme has arisen and I have work to do. He will be gone for some time. No one is left in charge, but it is made clear that his chiefs should be productive.
Act III
Scene 9
Hunt with Curufin, Celegorm, and Finrod. Celegorm gives Finrod a horse, no strings attached. Conversation turns to Fingolfin. Fingolfin needs to be in charge. We are squandering an opportunity. Finrod confronts them about the ships. He’d like to trust them but he can’t. Celegorm says that he won’t speak ill of the dead, but Maedhros defied Feanor and stood apart from the ships. Celegorm and Curufin exchange a look where Curufin nods approvingly, demonstrating that these are truly his words.
Scene 10
Thingol’s Feast. Luthien performs, Galadriel is present. Norn is staring at her from across the room, and Mablung sits beside him and suggests that Norn is smitten with their Noldorin guest, and Norn laughs, but then tells him the story of the Petty Dwarves and their exile. Melian and Galadriel make eye contact, and Melian leaves quietly.
Scene 11
Finrod presents his Curufin’s case to his brothers. Fingolfin is willing to put revenge ahead of everything else. He’s driving towards a kinslaying, which the sons of Finarfin will be guilty of if they do not do anything about it. Angrod is furious that Finrod is even considering listening to the Feanorians and storms out. ---- Fingolfin is going over deployments, when Angrod bursts in with something to tell.
Scene 12
Maglor speaks with Maedhros in person, apologizes for not rescuing him. It should have been him. Maedhros says that it was Fingon’s destiny to do so, and that only he could have done it.
Act IV
Scene 13
Fingolfin goes out with his army to confront the Feanorians. They march up to the Feanorian camp, and Fingolfin goes through the litany the the wrongs they have done, including Maedhros’ attempt to dodge responsibility for the burning of the ships and subvert the loyalty of his own host.
Scene 14
(Evening) Galadriel goes into a garden/grotto with nightingales, following the sound of Melian’s song. She has entered Faerie. She comes upon Melian filling a large flower from a small fall of water. Melian doesn’t turn towards her, but says that few come here. The Sindar say that this is the center of all that protects Doriath. Galadriel says that perhaps they don’t understand what the true source of Doriath’s power is. Melian stares at the flower in her hand for a time. Galadriel asks what it is she is holding, and Melian explains that it shows the truth to those who drink it, but to those whose minds and hearts are clouded, the truth can bring great pain. She places the flower on a small table (which wasn’t visible in any prior shot) and smiles. Galadriel thinks that this is something she can handle and drinks from the flower. She then has a sequence of visions, kinslaying, her mother’s death, the Helcaraxe. We leave the vision, but she does not. Her eyes are opened and she seems unable to break free.
Scene 15
Maedhros walks out of the camp alone. He is armed and armored and wearing Feanor’s crown. He is clearly struggling, not fully healed, but he seems to be standing defiantly against Fingolfin and his army. His brothers look on from the walls behind him. Maedhros answers the charges, and states that he will not be held responsible for the crimes of his father. Valinor is behind us. Aqualonde is behind us. Our roads, both your and mine are behind us. If we do not find a way to move forward together, our only reward will be Morgoth’s laughter. You, are the eldest of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise. Maedhros draws his sword with his left hand (hilt toward Fingolfin). Fingolfin seems to be getting ready for a fight, but Maedhros drives his sword into the ground and takes the crown from his head, offering it to Fingolfin. He offers his allegiance along with it, and that of the sons Feanor. Fingolfin is shocked by this, but then takes the crown and speaks of how the old wrongs are not necessarily forgiven, but we can put them in the past and speak of them no more. The voices of the Noldor will once again be one, and Morgoth will hear them and quail in his hole.
Scene 16
Melian lays Galadriel in a bed, and she seems to be resting quietly. Thingol is present and asks Melian if she will be alright, Melian says that she is sleeping peacefully, but a cloud lies on her heart. Thingol asks if they can trust them [the Noldor]. Melian says that a darkness lies behind them. But if we reject their friendship, darkness will lie before us.
Teaser
The boys are getting back on the road, and discover that, of course, Dis is leaving at the same time. Balin walks over to her to invite her to join them. The conversation is not understood by the audience, but heated voices are heard. While they are talking, Bilbo and Gandalf have a heart-to-heart. While Bilbo’s companions knew what they were getting into, Gandalf admits that it is possible he had not considered the cost to those who did not make the journey. Balin returns to deliver Dis’ response. She agrees to share the road, but insists that he, “and Balin quotes,” keep his wizard away from her.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
This is very good.
I like how Scene 8 looks. That's a good way for him to go.
So much is there in scene 14+16 that touches many of the main stories.
I like how Scene 8 looks. That's a good way for him to go.
So much is there in scene 14+16 that touches many of the main stories.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest, this is up there in my opinion as one of the top five strongest episodes we've done, and I have a feeling that it may be due to how comparatively little of the text we are covering here. The events that take place in the book are a single paragraph, only about four sentences. This is one of the reasons why I have pushed for us to take our time and not try to gobble up too much of the story too quickly.
Scene 12 is inspired by this painting by Jenny Dolfen:
"Forgive me, my brother"
http://www.epilogue.net/art/23648-forgive-me-my-brother
I was hoping we could fit in a 'character moment' between Maglor and Maedhros that wasn't based on the political question of who was in charge of the Fëanoreans or Noldor, but more on their relationship as brothers. And in that scene, we get to see a little bit of the 'spark' that is keeping Maedhros going after his ordeal with his belief in destiny.
"Forgive me, my brother"
http://www.epilogue.net/art/23648-forgive-me-my-brother
I was hoping we could fit in a 'character moment' between Maglor and Maedhros that wasn't based on the political question of who was in charge of the Fëanoreans or Noldor, but more on their relationship as brothers. And in that scene, we get to see a little bit of the 'spark' that is keeping Maedhros going after his ordeal with his belief in destiny.
Season 4
Episode 2: Title?
Protagonist: Curufin
Theme: Misguided ambition
Summary: The two camps of the Noldor take steps to resolve the issues between them, but they're not all focused on the same goal. Galadriel visits Doriath and meets Thingol's court...including Melian.
A-plot: Curufin seeks to win over Finrod's contingent.
B-plot: Maedhros recuperates and unifies the camps
C-plot: Galadriel visits Doriath
D-plot: Angband (Morgoth departs)
Characters: Maedhros, Maglor, Curufin, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Galadriel, Aredhel, Thingol, Beleg, Mablung, Norn, Celegorm, Finrod, Morgoth, court of Angband, Lúthien, Melian, Menegroth court, Angrod
Frame: Bilbo, Gandalf, Balin, Dís
Episode 2: Title?
Protagonist: Curufin
Theme: Misguided ambition
Summary: The two camps of the Noldor take steps to resolve the issues between them, but they're not all focused on the same goal. Galadriel visits Doriath and meets Thingol's court...including Melian.
A-plot: Curufin seeks to win over Finrod's contingent.
B-plot: Maedhros recuperates and unifies the camps
C-plot: Galadriel visits Doriath
D-plot: Angband (Morgoth departs)
Characters: Maedhros, Maglor, Curufin, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Galadriel, Aredhel, Thingol, Beleg, Mablung, Norn, Celegorm, Finrod, Morgoth, court of Angband, Lúthien, Melian, Menegroth court, Angrod
Frame: Bilbo, Gandalf, Balin, Dís
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I mean, it is true, but not necessarily something you want to tell the audience with a title card.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
What about leaving the question mark in? Haha
Episode 2: Unification?
Probably too dumb.
Episode 2: Unification?
Probably too dumb.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Here is my script for Episode 2. Please let me know your opinions and suggestions.
I wasn't sure what the title of this one should be.
I had Celeborn go with Galadriel to Doriath so he would not be with the Noldor since they were frequently discussing matters the Sindar should not yet learn about. I also changed the Galadriel travel montage into a scene where Celeborn explains the Girdle of Melian to set up Galadriel's meeting with Melian at the end. Since Celeborn needs to be back with the Noldor for the next episode, I had him go back while Galadriel was with Melian.
I think there was discussion somewhere about calling the Petty-Dwarves something other than Petty-Dwarves, but I could not remember what was decided, so I just had Norn use the Sindarin name for them.
I went ahead and made Diriel the besain of the Feanorian camp, but I can change that if we decide that Maglor's wife is in Beleriand. I wasn't sure who it should be for Fingolfin's camp, but I gave Aredhel a prominent role in accepting the gift.
I wasn't sure what the title of this one should be.
I had Celeborn go with Galadriel to Doriath so he would not be with the Noldor since they were frequently discussing matters the Sindar should not yet learn about. I also changed the Galadriel travel montage into a scene where Celeborn explains the Girdle of Melian to set up Galadriel's meeting with Melian at the end. Since Celeborn needs to be back with the Noldor for the next episode, I had him go back while Galadriel was with Melian.
I think there was discussion somewhere about calling the Petty-Dwarves something other than Petty-Dwarves, but I could not remember what was decided, so I just had Norn use the Sindarin name for them.
I went ahead and made Diriel the besain of the Feanorian camp, but I can change that if we decide that Maglor's wife is in Beleriand. I wasn't sure who it should be for Fingolfin's camp, but I gave Aredhel a prominent role in accepting the gift.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I like it a lot , but one thing immediately sprung to my mind:
Four arrows for a sack
of grain. Ten for a jar of honey. Thirty-
five for a donkey.
Those seem damn low prices for arrowheads and damn high prices for donkeys and grain!
I think a dozen arrowheads for 2-4 donkeys are a realistic price, possibly less if we assume the dwarves produce very high quality, 12 arrowheads can also easily be 200-300 l grain, depending on type, quality and how great the need is.
I'd gladly try to research realistic prices for honey if you tell me how much one jar is in weight!
Four arrows for a sack
of grain. Ten for a jar of honey. Thirty-
five for a donkey.
Those seem damn low prices for arrowheads and damn high prices for donkeys and grain!
I think a dozen arrowheads for 2-4 donkeys are a realistic price, possibly less if we assume the dwarves produce very high quality, 12 arrowheads can also easily be 200-300 l grain, depending on type, quality and how great the need is.
I'd gladly try to research realistic prices for honey if you tell me how much one jar is in weight!
Last edited: