Script Discussion S05E12

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
The action scenes actually are pretty good! But this is the first episode i perceive as a "war movie", thats what i meant.It is different from before.
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
This battle is different from any other in the legendarium, so seems only appropriate that it should be such an event!
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
I’ve just done a pass through the script. I think it is mostly good and I like the cliffhanger ending. I was wondering if there is more that can be done to tie the Noldor responses to what happened in the previous episode with the different attitudes towards Fingolfin’s vision and plan to attack. Maedhros made the point that a better strategy is to wait for Morgoth to attack first. This is what is happening now. Is there a way to link Maedhros’ response (and perhaps Fingolfin’s initial response) to this idea (i.e that the Noldor would be better off waiting for Morgoth to attack first). The sudden flames come as a surprise, but the elves have been on the alert for an attack and have battle plans ready presumably in the event of a sudden attack by Morgoth’s army. Their failing comes in underestimating that army.

One thing that jarred a bit was Celegorm’s snarkiness about humans and their worth (Finrod’s pets). I don’t think we need to overplay this prejudice. We know these guys are jerks and there will be plenty of opportunity for Celegorm to accuse Beren of treachery and cowardice for the fall of Dorthonion in Nargothrond in Season 6. In the crisis of battle, these snarky comments seemed misplaced, even contrived. I’d rather the dialogue focused on the differences between the brothers in their approach to what is happening. This helps to separate out the two characters who are mostly seen together as a pair.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
One thing that jarred a bit was Celegorm’s snarkiness about humans and their worth (Finrod’s pets). I don’t think we need to overplay this prejudice. We know these guys are jerks and there will be plenty of opportunity for Celegorm to accuse Beren of treachery and cowardice for the fall of Dorthonion in Nargothrond in Season 6. In the crisis of battle, these snarky comments seemed misplaced, even contrived. I’d rather the dialogue focused on the differences between the brothers in their approach to what is happening. This helps to separate out the two characters who are mostly seen together as a pair.
Well, it can go both ways:
  • We don't know Celegorm's views about humans in general from canon, but he might doubt their usefulness in combat. In the two main engagements where humans participated in combat against Orcs, the Haladin required a bailout from Caranthir and Hador beat a relatively small party of Orcs via taking them by surprise. They've never been able to dominate the other side in a straight battle.
  • On the other hand, the snarks against Beren do seem a bit overboard at this stage of the game, but this depends on how much we want a personal rivalry between Celegorm and Beren. It does appear that Celegorm has a personal grudge against Beren and his line since the Second Kinslaying occurs because of Celegorm's instigation and Celegorm has a lot of bones to pick with Beren, namely stealing Luthien and Huan (and the friendship of any canine creatures) from him. After Beren and Luthien, it's definitely personal on Celegorm's end, though the other Feanoreans won't likely know that. This can be set up through actions like Celegorm cutting a path through battling foes to reach Dior or stuff like that.
 
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Ilana Mushin

Active Member
Well, it can go both ways:
  • We don't know Celegorm's views about humans in general from canon, but he might doubt their usefulness in combat. In the two main engagements where humans participated in combat against Orcs, the Haladin required a bailout from Caranthir and Hador beat a relatively small party of Orcs via taking them by surprise. They've never been able to dominate the other side in a straight battle.
  • On the other hand, the snarks against Beren do seem a bit overboard at this stage of the game; this depends on how much we want a personal rivalry between Celegorm and Beren. It does appear that Celegorm has a personal grudge against Beren and his line since the Second Kinslaying occurs because of Celegorm's instigation and Celegorm has a lot of bones to pick with Beren, namely stealing Luthien and Huan (and the friendship of any canine creatures) from him. After Beren and Luthien, it's definitely personal on Celegorm's end, though the other Feanoreans won't likely know that.
I agree that Celegorm probably does think humans are useless at this stage. I’m just not sure that this is the best time to bring it out in actual dialogue. I think the drama of the scenes with Celegorm and Curufin come with the tensions between the brothers as to how they should respond to the attacks. There’s going to be lots of scope in the next season to play on the differences between these brothers (something that was done in season 3 and 4 but not much this season bc of the story focus this season). And I’m not convinced that Celegorm has a particular grudge against Beren or even the house of Beor. I don’t think he gives humans much thought. I’ve always imagined the political tensions between the sons of Feanor and Finrod once they are refugees in Nargothrond. I always understood Celegorm’s desire for Luthien and the idea of a political marriage coming from Eldar politics, rather than having anything to do with humans. So when Beren shows up, they are quite happy to let Finrod go and probably don’t really think of Beren. The grudge with Beren comes later when he thwarts their attempts to steal Luthien and kill him.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I’ve just done a pass through the script. I think it is mostly good and I like the cliffhanger ending. I was wondering if there is more that can be done to tie the Noldor responses to what happened in the previous episode with the different attitudes towards Fingolfin’s vision and plan to attack. Maedhros made the point that a better strategy is to wait for Morgoth to attack first. This is what is happening now. Is there a way to link Maedhros’ response (and perhaps Fingolfin’s initial response) to this idea (i.e that the Noldor would be better off waiting for Morgoth to attack first). The sudden flames come as a surprise, but the elves have been on the alert for an attack and have battle plans ready presumably in the event of a sudden attack by Morgoth’s army. Their failing comes in underestimating that army.

One thing that jarred a bit was Celegorm’s snarkiness about humans and their worth (Finrod’s pets). I don’t think we need to overplay this prejudice. We know these guys are jerks and there will be plenty of opportunity for Celegorm to accuse Beren of treachery and cowardice for the fall of Dorthonion in Nargothrond in Season 6. In the crisis of battle, these snarky comments seemed misplaced, even contrived. I’d rather the dialogue focused on the differences between the brothers in their approach to what is happening. This helps to separate out the two characters who are mostly seen together as a pair.
I have a moment to address the issue of Celegorm right now, so I'm going to attempt to do so.

At this point, two people have flagged three separate instances of Celegorm's behavior.

In the script, my intention was to characterize Celegorm as somewhat reckless, and as having little regard for humans as ... people. That he expresses these traits inappropriately or at inappropriate times doesn't bother me much.

Celegorm may not be one of the Bad Guys, but is certainly a ... bad ... guy, if you take my meaning. That he is callous to the plight of the Men of Ladros seems entirely in character. He has positive character traits, but this need not be one of them.


As to whether or not it is a good time to express anti-human bigotry. If he holds Men in low regard, his regard for Orcs is even lower. Up to this point, Celegorm's cavalry have been an unstoppable force on the battlefield. All he does is win. Until now. My characterization of him includes this lack of seriousness regarding the battle. Once it does become serious, he finds someone else to blame.

Most importantly, there are a lot of Elf-Lords in this battle, and differentiating them is important. Celegorm shouldn't feel like Fingon or even Curufin or Maedhros.

So here are my questions:

Is the objection to the characterizations listed above?

If so, what characterizations should set Celegorm apart from the others?

If not, how can we best exemplify those characteristics in his actions and dialogue?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
On the other hand, the snarks against Beren do seem a bit overboard at this stage of the game; this depends on how much we want a personal rivalry between Celegorm and Beren. It does appear that Celegorm has a personal grudge against Beren and his line since the Second Kinslaying occurs because of Celegorm's instigation and Celegorm has a lot of bones to pick with Beren, namely stealing Luthien and Huan (and the friendship of any canine creatures) from him. After Beren and Luthien, it's definitely personal on Celegorm's end, though the other Feanoreans won't likely know that.
Importantly, Celegorm has never met Beren here, so nothing he says or does is personally relevant to Beren.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So in this case is he being dismissive of humans on a general basis, specifically leveling his comments at the soldiers led by Beren?
No soldiers are being led by Beren at this time. Celegorm is talking about the Men of Ladros, and only them specifically because they are his neighbors.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
No soldiers are being led by Beren at this time. Celegorm is talking about the Men of Ladros, and only them specifically because they are his neighbors.
I do remember that Beren does command a small unit for part of one scene, but Celegorm doesn't know this. In fact, it's likely he doesn't know Beren exists.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I have no problem with certain elves being patronizing or smiling at or generally negative about humans, but do they show this behaviour openly when humans are present or do they only do it behind their backs? Elvish chauvinism is definitely a thing, Saeros is not the only one.

Being fiery and reckless is certainly a feanorian issue... i always envisioned them as very cesare-borgia like characters.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I have no problem with certain elves being patronizing or smiling at or generally negative about humans, but do they show this behaviour openly when humans are present or do they only do it behind their backs? Elvish chauvinism is definitely a thing, Saeros is not the only one.

Being fiery and reckless is certainly a feanorian issue... i always envisioned them as very cesare-borgia like characters.
In the episode as written, Celegorm's derogatory comments about humans are made when there are none present.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Celegorm... he is a big and strong guy, a nature guy who likes birds and beasts but he also likes to hunt them. I never envisioned him as a particularly loud or agressive guy, a hunter needs to be cold, quiet , patient and calculating i guess.He certainly enjoys to kill, but so did young Aredhel didn't she?

On the other hand, his name does mean hasty-riser doesn't it? So there must be something of that to his character.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Celegorm... he is a strong guy, a nature guy who likes birds and beats but he also likes to hunt them. I never envisioned him as a particularly loud or agressive guy, a hunter needs to be cold, quiet and calculating i guess.

On the other hand, hus name does mean hasty-riser doesn't it? So there must be something of that to his character.
Thus far, quiet and calculating would not be how I'd describe our characterization of Celegorm in SilmFilm up to this point. :)
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah sure, but you asked didn't you? A hunter also can be a very proud guy and a braggart.That was just never how i saw him. And i am quite honest in this... just like in the books i am constantly losing track of many of the characters, who and what they are, particularly the Feanorians.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Celegorm... he is a big and strong guy, a nature guy who likes birds and beasts but he also likes to hunt them. I never envisioned him as a particularly loud or agressive guy, a hunter needs to be cold, quiet , patient and calculating i guess.He certainly enjoys to kill, but so did young Aredhel didn't she?

On the other hand, his name does mean hasty-riser doesn't it? So there must be something of that to his character.
Unless you're Gaston.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Beren isn't leading any soldiers. He's 23. His father Barahir is the leader of the soldiers of Ladros. But again, Celegorm has never met Barahir, and has no personal knowledge of him. He knows of the Men of Ladros...he doesn't know them personally.

I think the best way to understand Celegorm's character is to realize that he gets fed up with people and prefers the company of animals. This is true whether the people in question are Elves, Dwarves, or Men. There is an exception for his brother Curufin, who knows him well enough to 'handle' him and not set him off. Celegorm is not as angry as Caranthir, not as easily upset...but he is a bit of a jerk, and would have typical 'jock' personality.
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
We;
Beren isn't leading any soldiers. He's 23. His father Barahir is the leader of the soldiers of Ladros. But again, Celegorm has never met Barahir, and has no personal knowledge of him. He knows of the Men of Ladros...he doesn't know them personally.

I think the best way to understand Celegorm's character is to realize that he gets fed up with people and prefers the company of animals. This is true whether the people in question are Elves, Dwarves, or Men. There is an exception for his brother Curufin, who knows him well enough to 'handle' him and not set him off. Celegorm is not as angry as Caranthir, not as easily upset...but he is a bit of a jerk, and would have typical 'jock' personality.
We’ve seen Celegorm going off on his own to get away from the people politics (I think at the beginning of season 4?). I see him as a jock as well - not the brightest tool in the shed (for a Feanorian) but with an intuitive understanding of animals. He is ‘Celegorm the fair’ - which I took to mean that he is a looker. He can certainly look at disdain upon the Ladros refugees but I don’t see him being scoffing of them because he has not really encountered humans before. None of the Feanoreans is really interested in humans up to this point (Except maybe Maedhros in theory). Their focus at this point will be on the impact of this attack on the Noldor.

I do think we can present Celegorm as rash, focused on action, and not too concerned with being compassionate to refugees at this point in the story (of course he’s about to be one himself), or racist. Celegorm is contrasted with Curufin easily because Curufin is so scheming whereas Celegorm is the opposite.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Status Update:

In response to some of the commentary both here and in the document, I have reworked the scene at Ladros to illustrate a bit more chaos, and make the goals of everyone involved a bit more clear. I've also reworked the scene with Orodreth and Finrod later in the episode to make the emotional impact of Angrod and Aegnor's deaths feel more keen.

There has also been some softening of the lines Celegorm speaks about men.
 
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