Script Discussion S04E09

How big is tol sirion?

It's not a city like the later Minas Tirith it's just a very important border fortress, possibly THE most important one because the Sirion is the key into western beleriand!

Small castles had 5-50 inhabitants, large ones garissons of 2000 and more pluss staff and families. As a rule of thumb you usually need a superior strength of tenth as many besiegers in comparison to the besieged... and it reads as if tol sirion was de facto overrun!

Even if tol sirion housed 4000 elves, which i guess could be a realistic number, Morgoth's host could easily have been 40000 man strong, maybe fewer because he has Trolls and demons which make up a common orc/elf warrior by far (not every elf is a Legolas or Glorfindel).

I'd like to see the terrain of Tol Sirion to be better able to imagine and judge the castle's look and size.
 
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Haerangil said:
Most of the time the orcs lose 10 to 1... JRRT usually fails to explain why... because he NEvER portraits the orcs as useless goons like peter jackson did, he describes them as very capable, well trained, well equiped, disciplined soldiery.Yet they still almost always lose... even if they outnumber their enemies by far. I guess technically it's because... they're the bad guys so they just HAVE to lose, as unrealistic as it seems...

If i had to explain why i'd have to think of points such as

1 - they're slaves, their enemies are free, so the elves fight for a greater cause while the or s are driven to battle by the balrogs fiery whips...
2 - every elf is not only a free craftsman and artist but a very well equipped fully trained strong warrior
a lot of orcs are probably only not very good nurtured, under-trained war-slaves, we don't know how many of them are real soldier-orcs and how many are just randomly lift up miners and workers, but i guess it might be the bulk ofvthem
3 - the orcs may be well equipped by the demons of morgoth, but still... the noldor and dwarves are probably the best smiths ever in history so they are still superior equippped fighters
4 - faith. We should not underestimate this factor... the noldor may have left the valar behind, they may have done wrong in a lot of things, yet they still have a very strong faith, they know the valar, they k ow eru, they know mandos, they know their cosmology and fate.the orcs have nothing but their evil master whom they secretly hate but serve only out of fear...
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It seems to me that the Orcs have to be accompanied by something else to get a decisive push to win a battle, be it a Balrog (or two or three), a dragon, or betrayal within the ranks of Men or Elves. However, they will make a bad day for anyone on their own. A combination of all of those equaled a victory for the forces of evil in the Nirnaeth.
 
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Hmm... the entire vale of sirion is a problem... as i see it an army could in theory just besiege the island and so allow any other army to simply bypass through the vale pretty much undisturbed!

If the elves would want to defent the sirion pass they would have to face the enemy with their army in open battle on the fields! Only if that battle was lost they would redraw to the island and then barricade themselves... there possibly are widespread fields and outlying farms and hamlets spread all through the valley around tol sirion...

The elves would probably use the hilly upland north of Tol Sirion for defense and attack... i guess they would continually keep the enemy host under pressure and decimate his numbers in many small hard arttacks and heavy fire because they can so easily redraw into the safe uplands... but such a big army as morgoth probably has... i don't know... they could just outlast them and drive them before into the valley where the elves either have to face open battle or withdraw to the further south or to the island... and we know they did the latter..

All in all it looks as if tol sirion is more a garrison and refuge castle for the surroundings.yet it's function is similar to historical dover castle...
 
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Haerangil said:
Hmm... the entire vale of sirion is a problem... as i see it an army could in theory just besiege the island and so allow any other army to simply bypass through the vale pretty much undisturbed!

If the elves would want to defent the sirion pass they would have to face the enemy with their army in open battle on the fields! Only if that battle was lost they would redraw to the island and then barricade themselves... there possibly are widespread fields and outlying farms and hamlets spread all through the valley around tol sirion...

The elves would probably use the hilly upland north of Tol Sirion for defense and attack... i guess they would continually keep the enemy host under pressure and decimate his numbers in many small hard arttacks and heavy fire because they can so easily redraw into the safe uplands... but such a big army as morgoth probably has... i don't know... they could just outlast them and drive them before into the valley where the elves either have to face open battle or withdraw to the further south or to the island... and we know they did the latter..

All in all it looks as if tol sirion is more a garrison and refuge castle for the surroundings.yet it's function is similar to historical dover castle...
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Yeah, moving the main thrust of the battle to Tol Sirion was a problem, and we had to make some adjustments to deal with that. We certainly couldn't have an open battle that stretched for weeks or even days while we waited for Maedhros to arrive. We had to divide the battle into stages.
 
Well luckily we do not have to show every battle in detail.That was one of the things got actuallly did very well in the early seasons... they left out a lot of battle just showing the ends or scenes shortly after a battle... that worked very well for me.
 
Haerangil said:
Well luckily we do not have to show every battle in detail.That was one of the things got actuallly did very well in the early seasons... they left out a lot of battle just showing the ends or scenes shortly after a battle... that worked very well for me.
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Which battles did we gloss over? I recall discussing four separate battles in quite a bit of detail so far.
 
He is saying that the show Game of Thrones glossed over some early battles. Considering how poorly the showrunners understood planning a battle, that was likely a good choice on their part!
 
Was there any discussion of the sizes of the forces of Orcs in relation to the Elves for the earlier battles?
 
Morgoth had very large orc armies in his Season 3 attacks...but they then got completely decimated. So, I'm not sure if we had numbers or not.
 
MithLuin said:
Morgoth had very large orc armies in his Season 3 attacks...but they then got completely decimated. So, I'm not sure if we had numbers or not.
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Whatever the size of those armies were, Morgoth now has more Orcs. We had Gothmog reporting to him last episode that they have rebuilt their armies to beyond their former strength. Of course, the Orcs are just going to get completely decimated again in this battle.
 
MithLuin said:
He is saying that the show Game of Thrones glossed over some early battles. Considering how poorly the showrunners understood planning a battle, that was likely a good choice on their part!
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Forget battles, they messed up two wars (Living vs the Night King and Daenerys vs Cersei is seen as two separate conflicts).
 
I'll try to explain it:

1. Orcs leave Angband and march south towards the Pass of Sirion. Celegorm observes them exiting Angband and sends word to Maedhros immediately but it takes a couple of days for Maedhros to find out. Maedhros likely has the highest military preparedness of all the Noldor, but his forces are spread out amongst his brothers. Fingolfin/Fingon and Angrod/Aegnor find out while the Orcs are on Ard-Galen, but their armies are closer to hand and they get going sooner. Fingolfin sends word to Turgon, Angrod sends word to Maedhros (the messenger doesn't make it).

2. Turgon marches out of Vinyamar, unaware that an army of Orcs is on it's way there along the coast. Fingolfin leaves a small force behind at an outpost near Eithel Sirion and marches south to pursue the first army of Orcs, joining with Angrod and Aegnor. Finrod sends word to Doriath (it won't get there in time). Maedhros begins the long march across the plain to aid the other Noldor. (We don't see this until later.) Unbeknownst to most of the Noldor, another army of Orcs, (larger than the others) is being led south by Gothmog behind them.

3. The first Orcs arrive at Minas Tirith and begin their assault on the fortress, which will be relieved by Fingolfin & Co. Maedhros and Turgon are still en route.

4. Finfolfin's forces pursue the Orcs into the fens, right into the waiting arms of Gothmog's larger force. Meanwhile, Turgon gets a vision of Vinyamar being attacked and turns back at the pools of Ivrin.

5. Fingolfin's army is enveloped by Gothmog's. It looks bad. It comes out that word never reached Maedhros, Turgon is not coming, and help from Doriath doesn't look good.

6. The cavalry arrives. Literally. Celegorm's horsemen get onto the west side of Gothmog's forces, driving them east into Maedhros' heavy infantry. Seeing his victory turn into a rout, Gothmog immediately vacated. Turgon arrives at Vinyamar to find it under assault with the gate about to fall. As it seems as if he will fail to prevent them from getting into the defenseless city, Cirdan's ship's arrive, showering the causeway up to the gate with arrows.

7. Both attacks are routed and/or destroyed.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I'll try to explain it:

1. Orcs leave Angband and march south towards the Pass of Sirion. Celegorm observes them exiting Angband and sends word to Maedhros immediately but it takes a couple of days for Maedhros to find out. Maedhros likely has the highest military preparedness of all the Noldor, but his forces are spread out amongst his brothers. Fingolfin/Fingon and Angrod/Aegnor find out while the Orcs are on Ard-Galen, but their armies are closer to hand and they get going sooner. Fingolfin sends word to Turgon, Angrod sends word to Maedhros (the messenger doesn't make it).

2. Turgon marches out of Vinyamar, unaware that an army of Orcs is on it's way there along the coast. Fingolfin leaves a small force behind at an outpost near Eithel Sirion and marches south to pursue the first army of Orcs, joining with Angrod and Aegnor. Finrod sends word to Doriath (it won't get there in time). Maedhros begins the long march across the plain to aid the other Noldor. (We don't see this until later.) Unbeknownst to most of the Noldor, another army of Orcs, (larger than the others) is being led south by Gothmog behind them.

3. The first Orcs arrive at Minas Tirith and begin their assault on the fortress, which will be relieved by Fingolfin & Co. Maedhros and Turgon are still en route.

4. Finfolfin's forces pursue the Orcs into the fens, right into the waiting arms of Gothmog's larger force. Meanwhile, Turgon gets a vision of Vinyamar being attacked and turns back at the pools of Ivrin.

5. Fingolfin's army is enveloped by Gothmog's. It looks bad. It comes out that word never reached Maedhros, Turgon is not coming, and help from Doriath doesn't look good.

6. The cavalry arrives. Literally. Celegorm's horsemen get onto the west side of Gothmog's forces, driving them east into Maedhros' heavy infantry. Seeing his victory turn into a rout, Gothmog immediately vacated. Turgon arrives at Vinyamar to find it under assault with the gate about to fall. As it seems as if he will fail to prevent them from getting into the defenseless city, Cirdan's ship's arrive, showering the causeway up to the gate with arrows.

7. Both attacks are routed and/or destroyed.
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@Nicholas Palazzo, are you still having trouble posting the video of this script discussion from Skype?
 
Cool! Sounds like a plan!

Just one more question:

2. Does Gothmog's host also hail from angband maingate/Thangorodrim like the first host? Or do they come from one of the postern gates in the mountains northeast or northwest?
 
Haerangil said:
Cool! Sounds like a plan!

Just one more question:

2. Does Gothmog's host also hail from angband maingate/Thangorodrim like the first host? Or do they come from one of the postern gates in the mountains northeast or northwest?
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Presumably they also come out the main gate. Their exit from Angband is never shown. In the episode, they are first seen by Aredhel and Rhogrin as they pass Barad Eithel.
 
Haerangil said:
Cool! Sounds like a plan!

Just one more question:

2. Does Gothmog's host also hail from angband maingate/Thangorodrim like the first host? Or do they come from one of the postern gates in the mountains northeast or northwest?
Click to expand...

Rhiannon said:
Presumably they also come out the main gate. Their exit from Angband is never shown. In the episode, they are first seen by Aredhel and Rhogrin as they pass Barad Eithel.
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Right, and Rhogrin sets out to warn Fingolfin but gets "cat"napped. Maedhros, having more horses, has a much more up-to-date and accurate intelligence network. He likely knows about Gothmog's army long before Fingolfin is ambushed by them.
 
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