Script Discussion S05E13

Patrick Graham

New Member
Thats a great idea and According to HoME XI, p. 54, the c brothers do rescue orodreth from minas tirith during its fall to sauron, perhaps we could use this to explain them having a big influence in nargothrond, plus celegorms reputation as a cavalry commander and also finrods quote to beren as to them leading many of their own people.
The reason for them to try to access a way through doriath is desperation, maybe all of east Beleriand except himring is overrun and all ways to himring are blocked at the point in time, and maybe they have no information that a any of their brothers are still holding their realms or even alive at this time because the bragollach was so intense and overwhelming.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To expound on my idea of Sauron infiltrating the evacuation of Dorthonion/Ladros, it would be similar to a scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the Germans are unloading the Ark from the U-Boat, one of the soldiers turns toward the viewer and is revealed to be Indy. Sauron wouldn’t be doing anything outside of infiltrating, but it serves to show that he’s there and has another scheme.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Right, I understand what you are asking for. Unfortunately, he can't be there and also in Angband, and we have him in Angband for Act 3 and 4 of Episode 13. So, in which scene in the outlines would you suggest adding 'Sauron in disguise'?


I agree that rescuing Orodreth's family answers the question 'Why Nargothrond?' - going there at the same time as the refugees from Minas Tirith and aiding them explains why they would be invited in and given deference. Which means we should definitely *not* show them at Nargothrond this season, to leave that possible storyline open for Season 6. For that to work, Curufin and Celegorm will need to be hanging out near Tol Sirion when Sauron attacks early in Season 6.


On another thread, Brian (ouzaru) suggested adding Olorin to the finale, reacting to Fingolfin's death. I agree that if we want the vision to lead to the duel, this reaction would be important to show. So...where is Olorin at this time to have this reaction? Is he still with the Men of Dor-lómin? Is he back in Valinor? Is he watching Fingolfin's spirit arriving at the Halls of Mandos?
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Well, I guess we can't do Sauron in Beleriand. I just can't really think of any point before the House of Bëor reaches Brethil and Dor-Lomin where he has a chance to nab Eilinel before taking Minas Tirith.

As for Olorin, I say he's back in Valinor and not observing Fingolfin's spirit arriving at Mandos. If he's still in Dor-lomin, does he participate in the House of Hador's plight? Can he interfere? When Fingolfin's spirit arrives at Mandos, what is Olorin's reponse? Would Aredhel's spirit show up, which lets Fingolfin know she's dead?
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
I don't know that Olorin would necessarily go to visit Fingolfin. I think I wouldn't be surprised to see Olorin go back to Valinor feeling shamed or at the least disappointed with this outcome. If he stays, I imagine he might be cowed into inaction for a while, as he did not foresee this outcome and is definitely not happy with it. If he goes home, I think that's all the audience sees, we don't go back to Valinor to see him reporting his failures to the Valar, but of course he would do that, and I expect one of them (Nienna?) might console him and try to help him learn a lesson about the best laid plans, but not giving up, etc.

Generally though, I think we don't want to be spending lots of time seeing the goings on in the Halls of Mandos without necessity. The further we get from season 2, the more our story is tied directly to Middle Earth, the more of a black hole it should be; things go in, nothing comes out.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don't know that Olorin would necessarily go to visit Fingolfin. I think I wouldn't be surprised to see Olorin go back to Valinor feeling shamed or at the least disappointed with this outcome. If he stays, I imagine he might be cowed into inaction for a while, as he did not foresee this outcome and is definitely not happy with it. If he goes home, I think that's all the audience sees, we don't go back to Valinor to see him reporting his failures to the Valar, but of course he would do that, and I expect one of them (Nienna?) might console him and try to help him learn a lesson about the best laid plans, but not giving up, etc.

Generally though, I think we don't want to be spending lots of time seeing the goings on in the Halls of Mandos without necessity. The further we get from season 2, the more our story is tied directly to Middle Earth, the more of a black hole it should be; things go in, nothing comes out.
I'm not really sure if Olorin should be disappointed with the outcome of the duel. Isn't the entire point of the war to show that the Elves could not directly beat Morgoth, even if they defeated his armies? How is Olorin to know if Morgoth could be beaten?
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
I think he would be disappointed because death in single combat could not have been his intention for Fingolfin. So the result of the duel itself isn't really the issue; rather that Fingolfin chose to go alone at all would be a very unhappy result. Like, the role of Olorin here is to drive Fingolfin to some action, but I think our goal here is to have Fingolfin driven to extreme action by despair, that is, he is pushed to action by his interaction by Olorin, but his final choice after being frustrated in his discussions with others in Middle Earth is an outcome that Olorin could not forsee and certainly did not intend. That being the case, I think there's no way for Olorin to come away from this not feeling some disappointment, or even some responsibility for Fingolfin's death.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think he would be disappointed because death in single combat could not have been his intention for Fingolfin. So the result of the duel itself isn't really the issue; rather that Fingolfin chose to go alone at all would be a very unhappy result. Like, the role of Olorin here is to drive Fingolfin to some action, but I think our goal here is to have Fingolfin driven to extreme action by despair, that is, he is pushed to action by his interaction by Olorin, but his final choice after being frustrated in his discussions with others in Middle Earth is an outcome that Olorin could not forsee and certainly did not intend. That being the case, I think there's no way for Olorin to come away from this not feeling some disappointment, or even some responsibility for Fingolfin's death.
I'm concerned about showing this reaction, though, as it might diminish the perception of a moral defeat for Morgoth.
 

David_M_R

Member
Generally though, I think we don't want to be spending lots of time seeing the goings on in the Halls of Mandos without necessity. The further we get from season 2, the more our story is tied directly to Middle Earth, the more of a black hole it should be; things go in, nothing comes out.
Revisiting this a bit later, hope this isn't too late. Avoiding treating the Halls of Mandos like a bus station means when Beren and Luthien come back, it's going to be more impactful. Not just because Beren is a Man, but also because the audience hasn't seen the Halls for a bit. It might raise a "is that still a thing?!" response. And definitely carries the theme of the Athrabeth nicely, further than just this season's treatment. (And, with all the loss the audience is supposed to feel with other Elvish character deaths, reminding them "oh, it's ok, they're not really dead" by showing Mandos will soften that too much)
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I agree that the Halls of Mandos should remain wholly mysterious. Just as the fear of the balrogs could be diminished if we keep showing them hanging out in Angband, the mystery of death should never be treated too blasé. Yes, elves will return from time to time, and we'll talk about that...but showing what happens inside the Halls is a step too far.

If Olorin is personally arriving in Middle-earth, delivering a vision to Fingolfin, then...what was his hope? Surely his intention was to spur Fingolfin to action, but *not* to bring about his death in this way. If the vision is the original impetus that leads to Fingolfin's decision to challenge Morgoth to a duel, then we really shouldn't drop that thread - we should show Olorin being shocked and sad at some point. Because adaptation choices have to be carried the whole way through the story.
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
I'm concerned about showing this reaction, though, as it might diminish the perception of a moral defeat for Morgoth.
I think a little dramatic irony here isn't out of place. The audience will see the immediate fallout of the duel, and know a lot more about its immediate impact than the characters will. That the characters feel worse about it than the audience seems appropriate to me.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think a little dramatic irony here isn't out of place. The audience will see the immediate fallout of the duel, and know a lot more about its immediate impact than the characters will. That the characters feel worse about it than the audience seems appropriate to me.
Except that we are inviting the audience to view the events from Olorin's perspective there. What he feels is what we feel.
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
Except that we are inviting the audience to view the events from Olorin's perspective there. What he feels is what we feel.
Showing Olorin's perspective does not inherently invite the audience to agree with him. We are going to be pretty heavy handed with the duel symbolism, and in my head, we're getting Olorin's perspective at the beginning of Season 6, as I don't imagine there is quite enough time to cram it in to Episode 13. I don't think we will at all be invited to agree with Olorin's assessment.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Showing Olorin's perspective does not inherently invite the audience to agree with him. We are going to be pretty heavy handed with the duel symbolism, and in my head, we're getting Olorin's perspective at the beginning of Season 6, as I don't imagine there is quite enough time to cram it in to Episode 13. I don't think we will at all be invited to agree with Olorin's assessment.
That, I have much less issue with, as it doesn't impact the tone in this episode. And, of course, we can argue about it next season. :)
 

Octoburn

Active Member
Revisiting this a bit later, hope this isn't too late. Avoiding treating the Halls of Mandos like a bus station means when Beren and Luthien come back, it's going to be more impactful. Not just because Beren is a Man, but also because the audience hasn't seen the Halls for a bit. It might raise a "is that still a thing?!" response. And definitely carries the theme of the Athrabeth nicely, further than just this season's treatment. (And, with all the loss the audience is supposed to feel with other Elvish character deaths, reminding them "oh, it's ok, they're not really dead" by showing Mandos will soften that too much)
I wrote a Beren & Luthien screenplay once (actually 2 screenplays, I divided it into 2 films) and the first film ended with Luthien rescuing Beren at Tol-in-Gaurhoth. To set up the Luthien-in-Mandos scene at the end of film two, I added a post-credits scene to film one, showing Finrod being reborn in Mandos. This was only really necessary because it was a standalone film with no Valinorean backstory presented, and without the Finrod scene present, Luthien's scene has no context. It could have been possible, in hindsight, to let Luthien have a conversation with Thingol and/or Melian discussing Valinorean stuff, though I don't know if either of them would know that Elves went to the Halls of Mandos when they died, as they both had brief stays in Valinor.

This is all moot, as it applies to season 6, and it's not as much of an issue for this series, since a year or two were spent in Valinor. Though it may still be a good idea to have a bit of a refresher on the function of the Halls of Mandos sometime during season 6, or the ending could be a bit weird for people just jumping in, or who don't remember what happened 4 seasons ago so well.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, we will not doubt have to continue to remind the audience of things as we go. And Tolkien was able to tell about Finrod being reborn in Valinor, but we will have to decide when and how to show that. A question for next season.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yeah, we will not doubt have to continue to remind the audience of things as we go. And Tolkien was able to tell about Finrod being reborn in Valinor, but we will have to decide when and how to show that. A question for next season.
My best guess would be Earendil's voyage to Valinor and there is Finrod among those who meet him.
 

David_M_R

Member
Revisiting this a bit later, hope this isn't too late. Avoiding treating the Halls of Mandos like a bus station means when Beren and Luthien come back, it's going to be more impactful. Not just because Beren is a Man, but also because the audience hasn't seen the Halls for a bit. It might raise a "is that still a thing?!" response. And definitely carries the theme of the Athrabeth nicely, further than just this season's treatment. (And, with all the loss the audience is supposed to feel with other Elvish character deaths, reminding them "oh, it's ok, they're not really dead" by showing Mandos will soften that too much)
Actually, I'm listening back to all the old seasons, currently in season 2, around the session dealing with ep 3. At that point it was stated by Prof Olsen that one option (or maybe it was just stated as a given) was to only ever show the inside of the Halls of Mandos for the scene with Luthien there.
 
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