Script Discussion S05E12

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So we're going to be doing something a bit different this time. We're going to be doing episodes 12-13 plus the frame story for episode 11 over the course of three sessions. The next session is going to largely be taken up by working through the structure of the two episodes, and maybe some of the scenes for Episode 12 in detail. I'll include some of the stuff I've posted on the Dagor Bragollach in the past, but some of it was changed per Prof. Olsen during Session ... 16? I'll see if I can dig out what those changes were, but if anyone beats me to it, feel free to post here.

So, I've been working on some stuff to propose to the hosts about the Dagor Bragollach episodes as it seems like they're going to get into it next session.

I've worked out a timeline of the major events and conflicts of the campaign, which I'll link below. This isn't an exhaustive list of what happens, so there are plenty of elements that aren't on there. This is just a visual representation of the major engagements.


I've divided the two episodes into their four acts, giving us eight stages. Most of these stages will include scenes from things other than the engagements going on at the time, but we can work those out later.

First, we have the attack on Dorthonion. This happens very quickly and is over before most of the other plots in the episode really gather steam. Killing major, named characters in the second act of this episode signals to the audience that we're serious. Anyone could die. Avengers: Infinity War has a good example of this, killing two supporting characters (one of whom being the breakout star of the Thor franchise), and defeating two of the most powerful main characters before the titles have even rolled. We'll also get Barahir covering the flight of his people once he realizes that Ladros is indefensible (perhaps he loses a brother or uncle before this happens). Additional notes: The A-Bros are in a particularly bad spot. The Men of Ladros (including the aged Andreth) are evacuating along the back of the Elvish lines. It is possible that Aegnor and Angrod's death result from their inability to withdraw without leaving the humans to die. Also-also, Barahir is probably hiding in the hills south of the Fens of Serech between the overthrow of Dorthonion and the near-capture of Finrod.

While Finrod and Fingolfin rush their armies to the front to respond, the Feanoreans also muster. Celegorm and Curufin are the first to engage, but are thrown back immediately, driven back to the Pass of Aglon, which is then overrun. Maglor's Gap is similarly assaulted, and Maglor is forced to flee.

Fingolfin arrives at Barad Eithel through the pass to find it beseiged from the east. Men of the house of Hador have taken refuge there after fleeing from Ard-Galen. Fingolfin leads a sortie out onto the field and meets with early success before the attack stalls, but as Episode 12 comes to an end, it becomes clear that the forces of Morgoth only sought to delay him, not defeat him. Once Dorthonion is dealt with and Himring surrounded, Morgoth's forces are able to concentrate on driving Fingolfin back to his fortress. By the end of the episode, the forces of Fingolfin are in full rout. By the midpoint of Episode 13, Fingolfin is back at Barad Eithel, which is surrounded. Galdor's men were crucial in their rear guard action, at the cost of many lives, including Galdor's brother.

Caranthir was present at Maglor's Gap, but when it falls, he retreats to Keep Helevorn. This proves fruitless, as it comes under attack early in Episode 13. As it falls around the episode midpoint, Amras shows up to rescue his fleeing brother and they ride to Amon Hen, where Amras' people have taken refuge along with many of the Greenelves.

Near the end of E12, Finrod has reached the front. His forces engage with an army set to keep watch on Minas Tirith. It's quickly evident that they are outmatched. As E13 opens, his army is routed and he, with a small group, are separated. They attempt to make their way to Minas Tirith without being detected.

As Himring is surrounded, the assault upon it begins in earnest at the beginning of Episode 12. The details can be determined later, but by the midpoint of E13, the assault is repelled and Maglor has joined Maedhros at Himring.

Around the midpoint of E13, Finrod's followers are caught by enemies in the fens. His fate seems assured when Barahir's men crash into the Orcs and drive them back enough for Finrod to escape. He has an appointment with Andreth later.

Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth comes after a period of discomfort-inducing quiet. Finrod's conversation with Andreth, Maedhros looking out at the foe-clotted plains below him, Caranthir and Amras reaching Amon Hen with what's left of their followers. All of these elements will help in creating the sense of hope and despair that surrounds that duel.



There are many details I haven't mentioned or even thought about, and many may change after further discussion. But it's important to at least have an idea how the fight plays out if we are going to decide where E12 ends and E13 begins. Essentially, my vote is to make E12 a "To Be Continued" sort of episode, ending in the midst of dire and unresolved conflict.

I also intend to accompany this chart with maps showing everyone's position at each stage of the conflict, so stay tuned.
Hey, so I finally got some time to put together some maps for the above outline. The locations aren't perfect, obviously, and not all of them reflect concurrent positions, but the important points people need to reach/be at at the critical point of the act the map is depicting. And yes, Aegnor and Angrod disappear because they're dead.

 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
@Rhiannon's notes on the discussion with Prof. Olsen, but I'll probably need to listen to it to make sure there aren't any details of which I need further reminding.

We didn't discuss the frame in session 5-16, so I'll go ahead and post my notes on it here.

Session 5-16: Season Outline, Dagor Bragollach

30ish-year time-skip between Episodes 9 and 10. Between episodes is a logical place for a time skip. This makes the story of Andreth and Aegnor’s relationship seem finished. Then, Andreth will seem much older for her final discussion with Finrod.

Flames for the Dagor Bragollach will appear at the very end of Episode 11 to prevent the need for a time-skip in the beginning of Episode 12 before the flames reach Dorthonion. There will be shots of Glaurung and the flames destroying Ard-galen at the beginning of Episode 12.

The Dagor Bragollach will not be split into two distinct episodes, but rather Episode 12 will end with a “to be continued … “ situation.

Episode 12 will begin with the destruction of Ladros and Dorthonion and the deaths of major characters to send the message to the audience that this is serious. Glaurung and the Balrogs will be there. Glaurung will blast through lines and fortifications. He will probably not engage in one-on-one confrontations. Morgoth’s armies will split off to try to keep Fingolfin and the Fëanorians apart. They will break through the Pass of Aglon. Angrod and Aegnor cannot retreat without leaving the House of Bëor (including Andreth) open to attack. In a way, Aegnor is dying to save Andreth.

By Act II, Fingolfin and Finrod will have heard news and be mobilizing. Celegorm and Curufin move north, above the Pass of Aglon to keep Morgoth’s forces from moving east. They do not see rescue efforts into Dorthonion as worthwhile. This will be the advent of Warg-riders, Morgoth’s heavy cavalry to oppose Celegorm’s heavy cavalry. Most of the other Fëanorians will remain in their fortresses where they are most effective. Caranthir is in Maglor’s Gap to support Maglor. However, most of his army will be back at Keep Helevorn.

In Act III, Celegorm and Curufin will be driven back through the Pass of Aglon. The House of Hador will retreat from Ard-galen to Barad Eithel, where Fingon is. Most of the House of Bëor will retreat through the Pass of Anach; Barahir and his soldiers will be doing their best to cover their people’s retreat. They might have estel that Finrod or another Eld lord will come to aid them. Fingolfin will have reached Barad Eithel with his army and make a sortie out onto Ard-galen. However, all of Morgoth’s forces around him are only meant to delay him so Morgoth can get into southern Beleriand. Glaurung will begin attacking Maglor’s Gap.

In Act IV, the Fëanorian fortresses will look like they will hold until Glaurung arrives. Glaurung will not attack Himring, but he will break through Maglor’s Gap. Word will reach Amras of the attack. Amras will go towards Keep Helevorn, hoping for refuge for his people. Maglor will retreat towards Himring; Caranthir will retreat towards Helevorn. Fingolfin’s sortie will be stalled. Finrod will reach Minas Tirith where Orodreth is. Barahir will still be up in Dorthonion. The assault against Himring has begun, but Morgoth’s forces have not yet broken through.

Episode 12 ends with Himring under assault, Maglor’s Gap destroyed, Fingolfin forces stalled and realizing they can’t break through, Finrod setting out to fight.

Episode 13

In Act I, Morgoth’s forces will begin to breach some of the defenses of Himring. Glaurung will destroy Helevorn. Celegorm and Curufin are retreating, unable to help Maedhros and unsure if Himring still stands. Finrod will be trying to keep Orcs from breaking through the Pass of Sirion. He sees an opening and tries to break through, personally leading a charge, which leads to him getting cut off. He makes some progress, up to the Fens of Serech, but the Orcs are reusing the earthworks from the Dagor Aglareb. There may be some Balrogs around. Barahir will come down from the hills of Dorthonion to rescue Finrod and enable him to withdraw his army. Boldog might be there, and Gelmir might be captured before Barahir arrives.

In Act II, the assault on Himring is repelled to the point where they are not a threat.

Act III will be the breath before the plunge. Finrod will give Barahir his ring. Amras will show up at Keep Helevorn, find Glaurung, and escape with Caranthir. Fingolfin will have retreated, Himring will stand. Fingolfin will have a final conversation with Fingon. Major captains of the villains will move back up to Thangorodrim.

Act IV will focus on Fingolfin’s duel. He will ride out to Thangorodrim like Oromë. He will deal Morgoth seven wounds. He will be able to accomplish Captain-America-level acrobatics and wound Morgoth in various places.

Maedhros, Barahir, and Fingolfin will be the most successful at the end of things. There could be a moment of realization between Maglor and Maedhros like the moment between Maedhros and Fingolfin at the Kinslaying; Maglor will be happy that Himring stood, but Maedhros will realize how badly things must have gone for everyone else.

The Haladin will not be fighting. They may not know what is going on in time, may not have soldiers, and have been tasked with taking care of younger members of other houses like Húrin and Huor.

Emeldir will be leading the refugees of the House of Bëor. She will get Narsil from some of Barahir’s scouts.

The final moment between Finrod and Andreth will happen in Act III or IV. Finrod may be offered his brother’s sword and give it to Andreth instead.

Huan’s prophecy will be overheard by Glaurung in Season 4. Almost-confrontation between Huan and Draugluin in the Dagor Bragollach.

Círdan will interact with Finrod and Fingolfin. Bëor will not visit the sea. Fingolfin may talk to Círdan as part of his big push.



We will discuss the frame next time. We should focus on limiting it to Gandalf’s interactions with a few people.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I say Gundor (Hador’s younger son) is KIA in Act II or III corresponding with the events around Fingolfin; the House of Hador is mentioned as forming a rearguard.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
For the Frame, I say Episode 12 could focus on Gandalf’s escape from the Harad city-state, and Episode 13 reporting his failure to Turgon and Ecthelion (and Denethor if we want him there).
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
For the Frame, I say Episode 12 could focus on Gandalf’s escape from the Harad city-state, and Episode 13 reporting his failure to Turgon and Ecthelion (and Denethor if we want him there).
That would mean we would have to resolve the entire coup and holiday in one episode. Is there anything we need from a scene with Gandalf reporting in that could not be conveyed by showing Gandalf and his charge arriving at Pellenor without dialogue?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That would mean we would have to resolve the entire coup and holiday in one episode. Is there anything we need from a scene with Gandalf reporting in that could not be conveyed by showing Gandalf and his charge arriving at Pellenor without dialogue?
Perhaps focus would be the wrong word; I thought the coup was the focus of Episode 11 and I am not sure on what point the younger son decides to join the coup and how this should be revealed.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Perhaps focus would be the wrong word; I thought the coup was the focus of Episode 11 and I am not sure on what point the younger son decides to join the coup and how this should be revealed.
We're not exactly sure how it's going to pan out either. We decided, for now, to focus on the main story first, which will help us work out an arc for the frame in the final three episodes.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
As for placement of deaths, I say Angrod, Bregolas, and Aegnor are killed first, in that order. The latter should die in a place that is somewhat easy to access since Finrod recovers Narsil.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
As for placement of deaths, I say Angrod, Bregolas, and Aegnor are killed first, in that order. The latter should die in a place that is somewhat easy to access since Finrod recovers Narsil.
So, given that Bregolas is in a different location, that would mean we are talking about three different scenes there. Any particular reason for that order?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, given that Bregolas is in a different location, that would mean we are talking about three different scenes there. Any particular reason for that order?
Yes; my thought is that Angrod would be killed first in the initial assault on Dorthonion, Bregolas would be killed in a last stand as the Beorians evacuate Ladros. Aegnor would die a bit later, location-wise closer to the gap by Minas Tirith where Finrod is saved by Barahir. Unless Finrod is able to get to Dorthonion to recover Narsil he won't be able to recover the sword to give to Andreth.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yes; my thought is that Angrod would be killed first in the initial assault on Dorthonion, Bregolas would be killed in a last stand as the Beorians evacuate Ladros. Aegnor would die a bit later, location-wise closer to the gap by Minas Tirith where Finrod is saved by Barahir. Unless Finrod is able to get to Dorthonion to recover Narsil he won't be able to recover the sword to give to Andreth.
So, a couple of things: there are no Orcs or Balrogs yet present during the initial assault, just fire and Glaurung. Killing Angrod that early would not only reduce the amount of time we have to build tension (resolving with his death), but it would also lose the opportunity to pay off Angrod's particular enmity with Gothmog.

In addition, I'm hesitant to kill the two brothers in two separate scenes, as it might feel repetitive. It doesn't have to, but I'd need a pretty strong reason to do it.

Also, Barahir is still in Dorthonion later in the battle, and his scouts could retrieve Narsil and give it to Finrod when they meet.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, a couple of things: there are no Orcs or Balrogs yet present during the initial assault, just fire and Glaurung. Killing Angrod that early would not only reduce the amount of time we have to build tension (resolving with his death), but it would also lose the opportunity to pay off Angrod's particular enmity with Gothmog.

In addition, I'm hesitant to kill the two brothers in two separate scenes, as it might feel repetitive. It doesn't have to, but I'd need a pretty strong reason to do it.

Also, Barahir is still in Dorthonion later in the battle, and his scouts could retrieve Narsil and give it to Finrod when they meet.
In that case, I suggest that Angrod and Aegnor would be killed after the initial assault, but by the attacks by the Orcs and Balrogs (not sure when that would be).

What do you think of when Bregolas would go out?

And at what point would Barahir still be in Dorthionion to retrieve the sword?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
In that case, I suggest that Angrod and Aegnor would be killed after the initial assault, but by the attacks by the Orcs and Balrogs (not sure when that would be).

What do you think of when Bregolas would go out?
Bregolas could easily be killed trying to cover the retreat of Barahir.

And at what point would Barahir still be in Dorthionion to retrieve the sword?
Barahir and his men are in Dorthonion both before and after they rescue Finrod. Professor Olsen even suggested that it be retrieved after the rescue by scouts who smuggle it to Emildir who gives it to Finrod.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Bregolas could easily be killed trying to cover the retreat of Barahir.



Barahir and his men are in Dorthonion both before and after they rescue Finrod. Professor Olsen even suggested that it be retrieved after the rescue by scouts who smuggle it to Emildir who gives it to Finrod.
So Emeldir gives Narsil to Finrod who gives it to Andreth?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We may be able to orchestrate a 'near miss' in the initial attack, in which Angrod or Aegnor is in danger of being cut off by the running flames, but narrowly escapes. But scenes like that are fairly superfluous - we will see people dying in the flames, and putting them in danger, only to rescue them, only to just kidding kill them later in the episode could feel like cheating. So I'm not sure we should do that, but we maybe *could*.

We will have a lot of death scenes to manage in these final two episodes. Some of them will not personally touch the audience very much - just there to show the scope of the battle, and its cost, but not characters they are particularly attached to. Angrod, Aegnor, and Bregolas are all characters they've seen throughout this season (and last season in the case of the elves), but we want to be careful not to 'pile up' the death scenes. Killing Fili, Kili, and Thorin at the end of the Battle of Five Armies means that, by the time you get to the main duel between Thorin and Azog, the audience has practically forgotten that the two younger dwarves are dead. Not quite, but the focus is clearly on THORIN as the most important death, and then to a lesser extent Kili (on account of the Tauriel side plot), and...well, Fili dies too, but quickly, and it's not like anyone still cares about him by the time the next two are dying moments later. His death is just there as a warm-up to the other two, seemingly. Letting Angrod and Aegnor share a death scene may avoid that particular 'forgetfulness' from killing Angrod too quickly.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the episode outline for Episode 12!


We do not have one clear protagonist dominating this episode - there are many moving pieces, and much is being set up for later. So, the structure of this episode is a bit different than others.

Our main battle scenes are focused on Dorthonion and the Eastern front with the Fëanorean forces.
We have a separate, independent engagement on the Western Front, where Fingon and Fingolfin are fighting back armies quite effectively. And we have an open question throughout the episode - when will Finrod arrive with reinforcements from Nargothrond?

We have not seen Glaurung since the end of last season. He's full grown now, so more impressive than he was. And also, he is somewhat independent still. So, while he is clearly essential to leading the battle, he more or less does what he wants and is not necessarily coordinating with the other forces; they are merely following in his wake of destruction. Glaurung is in the opening scene of each act, so we do keep tabs on him throughout the episode.

For episode 13, we will have to be joining a battle in progress, and will want to think of how to convey the situation to the audience as a 'refresher' of who is where doing what. The remaining named character deaths for the final episode are Gundor and Fingolfin, though Finrod will also find himself in dire straits.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Here is the episode outline for Episode 12!


We do not have one clear protagonist dominating this episode - there are many moving pieces, and much is being set up for later. So, the structure of this episode is a bit different than others.

Our main battle scenes are focused on Dorthonion and the Eastern front with the Fëanorean forces.
We have a separate, independent engagement on the Western Front, where Fingon and Fingolfin are fighting back armies quite effectively. And we have an open question throughout the episode - when will Finrod arrive with reinforcements from Nargothrond?

We have not seen Glaurung since the end of last season. He's full grown now, so more impressive than he was. And also, he is somewhat independent still. So, while he is clearly essential to leading the battle, he more or less does what he wants and is not necessarily coordinating with the other forces; they are merely following in his wake of destruction. Glaurung is in the opening scene of each act, so we do keep tabs on him throughout the episode.

For episode 13, we will have to be joining a battle in progress, and will want to think of how to convey the situation to the audience as a 'refresher' of who is where doing what. The remaining named character deaths for the final episode are Gundor and Fingolfin, though Finrod will also find himself in dire straits.
I say Finrod arrives with reinforcements in act III or IV, too late to save his brothers.

For Episode 13 as a refresher, how about we move east to west per se, showing the devastation wrought by Glaurung; none of the Sons of Fëanor are dead, but as we move westward the pines of Dorthonion will still be on fire and pans over the dead Angrod, Aegnor, and Bregolas.
 
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