Script Discussion S04E09

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Here is my script for Episode 9.

I included some scenes of Edhellos' recovery while Finrod, Orodreth, and Meril talk about her, just so she wouldn't go from screaming in terror at her rescuers in the last episode to ready to fight in the battle in this episode.

I left Dain's actual arrival in Dale to be part of next episode's frame because I think it will fit better there.

I introduced a lot of minor characters because I needed them to be addressed by name when given commands.

I had a large part of Turgon's army share the parts of his dream with the deserted city and the battering ram so the entire army would not be turning back based on one dream.

I went with 8,000 Orcs for the first army and 12,000 for the second. I can easily change this if those numbers or any of the other numbers seem wrong.

I am no expert in medieval warfare, so please let me know if there are any details that seem unrealistic.
 

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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I think those are realistic numbers... armies could be 1000, 3000, 5000, 10.000, 20.000...men. a roman legion were often 3000 men a foot, cavalry units were much smaller.it's possible that some 20-30.000 men all in all fought at the battle of hastings , some 30.000 men at the battle of tours, the antique battle of thermopylae was huge, maybe involved some 300.000-400.000 men.

As a rule of thumb morgoths and saurons armies often seem to have outnumbered their enemies ten to one and still lost... but the elves are unlikely to increase in number again so fast... every loss is almost inexpabdable.And to be honest... i strongly dislike that "orcs-lose-ten-to-one" rule... that might work with sieges but feels unrealistic for open field warfare.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Hmm... i guess even if the elves had , say another ten thousand men, they could easily lose 2-4 thousand men that way like at hastings... that would be a catastrophy even with the orcs wiped out! If i was the elven commander i'd try as i described many small attacks, using the terrain, then withdraw to the fortress... then an already heavily damaged orc army would have to besiege the island and an unexpected heavy cavalry attack could break them... that would sound like a believable turn.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Hmm... i guess even if the elves had , say another ten thousand men, they could easily lose 2-4 thousand men that way like at hastings... that would be a catastrophy even with the orcs wiped out! If i was the elven commander i'd try as i described many small attacks, using the terrain, then withdraw to the fortress... then an already heavily damaged orc army would have to besiege the island and an unexpected heavy cavalry attack could break them... that would sound like a believable turn.
The problem is that Fingolfin doesn't start out near the fortress, and the Orcs aren't likely to wait around for him to get there.

Had we done the version from the book, and placed the attack at Dorthonion, Fingolfin and Maedhros could have believably arrived around the same time, coordinated, and set up the two-sided attack together. As it is, we had to have Fingolfin's part in the battle be an early development (though he can't arrive ahead of the Orcs), one that turns the battle for a time, but doesn't win it.

The good news is that this version nicely sets up the Feanorian plotline for the following episode and the fact that they need to help the other Noldor be better prepared.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I just don't want to lose sight of how awesome Calaquendi Elves are. Someone upthread was saying that they aren't all "Legolas or Glorfindel". They aren't all Glorfindel, but I contend that the chumpiest Noldo on the field could out-perform Legolas every day of the week at any task you choose. These aren't tired old Third Age Noldor moping through the forests of Eriador. These are fresh from Aman Noldor with the light of the trees still in their eyes. Transport one of these Noldor through time and space to Helm's Deep and their count would be 142, not just 42.

Maybe I'm exaggerating here a bit, but it's not a case where one spearman equals one spearman, and it's not something we can take real life numbers from at any point in history.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Here is basically what happens in the battle without the character interaction. Like I said, I am not an expert in this kind of thing, so please let me know if anything seems improbable.

Orcs come to Minas Tirith. They are noticed by the Feanorians and pursued by Angrod, Aegnor, Fingolfin, and Fingon.

Finrod's forces at Minas Tirith stay on the island and fire arrows at the Orcs as they pass on the shore. Most of the Orcs stay and return fire at the Elves or try to build a bridge to Tol Sirion, but some do get through the Pass.

To lift the siege, Angrod and Aegnor cut around through the forest and come up from the south. Finrod's forces join them, and they drive the Orcs north along the river. To keep the Orcs from moving up into Dorthonion, Fingolfin and Fingon come at them from the east and force them to stay along the river.

The Orcs fleeing from Minas Tirith lead the Elves into the ambush in the Fens, where the second army of Orcs has put up a rudimentary defensive wall. Overall, their goal is to force the Elves southwest, back through the Pass of Sirion, but without allowing them to get a message through to Barad Eithel. I divided the fighting here into three fronts: east, west, and center.

The eastern front is defended by Fingon, Fingolfin, and later Orodreth. Finrod himself joins the fighting towards the end after he brings the message to Fingolfin that the Feanorians are not coming. The Orcs are striking from the east and trying to push the Noldor west towards the river. The Noldor push back against the Orcs, trying to force them east. There are a few charges and counter-charges on this front, and a lot of gaining and losing of ground, particularly the hill that Fingon gets stuck on early in the battle. Just before the Feanorians arrive, the Noldor on this front change tactics and try to force the Orcs west so Orodreth and Fingon can ride around to Barad Eithel.

The western front is defended by Angrod and Aegnor. They are trying to force the Orcs northeast and break through to the northwest to clear a path to Barad Eithel. For a while, the Orcs on this front stay behind their wall. Then, they charge and try to force the Noldor back to and down along the river.

The center is defended by Finrod and Orodreth until he goes to reinforce the eastern front. I don't really see the Elves in the center as facing a separate charge of Orcs; they're just fighting the Orcs on the easternmost side of the western charge and the westernmost side of the eastern charge.

When the Feanorians arrive, they are first seen by Fingon and Orodreth, who have circled around to the east and come north of the entire Orc army. The Feanorian cavalry charges from the northwest, and the Feanorian infantry reinforces the other Noldor from the south. Together, they force the Orcs northeast, back to Angband. Plus, Aredhel and a small force come from Barad Eithel to join the chase back to Angband because I didn't want her to be upset about missing all the action.

It isn't shown, but part of the combined forces of the Noldor are left behind to hunt the Orcs that made it through the Pass before the siege of Minas Tirith was lifted. This gives the lords of the Noldor an excuse to go back to Minas Tirith instead of the Feanorians and Dorthonion Elves just going straight home from Angband.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I just don't want to lose sight of how awesome Calaquendi Elves are. Someone upthread was saying that they aren't all "Legolas or Glorfindel". They aren't all Glorfindel, but I contend that the chumpiest Noldo on the field could out-perform Legolas every day of the week at any task you choose. These aren't tired old Third Age Noldor moping through the forests of Eriador. These are fresh from Aman Noldor with the light of the trees still in their eyes. Transport one of these Noldor through time and space to Helm's Deep and their count would be 142, not just 42.

Maybe I'm exaggerating here a bit, but it's not a case where one spearman equals one spearman, and it's not something we can take real life numbers from at any point in history.
Don't worry. Angrod definitely outperforms Legolas. ;)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Here is basically what happens in the battle without the character interaction. Like I said, I am not an expert in this kind of thing, so please let me know if anything seems improbable.

Orcs come to Minas Tirith. They are noticed by the Feanorians and pursued by Angrod, Aegnor, Fingolfin, and Fingon.

Finrod's forces at Minas Tirith stay on the island and fire arrows at the Orcs as they pass on the shore. Most of the Orcs stay and return fire at the Elves or try to build a bridge to Tol Sirion, but some do get through the Pass.

To lift the siege, Angrod and Aegnor cut around through the forest and come up from the south. Finrod's forces join them, and they drive the Orcs north along the river. To keep the Orcs from moving up into Dorthonion, Fingolfin and Fingon come at them from the east and force them to stay along the river.

The Orcs fleeing from Minas Tirith lead the Elves into the ambush in the Fens, where the second army of Orcs has put up a rudimentary defensive wall. Overall, their goal is to force the Elves southwest, back through the Pass of Sirion, but without allowing them to get a message through to Barad Eithel. I divided the fighting here into three fronts: east, west, and center.

The eastern front is defended by Fingon, Fingolfin, and later Orodreth. Finrod himself joins the fighting towards the end after he brings the message to Fingolfin that the Feanorians are not coming. The Orcs are striking from the east and trying to push the Noldor west towards the river. The Noldor push back against the Orcs, trying to force them east. There are a few charges and counter-charges on this front, and a lot of gaining and losing of ground, particularly the hill that Fingon gets stuck on early in the battle. Just before the Feanorians arrive, the Noldor on this front change tactics and try to force the Orcs west so Orodreth and Fingon can ride around to Barad Eithel.

The western front is defended by Angrod and Aegnor. They are trying to force the Orcs northeast and break through to the northwest to clear a path to Barad Eithel. For a while, the Orcs on this front stay behind their wall. Then, they charge and try to force the Noldor back to and down along the river.

The center is defended by Finrod and Orodreth until he goes to reinforce the eastern front. I don't really see the Elves in the center as facing a separate charge of Orcs; they're just fighting the Orcs on the easternmost side of the western charge and the westernmost side of the eastern charge.

When the Feanorians arrive, they are first seen by Fingon and Orodreth, who have circled around to the east and come north of the entire Orc army. The Feanorian cavalry charges from the northwest, and the Feanorian infantry reinforces the other Noldor from the south. Together, they force the Orcs northeast, back to Angband. Plus, Aredhel and a small force come from Barad Eithel to join the chase back to Angband because I didn't want her to be upset about missing all the action.

It isn't shown, but part of the combined forces of the Noldor are left behind to hunt the Orcs that made it through the Pass before the siege of Minas Tirith was lifted. This gives the lords of the Noldor an excuse to go back to Minas Tirith instead of the Feanorians and Dorthonion Elves just going straight home from Angband.
Don’t forget that Angrod gets KIA.

It’s been definitively decided, right?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
The western front is defended by Angrod and Aegnor. They are trying to force the Orcs northeast and break through to the northwest to clear a path to Barad Eithel. For a while, the Orcs on this front stay behind their wall. Then, they charge and try to force the Noldor back to and down along the river.
I would say that it would be difficult for Edhellos and Angrod to come face to face with Gothmog unless they are in the center. Also, Dorthonion's troops are the freshest and would likely occupy the center anyway.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I like that you introduce Arminas, Edrahil and others (Ori and Nori in the frame). I assume we will not engage in casting for them -and it's good that we know that we will have seen them earlier when we do, although the question arises when such a casting should happen.

Did you get an answer on how large the armies are suppsed to be?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I would say that it would be difficult for Edhellos and Angrod to come face to face with Gothmog unless they are in the center. Also, Dorthonion's troops are the freshest and would likely occupy the center anyway.
Is it too improbable to have them on the west? I wanted them to be farthest away from Fingolfin, and Gothmog could get anywhere on the battlefield he wants pretty easily.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
'
Is it too improbable to have them on the west? I wanted them to be farthest away from Fingolfin, and Gothmog could get anywhere on the battlefield he wants pretty easily.
Can Gothmog do that easily? He's not really going to be able to see Edhellos through all of that, and even if he could, he'd have to mow down hundreds of Elves or trample thousands of Orcs to get there quickly.

If the A-bros are in the center, it makes it much, much simpler.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
'

Can Gothmog do that easily? He's not really going to be able to see Edhellos through all of that, and even if he could, he'd have to mow down hundreds of Elves or trample thousands of Orcs to get there quickly.

If the A-bros are in the center, it makes it much, much simpler.
I could have Gothmog up in the air like the other Balrog and swoop down to kill Edhellos.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
So when did we get the winged Balrog? Sorry, the winged meta-referencing Balrog?
 
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