Script Discussion S06E03

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CRUCIALLY I don't think we should give credence to the idea of a heroic death being Beren's resolution. It's his realising there are things worth living and fighting for.
I agree with this. I'm not so much speaking to Beren's entire arc, but more for where he is in this episode. I do think when he get's to his realization in Mandos he would be wrestling with this period of time, cos they illustrate elements of Beren's identity.

THAT HE IS WORTH living for. Not just Luthien. Not just the world, but that he has value beyond being a warrior.
I really appreciate this point. That is the emotional goal for all of us, right? That we are enough. But, sometimes you need someone to tell you that you are enough, that you have worth, before you'll start to believe it about yourself.

Now, I'm gonna get big picture for a second.

I think that's what is so crazy about Luthien to Beren. His expectation is that he has to earn her. Earn her love. Earn her approval. That he's not enough for her.
Luthien completely subverts this expectation, and pursues him instead! She doesn't expect anything from him. She just wants him.
This is completely contrary to what Beren understands about life, or even about himself. Because I think he, like many of us, doesn't see anything desirable, or worthy about himself. But Luthien tells him that he has worth. If someone who means the world to you, someone worth living for, tells you that you are enough, aside from your deeds, aside from your ability, then you start to think. Either that person is delusional, or there's something there.

Not to say that she is his worth, but she shows him that he has worth.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I agree with this. I'm not so much speaking to Beren's entire arc, but more for where he is in this episode. I do think when he get's to his realization in Mandos he would be wrestling with this period of time, cos they illustrate elements of Beren's identity.



I really appreciate this point. That is the emotional goal for all of us, right? That we are enough. But, sometimes you need someone to tell you that you are enough, that you have worth, before you'll start to believe it about yourself.

Now, I'm gonna get big picture for a second.

I think that's what is so crazy about Luthien to Beren. His expectation is that he has to earn her. Earn her love. Earn her approval. That he's not enough for her.
Luthien completely subverts this expectation, and pursues him instead! She doesn't expect anything from him. She just wants him.
This is completely contrary to what Beren understands about life, or even about himself. Because I think he, like many of us, doesn't see anything desirable, or worthy about himself. But Luthien tells him that he has worth. If someone who means the world to you, someone worth living for, tells you that you are enough, aside from your deeds, aside from your ability, then you start to think. Either that person is delusional, or there's something there.

Not to say that she is his worth, but she shows him that he has worth.
Still Luthien starts out by letting Beren catch her, which he appreciates. She does play with him too, like the spider, but Luthien wisely lets him catch her - not the other way round - as - as the text tells us - Beren fears "capture" more than death - in which he does actually remind me Éowyn, who fears a "cage" more than death.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
Still Luthien starts out by letting Beren catch her, which he appreciates. She does play with him too, like the spider, but Luthien wisely lets him catch her - not the other way round - as - as the text tells us - Beren fears "capture" more than death - in which he does actually remind me Éowyn, who fears a "cage" more than death.
If we go with that scene as is. I know there' been back and forth chatter about how we make it play and Corey has touched on the subject himself directly. I'm personally not keen on the 'chase' element as it's just an image of relationships I don't love, but I can also see why people like it
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
If we go with that scene as is. I know there' been back and forth chatter about how we make it play and Corey has touched on the subject himself directly. I'm personally not keen on the 'chase' element as it's just an image of relationships I don't love, but I can also see why people like it
If we use it as a counter-example of the spider in Nan Durgotheb then imho it gains more meaning.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
So my promised proposition - take what you like from it:

I like Haerangil 's spider queen idea.

My take on it:
I would have Beren holding up quite well in Nan Dungortheb for several days against semi-sized spiders and primordial monsters who come chasing at him from different directions but in his efforts he completely overlooks a giant motionless spider standing completely still.

She has the form of a great giant black widow, gracile and elegant. The relatively small Shelob looks like an ugly duckling against her.

She waits patiently until Beren actually leans against one of her legs one day when backing out then in an instance she has him in a loose cocoon and takes him to and hangs him in her cobweb dome - not completely heads down so he does not die of heart failure after only one day - but still in a position he is completely helpless hanging seemingly in thin air connected by loose strands from each side of the dome completely isolated from all the world.

After a while he starts getting insane, covered in his own body fluids, has his flashbacks and dreams.
She comes in from time to time pretending wanting to eat him but never does, just gets high on his fear of immediate death and total control.
He actually start to think about killing himself, tries to hang himself, but his mobility is too restrained.

Then one day after the big spider leaves Shelobs sneaks in, he tries to entice her to get that clumsy greedy (relatively) "little" thing to actually kill him, coaxing her by calling her "Shelob" like he would lure a stray kitten.
Beren and Shelob.png
And when she cautiously climbs onto the web and gets to him and positions herself to strike - with her fangs like a real spider - no sting in her rear - please - she is not a wasp - the "elegant hostess" returns and attacks Shelob.

Shelob escapes by cutting the some of the strands around her free and falling to the ground which results - in the general commotion - in having Beren also fall down and stuck to one of her hind legs - he gets dragged like somebody stuck to a car along by her through spaces to small for the big spider to enter, but as he slows Shelob down, so she cuts him loose and lets him laying there, fortunately not far from some decomposing bodies of some big strange animals and as such he gets completely overlooked in the chase.

Shelob in her panic is pursued by the big spider for a while and starts to climb up the Ered Gorgoroth.

Beren - after some time just laying there - smells the breeze of cold fresh air, and starts crawling in that direction very slowly inch by inch until
he feels dried winter grass under his hands again and semi-blind still he passes out - reduced to a "perferct bundle of misery".

Here you have your trauma to be healed from for Beren, Rob Harding ;) .
 
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Kathrin

Well-Known Member
Well I definitely think with the spiders there is a lot of opportunity for body horror and gore, as layed out. I personally would prefer to keep the monsters in the shadows for the majority of the time and have them and the forest hunt Beren, play with him from the shadows, lure him into swampy, murky tangled places, deprive him of light but also sleep, food, water... idk xD
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Well I definitely think with the spiders there is a lot of opportunity for body horror and gore, as layed out. I personally would prefer to keep the monsters in the shadows for the majority of the time and have them and the forest hunt Beren, play with him from the shadows, lure him into swampy, murky tangled places, deprive him of light but also sleep, food, water... idk xD
I am not sure there is any forest in Nan Dungortheb - no sunlight - so just bare rocks and plain dirt and debris imho, under a multilayed grand-tent of cobwebs imho.
 
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Kathrin

Well-Known Member
then there wouldnt be any mirkwood either, right ;) I feel like corrupted nature is a big theme in early middle earth, nature doesn't just wither and die under morgoths /& co's influence, it seems to turn bad (maybe also still a bit of a leftover of yavanna putting all of the flora and fauna of the continent in a long hibernation when there was no light at all. So, I can imagine a sort of deepsea creatures version of a swamp, and, high above, a roof of trees, but all the undergrowth has mostly died and rotten.

it reminds me of a hike i once did in france where i was in a forest where all the undergrowth had been afflicted by some kind of agressive caterpillar or sth and was all dead, and full of white nets and larvae, but the trees above were still fine. that was very spooky (of course much more low-key, but still)
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
then there wouldnt be any mirkwood either, right ;) I feel like corrupted nature is a big theme in early middle earth, nature doesn't just wither and die under morgoths /& co's influence, it seems to turn bad (maybe also still a bit of a leftover of yavanna putting all of the flora and fauna of the continent in a long hibernation when there was no light at all. So, I can imagine a sort of deepsea creatures version of a swamp, and, high above, a roof of trees, but all the undergrowth has mostly died and rotten.

it reminds me of a hike i once did in france where i was in a forest where all the undergrowth had been afflicted by some kind of agressive caterpillar or sth and was all dead, and full of white nets and larvae, but the trees above were still fine. that was very spooky (of course much more low-key, but still)
Exactly - Mirkwood has sunlight comimg to the trees, below those is little light. So the trees are alive and feedeing the rest of the forest - a different concept altgether. Here there id "unlight" in the valley and cretures from "before the Sun" you can have some mushrooms bo besides that little will grow here. And knowing Ungoliant's love for sucking out even trees dry, how could a tree survive here?
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I picture it more as being a landscape of bizarre rock formations and natural standing stones. Lots of books and crannies but eerie and warped.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I picture it more as being a landscape of bizarre rock formations and natural standing stones. Lots of books and crannies but eerie and warped.
A moon landscape with some decaying debris laying around
Nan Durgotheb2.png
like in an uncleaned spider terrarium (warning: pictures contain spiders):


Edit: Actually it just occured to me that Mirkwood is a cross between Nan Dungortheb and Doriath put together.

1651996905186.png

Imagine a huge dense tent of this kind spun of "unlight-shadow" by Ungoliant above the whole area attached to Ered Gorgoroth at one side - no light can penetrate it, no sky visible, no night ot day recognisable, no sun, moon or starlight - so monsters from "before the Sun" can still live there.
 
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Kathrin

Well-Known Member
hmm i kinda just have a hard time picturing nan dungortheb in a place where there is nothing to occlude the sky. I mean the trees could be extremely sick too, or partly dead. (also ungoliant killed the trees because they had light, she doesnt just generally eat trees).
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
hmm i kinda just have a hard time picturing nan dungortheb in a place where there is nothing to occlude the sky. I mean the trees could be extremely sick too, or partly dead. (also ungoliant killed the trees because they had light, she doesnt just generally eat trees).
Ungoliant eats anything - in the end even herself. And the sky is occluded - completely so by the big deep acient shadow and multiple layers of cobwebs. All water is poisoned and no light is there, no elves ever come there - how could there be any trees?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the outline from today's session. Comments welcome!

 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Here is the outline from today's session. Comments welcome!

I've managed to catch the last minutes of the live transmission on Twich. You have been really working very long.

Love the lost elves in Nan Durgortheb. What a surprise!

And the spider fight is in! Yeah! Two oversized spiders fighting - really really dramatic.

Would be nice for Beren to give Shelob her name in passing - so that we do know who she is - but I am simply delighted to see her included either way.

Alltogether I do find that outline quite interesting and exciting - even if Beren comes out somehow lacking in stategic thought and generally irrational in his complete lack of planning - generally he appears as unfit to be a war leader, stateman and politician.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I love the outline!

I think it would be cool if Luthiens sporty friends would be Nielthi, Evranin and Nimloth...just to drop some names!

I like the description of Nan Dungortheb... Hoodoos! Also nice move to connect Beren to lost elves of Maedhros troop! Also like the idea of the Melian and Annael scene.The two spiders, shelob and her sister fighting... great! I am curious how the Luthien and Beren meet situation will turn out in a more detailed script!

Fun thing: at first i misread Luthien and her friends were playing tagball!:D
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
I love the outline!

I think it would be cool if Luthiens sporty friends would be Nielthi, Evranin and Nimloth...just to drop some names!

I like the descriptiin of Nan Dungortheb... Hoodoos! Also nice move to connect Beren to lost elves of Maedhros troop! Also like the idea of the Melian and Annael scene.The two spiders, shelob and her sister fighting... great! I am curious how the Luthien and Beren meet situation will turn out in a more detailed script!

Fun thing: at first i misread Luthien and her friends were playing tagball!:D
Nimloth is already in Ossiriand at that time or not?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Is she already? If so then okay, she is away...still Nielthi and Evranin i would like, even if just as briefly named extras.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Did you alteady post outlines for e1 and e2? Couldn't find them... am i blind?
The outlines for Episodes 1 and 2 were posted in the respective threads when the script discussions happened. Let me know if you cannot find them.

Here is the link for the episode 2 outline:
 
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