Script Discussion S05E13

Patrick Graham

New Member
Thats a great idea and According to HoME XI, p. 54, the c brothers do rescue orodreth from minas tirith during its fall to sauron, perhaps we could use this to explain them having a big influence in nargothrond, plus celegorms reputation as a cavalry commander and also finrods quote to beren as to them leading many of their own people.
The reason for them to try to access a way through doriath is desperation, maybe all of east Beleriand except himring is overrun and all ways to himring are blocked at the point in time, and maybe they have no information that a any of their brothers are still holding their realms or even alive at this time because the bragollach was so intense and overwhelming.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To expound on my idea of Sauron infiltrating the evacuation of Dorthonion/Ladros, it would be similar to a scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the Germans are unloading the Ark from the U-Boat, one of the soldiers turns toward the viewer and is revealed to be Indy. Sauron wouldn’t be doing anything outside of infiltrating, but it serves to show that he’s there and has another scheme.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Right, I understand what you are asking for. Unfortunately, he can't be there and also in Angband, and we have him in Angband for Act 3 and 4 of Episode 13. So, in which scene in the outlines would you suggest adding 'Sauron in disguise'?


I agree that rescuing Orodreth's family answers the question 'Why Nargothrond?' - going there at the same time as the refugees from Minas Tirith and aiding them explains why they would be invited in and given deference. Which means we should definitely *not* show them at Nargothrond this season, to leave that possible storyline open for Season 6. For that to work, Curufin and Celegorm will need to be hanging out near Tol Sirion when Sauron attacks early in Season 6.


On another thread, Brian (ouzaru) suggested adding Olorin to the finale, reacting to Fingolfin's death. I agree that if we want the vision to lead to the duel, this reaction would be important to show. So...where is Olorin at this time to have this reaction? Is he still with the Men of Dor-lómin? Is he back in Valinor? Is he watching Fingolfin's spirit arriving at the Halls of Mandos?
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Well, I guess we can't do Sauron in Beleriand. I just can't really think of any point before the House of Bëor reaches Brethil and Dor-Lomin where he has a chance to nab Eilinel before taking Minas Tirith.

As for Olorin, I say he's back in Valinor and not observing Fingolfin's spirit arriving at Mandos. If he's still in Dor-lomin, does he participate in the House of Hador's plight? Can he interfere? When Fingolfin's spirit arrives at Mandos, what is Olorin's reponse? Would Aredhel's spirit show up, which lets Fingolfin know she's dead?
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
I don't know that Olorin would necessarily go to visit Fingolfin. I think I wouldn't be surprised to see Olorin go back to Valinor feeling shamed or at the least disappointed with this outcome. If he stays, I imagine he might be cowed into inaction for a while, as he did not foresee this outcome and is definitely not happy with it. If he goes home, I think that's all the audience sees, we don't go back to Valinor to see him reporting his failures to the Valar, but of course he would do that, and I expect one of them (Nienna?) might console him and try to help him learn a lesson about the best laid plans, but not giving up, etc.

Generally though, I think we don't want to be spending lots of time seeing the goings on in the Halls of Mandos without necessity. The further we get from season 2, the more our story is tied directly to Middle Earth, the more of a black hole it should be; things go in, nothing comes out.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don't know that Olorin would necessarily go to visit Fingolfin. I think I wouldn't be surprised to see Olorin go back to Valinor feeling shamed or at the least disappointed with this outcome. If he stays, I imagine he might be cowed into inaction for a while, as he did not foresee this outcome and is definitely not happy with it. If he goes home, I think that's all the audience sees, we don't go back to Valinor to see him reporting his failures to the Valar, but of course he would do that, and I expect one of them (Nienna?) might console him and try to help him learn a lesson about the best laid plans, but not giving up, etc.

Generally though, I think we don't want to be spending lots of time seeing the goings on in the Halls of Mandos without necessity. The further we get from season 2, the more our story is tied directly to Middle Earth, the more of a black hole it should be; things go in, nothing comes out.
I'm not really sure if Olorin should be disappointed with the outcome of the duel. Isn't the entire point of the war to show that the Elves could not directly beat Morgoth, even if they defeated his armies? How is Olorin to know if Morgoth could be beaten?
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
I think he would be disappointed because death in single combat could not have been his intention for Fingolfin. So the result of the duel itself isn't really the issue; rather that Fingolfin chose to go alone at all would be a very unhappy result. Like, the role of Olorin here is to drive Fingolfin to some action, but I think our goal here is to have Fingolfin driven to extreme action by despair, that is, he is pushed to action by his interaction by Olorin, but his final choice after being frustrated in his discussions with others in Middle Earth is an outcome that Olorin could not forsee and certainly did not intend. That being the case, I think there's no way for Olorin to come away from this not feeling some disappointment, or even some responsibility for Fingolfin's death.
 
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