Season 4 Episode 12 Script Discussion
- Thread starter MithLuin
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Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
The main thing I think the palantir could be used for is demonstrating that the hidden realms are hidden. We probably won't see Morgoth trying to see inside Doriath or figure out where Gondolin is, but we could show Curufin doing so. As for what he can see coming, that depends on what story lines he will be involved in in later seasons. There are plenty of opportunities for him to use it but not at all alter the plot of the Silmarillion, and just because he has a palantir doesn't mean he will spend all his time gazing into it, so he could still easily miss things.
Similarly, when and how it's lost or destroyed depends on how long we want to keep it around. The palantir could be destroyed in the Dagor Bragollach if we don't want it to still be around for the Nirnaeth. Curufin could even destroy it or hide it himself to keep it from falling into enemy hands. It could end up in Nargothrond, or it could end up with Maedhros after Curufin's death. If it's not destroyed before then, it should definitely be lost in the sinking of Beleriand.
I strongly considered having Curufin try to make a palantir but have it not work, and I actually wrote a version of the script where that is the case. However, I thought he probably would be able to make one. Plus, since Feanor makes the Silmarils and Celebrimbor makes the Rings, I thought it would be nice for Curufin to make something kind of important himself.
I agree that we could show Curufin inheriting his father's crafting skill (as he is explicitly stated to). I do have *some* concerns about future idiot-plots resulting from things Curufin should have known, but just doesn't for reasons. Destroying this new palantir at the end of Season 5 (in the Dagor Bragollach) would eliminate most (though not necessarily all) of those problems, so we could consider doing that.
I do think that if he has it at the Nirnaeth, we're going to have problems.
I do think that if he has it at the Nirnaeth, we're going to have problems.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
I've established that he cannot see Angband with it, so he won't know about Glaurung or the Dagor Bragollach before anyone else. What else might be a problem?
Hmmm. I am not opposed to using a made-up rhyming name to go along with Norn (such as Dorn). After all, it isn't likely that *all* of our dwarf-names can be lifted from the Eddas. I think we should avoid some obvious pitfalls like 'Thorn,' but certainly, for a name that gets dropped in a single scene for a character we never meet, it's not important we imbue the name with a lot of significance.
But I do want to pause and consider what we can be saying about dwarf-culture in this story. After all - Norn is upset because of a grievance committed against his family member. (Murder or other serious crime) Would it mean something different if it were Norn's brother or sister who was the victim of this crime? We know dwarves are rather protective of the women in their families, so would this be an opportunity to show that? I don't think there's anything wrong with it being his brother, but do we want it to be his sister?
I think we should consider that question independently of the names. But, to bring it up... Dís and Thorin don't have rhyming names. I'm fine with keeping that trope for dwarf-brothers, and allowing brothers and sisters to have non-rhyming names. Which would open up any Norn-related female name (Skuld, Urdr, etc) for the sibling, if it's a sister rather than a brother.
Well, take the Season 4 finale. In it, there is a question of 'what happened to the outpost?' Curufin isn't there, so it's a moot point, but if he were, he could just use his stone to take a peak back in time and check out what happened. That would immediately cut the tension of the characters not knowing the solution to a mystery. Since Curufin is only one guy and not on screen all the time, we can likely eliminate him from conversations where we need that sort of tension, or the palantir could be non-portable or something. Season 5 is going to have a lot of non-Fëanorean-centric plotlines (Curufin will show up in the Eöl and Aredhel storyline, but not much else?), so keeping him out of 'I wonder what's going on...?' conversations shouldn't be too tricky. Having Nan Elmoth be a dead-zone for his palantir would make sense as well (it's got the proto-girdle).
It's just - introduce a powerful artefact. Have there be only one of them. Curtail its usefulness by having the 'best' bits be out-of-range.... And then have it destroyed not long after with it never accomplishing anything all that useful? That's...going to be a disappointing little side trail. And, if it *does* do something useful...then we're going to expect it to be able to do that again every time a reason for its use comes up.
'Why can't they just...?' is a common question in stories with magic. Harry Potter had to have a lot of silly rules built into the story to keep magic from just being the easy answer to everything.
If Curufin can make one palantir, what's to stop him from making a whole pile of them and passing them out to all of his brothers so they communicate across all of their fortresses? And then what is to stop Maedhros from giving some to Fingolfin and Fingon and Aegnor? And then the Noldor have palantiri in Beleriand and we're stuck.
Basically - there's a can of worms here. We can open it...but we might not like where it goes.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Maybe he could use it to see Aredhel as soon as she leaves Nan Elmoth, which is why he goes to seek out Eol. Also, he could see the fall of Dorthonion in the Dagor Bragollach, giving him and Celegorm time to get to Nargothrond.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Given that we have established the Fëanorians have an extensive early warning network, I'm not sure we need to create the problems that having Palantiri gives us.
I have real concerns about how the Palantiri will effect the plot of 2nd and 3rd age stories, but we can't really get around that. I'd like to avoid those issues as long as we can.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I’ve actually had doubts as to the validity of statements regarding Curufin being the most like Feanor, since Feanor seems much more impulsive and hot-tempered (The threatening of Fingolfin and the Oath), while Curufin is more plotting and scheming, since he’s the brains behind the plot to leave Finrod to die and forcibly unite the Elven Kingdoms.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
"In Erain Velig" "Mighty Kings"
Aran = 'king' pl. erain
Beleg = 'great, mighty' pl. belig and undergoes lenition to become velig.
Sources:
https://www.elfdict.com/w/mighty
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_phonetics.htm#soft
Aran = 'king' pl. erain
Beleg = 'great, mighty' pl. belig and undergoes lenition to become velig.
Sources:
https://www.elfdict.com/w/mighty
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_phonetics.htm#soft
As would be Dorn, Forn, Gorn, Horn, Lorn, Torn, Thorn, Orn, Born, Morn, Corn, Avorn(?), Aithorn, Basgorn, Codorn, Cuilvorn, Dimborn/Dimvorn, Ecthelorn(?), Galvorn, Gronthorn, Huorn, Inthorn, Lalorn, Mallorn, Medlivorn, and Ringorn.
Some of those are older versions of Sindarin, and some are newly-coined words not made up by Tolkien, but I think that most of them would be fair game if you wanted to pick a Sindarin-compatible rhyming name for Norn's brother. Not all of them have meanings that would be appropriate, but that is neither here not there. The one that most obviously pairs with Norn is Dorn, but I wanted to give everyone options.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
I think I'll go with Dorn unless anyone has any major objections.As would be Dorn, Forn, Gorn, Horn, Lorn, Torn, Thorn, Orn, Born, Morn, Corn, Avorn(?), Aithorn, Basgorn, Codorn, Cuilvorn, Dimborn/Dimvorn, Ecthelorn(?), Galvorn, Gronthorn, Huorn, Inthorn, Lalorn, Mallorn, Medlivorn, and Ringorn.
Some of those are older versions of Sindarin, and some are newly-coined words not made up by Tolkien, but I think that most of them would be fair game if you wanted to pick a Sindarin-compatible rhyming name for Norn's brother. Not all of them have meanings that would be appropriate, but that is neither here not there. The one that most obviously pairs with Norn is Dorn, but I wanted to give everyone options.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Dorn is a fine name to me. Ringorn i also like... i am fine with pseudo-sindarin too... a lot of JRRT's goldogrin and early Sindarin/Ilkorin was later recycled by him and used in his spurious Nandorin... and Nandorin mightbhave played some role for the early dwarves. I AM JUST INCLINED TO AVOID TOO obvious Old Norse for this Age.
Comments on the Episode 12 Script:
Honestly, I think this might be the *best* use of the Frame to introduce the main story yet. Using Tolkien's penchant to name-drop from his older stories to our advantage here seems like a great choice to me, and taking the title of the episode from Balin/Gimli's song sounds like a solid choice.
Act I:
Surly Norn is the best Norn, I think. I like that he and Mablung have such an easy partnership...and then, *alas*, we have to go and strain that nigh to the breaking point. *Deep Sigh* But be that as it may it has to happen here. If it's a choice between Norn being a racist jerk or Finrod being a casual imperialist, I know which character assassination I'm more comfortable with. Sorry, Norn.
Fingon's disappointment with Turgon not visiting him is very clear. He sounds a bit hurt. But then, Turgon is about to abandon him without word for several hundred years, so I guess he's right to have a complex! And having Fingon/Turgon, who-is-the-good-son discussions definitely ties back to the Fëanor/Fingolfin conflicts in Season 2.
I am a little concerned about the emphasis on dreams, rather than on foresight, in the discussion between Fingolfin, Fingon, and Aredhel. I certainly see where this is coming from - Turgon indeed had dreams, and they're a concrete thing to discuss. But when Fingolfin comments on it, I'd rather he comment on how Turgon's foresight has always been good, not that he's always had helpful dreams. The reason being that foresight is a personal trait, associated with elves, and involves the will. Dreams are something that passively happen to you, and while they can be taken as prophetic and providential, dreams in and of themselves are not tied into the will of the elf in question. We don't want to portray Turgon as someone led around by the nose by his visions/dreams. We want to portray him as a visionary leader of his people. What Fingolfin trusts is Turgon's insight and decisions. It is too cute, though, that Fingon dreams about Maedhros; of course he does! I like that light-hearted moment, but at the same time, experience a bit of mood-whiplash to go from laughing over that directly to the final farewell of Aredhel with Fingon and Fingolfin. Perhaps Fingon's anecdote should be much earlier in that scene, so we get the light-hearted stuff out of the way up front with the 'oh, so happy to see you!' stuff, and then gradually move into the more serious matter of Turgon, and on to the farewell?
Act II:
As a practical point, Mîm-the-condemned-thief would not have been allowed to keep the necklace he stole! I realize there can be a way in which he hid it, and smuggled it out with his belongings when he was exiled, but...realistically, if they caught him stealing, they would have made sure they got the item back from him. And I understand how helpful the golden necklace is in these scenes. It's just... I don't see him still having it as a believable development. I do like that theft rather than murder is the first crime we are presented with, and how utterly unrepentant Mîm seems about the whole affair.
As a comment on nomenclature - we did discuss what the 'petty-dwarves' would be called. It's fine for them to refer to the others as Clan-dwarves. And thus to refer to themselves as Clan-less or Houseless. Norn should refer to them as the Exiles (as you have him do), but not use the term 'petty-dwarves'. It's fine that he uses the Sindarin version of Petty-dwarves of course (we're just avoiding that English translation).
"Mold doth always resist being scrubbed from stone." I like the introduction of cultural sayings among the dwarves! Certainly, referring to them as 'mold' makes his opinion quite clear, and having it be about stone is good and dwarvish. And mold is something that grows in the dark and damp, so...yeah, this works. Tolkien has so many 'sayings' in his work, and some are so close (and yet just a hair removed) from English sayings: Goldberry's "Make haste while the sun shines" for instance.
Act III:
Curufin folding his napkin into a Fëanorean star, ha! *grin* And Aredhel missing Celegorm...good, good.
About the conversation about crowns. Turgon was crowned king of Nevrast by Fingolfin. He didn't set himself up as king. I realize that Curufin's desire to be a lord should come out in this conversation, and some resentment that Maedhros has prevented that....but. I feel like Aredhel would do a better job defending her brother from what Curufin is insinuating here. Also, the Ban includes wearing gems, so Turgon may have stopped wearing his garnet-studded crown after that. And I want to like the reference to Celebrimbor's jewelry-making more than I do.
Fur pelts of Tevildo's cats....I am fine with a white one being gifted to Aredhel. She should wear white, and we also decided that incorporating fur into costumes of Fingolfin's host would be a feature of those who crossed the Helcaraxë. So...not that Fëanoreans in the cold north can't use furs...but...we might want to think this through. Also, uh...wearing body parts of your enemies is a rather barbaric practice. I realize that if your enemy is a giant beast, this doesn't necessarily have the same connotation, but... My orc costume has a necklace of dried and blackened elf ears, and a bunch of deer bones and fur pelts on it. Because...orc. I would not expect an elf to wear a necklace of dried orc ears! (No, not even a Fëanorean) When one has Talking Beasts in one's story, one must think through the implications.....
Do we want Curufin and Celegorm to see through Aredhel so distinctly that they know Turgon is building a secret realm? And that Aredhel is saying her final farewells? That seems...a bit too far. This reads like Curufin and Celegorm have read ahead! I am inclined to put question marks all over this entire palantiri conversation. Honestly, nothing is said here that the audience needs to hear.
Amras-the-painter? Sure, why not.
ACT IV --> This designation is missing from the script, by the way.
I am fine with Norn's brother Dorn being a peaceable guy whom everyone loved. I'm not sure that 'dwarven shepherd' is a direction we want to go in, though. Dwarves aren't really much into caring for domesticated animals. I do like how the reveal of murder and Norn's appeal to Mablung is juxtaposed with the very Trail-of-Tears forcible eviction. We really feel for Mablung's dilemma in this scene.
Norn's aging throughout this episode is necessary, of course, and in general I like that. He is going to be too old by the time Nargothrond is complete. However, we wanted to save the issue of mortality for Season 5. So, as of right now, the elves don't 'get' that dwarves age and die of natural causes. And the dwarves are secretive enough to want to keep that from them. So, if Norn were really so aged and decrepit...he would likely decline the invitation and not travel to Nargothrond. So, I think that if we want him there, he has to still be hale enough to get around and not be forgetful/senile. I'm also not very happy about the origin of the Nauglamir. We were hoping to have the bright young dwarf 'Zirak' craft it for Finrod, possibly after Norn's death. So, as a suggestion, I would say that Norn can skip the final scene (the audience might figure out that he's too old to travel or has even died), and send a young dwarf in his stead. Zirak could then present a gift that does not have the 'baggage' that this does. I understand wanting to have Mablung, Norn, and Finrod in this final scene. I just don't necessarily like this as the final scene for them.
Finrod seeing the vision of Turgon in the mist is so cool!
Suggested Edits:
p. 7 "It is not about Orcs that I am concerned." --> "It is not about Orcs alone that I am concerned." I'd insert an 'only' in there. Norn's distrust should extend to the leaguer of the Noldor, which after all is not fool-proof. He's not going to gainsay Mablung, but he also would not be overly surprised to run into orcs or wolves out here. Better safe than sorry and all of that.
p. 13 "And if Turgon doth claim that dreams have again guided him, I trust this. Never have his dreams proven false, and, often, they have indeed shown the will of the Valar. It is good that Ulmo, at least, hath not consigned us to our doom. " --> "And if Turgon doth claim that dreams have again guided him, I trust this. Never hath his foresight proven false, and, often, he hath seen more deeply and more truly to the heart of a matter than the rest of us. It is good that Ulmo, at least, hath not consigned us to our doom, if indeed he be the source of these dreams of your brother's.
I'd like to redirect Fingolfin's reaction. He's not likely to take Aredhel's word that Turgon's dreams are from Ulmo at face value. While not necessarily disbelieving it, he wouldn't just accept it, either. And, as stated above, I'm more interested in a statement from him about Tur"gon's history of demonstrated good sense and wisdom than in his history of prophetic dreams.
p. 22 "Dears begin to trickle down [Daughter]’s face. " --> "Tears begin to trickle down [Daughter]’s face. " Just a typo, of course. Honestly, do we need to name Mîm's daughter? I know he addresses her once prior to this, but....the fact that she calls Mîm 'father' establishes who she is.
p. 32 "I thank ye both for letting me stay here." --> "I thank thee both for thy hospitality/warm welcome/company" Honestly, I thank someone for 'letting me stay there' when I visit a friend's house. Very modern sounding. "Of course." --> "I hope to!" or "I hope it may be so!" Aredhel would not wish to be dishonest with her dear (half-)cousins. She knows she may not see them again, though she certainly does hope she may.
Honestly, I think this might be the *best* use of the Frame to introduce the main story yet. Using Tolkien's penchant to name-drop from his older stories to our advantage here seems like a great choice to me, and taking the title of the episode from Balin/Gimli's song sounds like a solid choice.
Act I:
Surly Norn is the best Norn, I think. I like that he and Mablung have such an easy partnership...and then, *alas*, we have to go and strain that nigh to the breaking point. *Deep Sigh* But be that as it may it has to happen here. If it's a choice between Norn being a racist jerk or Finrod being a casual imperialist, I know which character assassination I'm more comfortable with. Sorry, Norn.
Fingon's disappointment with Turgon not visiting him is very clear. He sounds a bit hurt. But then, Turgon is about to abandon him without word for several hundred years, so I guess he's right to have a complex! And having Fingon/Turgon, who-is-the-good-son discussions definitely ties back to the Fëanor/Fingolfin conflicts in Season 2.
I am a little concerned about the emphasis on dreams, rather than on foresight, in the discussion between Fingolfin, Fingon, and Aredhel. I certainly see where this is coming from - Turgon indeed had dreams, and they're a concrete thing to discuss. But when Fingolfin comments on it, I'd rather he comment on how Turgon's foresight has always been good, not that he's always had helpful dreams. The reason being that foresight is a personal trait, associated with elves, and involves the will. Dreams are something that passively happen to you, and while they can be taken as prophetic and providential, dreams in and of themselves are not tied into the will of the elf in question. We don't want to portray Turgon as someone led around by the nose by his visions/dreams. We want to portray him as a visionary leader of his people. What Fingolfin trusts is Turgon's insight and decisions. It is too cute, though, that Fingon dreams about Maedhros; of course he does! I like that light-hearted moment, but at the same time, experience a bit of mood-whiplash to go from laughing over that directly to the final farewell of Aredhel with Fingon and Fingolfin. Perhaps Fingon's anecdote should be much earlier in that scene, so we get the light-hearted stuff out of the way up front with the 'oh, so happy to see you!' stuff, and then gradually move into the more serious matter of Turgon, and on to the farewell?
Act II:
As a practical point, Mîm-the-condemned-thief would not have been allowed to keep the necklace he stole! I realize there can be a way in which he hid it, and smuggled it out with his belongings when he was exiled, but...realistically, if they caught him stealing, they would have made sure they got the item back from him. And I understand how helpful the golden necklace is in these scenes. It's just... I don't see him still having it as a believable development. I do like that theft rather than murder is the first crime we are presented with, and how utterly unrepentant Mîm seems about the whole affair.
As a comment on nomenclature - we did discuss what the 'petty-dwarves' would be called. It's fine for them to refer to the others as Clan-dwarves. And thus to refer to themselves as Clan-less or Houseless. Norn should refer to them as the Exiles (as you have him do), but not use the term 'petty-dwarves'. It's fine that he uses the Sindarin version of Petty-dwarves of course (we're just avoiding that English translation).
"Mold doth always resist being scrubbed from stone." I like the introduction of cultural sayings among the dwarves! Certainly, referring to them as 'mold' makes his opinion quite clear, and having it be about stone is good and dwarvish. And mold is something that grows in the dark and damp, so...yeah, this works. Tolkien has so many 'sayings' in his work, and some are so close (and yet just a hair removed) from English sayings: Goldberry's "Make haste while the sun shines" for instance.
Act III:
Curufin folding his napkin into a Fëanorean star, ha! *grin* And Aredhel missing Celegorm...good, good.
About the conversation about crowns. Turgon was crowned king of Nevrast by Fingolfin. He didn't set himself up as king. I realize that Curufin's desire to be a lord should come out in this conversation, and some resentment that Maedhros has prevented that....but. I feel like Aredhel would do a better job defending her brother from what Curufin is insinuating here. Also, the Ban includes wearing gems, so Turgon may have stopped wearing his garnet-studded crown after that. And I want to like the reference to Celebrimbor's jewelry-making more than I do.
Fur pelts of Tevildo's cats....I am fine with a white one being gifted to Aredhel. She should wear white, and we also decided that incorporating fur into costumes of Fingolfin's host would be a feature of those who crossed the Helcaraxë. So...not that Fëanoreans in the cold north can't use furs...but...we might want to think this through. Also, uh...wearing body parts of your enemies is a rather barbaric practice. I realize that if your enemy is a giant beast, this doesn't necessarily have the same connotation, but... My orc costume has a necklace of dried and blackened elf ears, and a bunch of deer bones and fur pelts on it. Because...orc. I would not expect an elf to wear a necklace of dried orc ears! (No, not even a Fëanorean) When one has Talking Beasts in one's story, one must think through the implications.....
Do we want Curufin and Celegorm to see through Aredhel so distinctly that they know Turgon is building a secret realm? And that Aredhel is saying her final farewells? That seems...a bit too far. This reads like Curufin and Celegorm have read ahead! I am inclined to put question marks all over this entire palantiri conversation. Honestly, nothing is said here that the audience needs to hear.
Amras-the-painter? Sure, why not.
ACT IV --> This designation is missing from the script, by the way.
I am fine with Norn's brother Dorn being a peaceable guy whom everyone loved. I'm not sure that 'dwarven shepherd' is a direction we want to go in, though. Dwarves aren't really much into caring for domesticated animals. I do like how the reveal of murder and Norn's appeal to Mablung is juxtaposed with the very Trail-of-Tears forcible eviction. We really feel for Mablung's dilemma in this scene.
Norn's aging throughout this episode is necessary, of course, and in general I like that. He is going to be too old by the time Nargothrond is complete. However, we wanted to save the issue of mortality for Season 5. So, as of right now, the elves don't 'get' that dwarves age and die of natural causes. And the dwarves are secretive enough to want to keep that from them. So, if Norn were really so aged and decrepit...he would likely decline the invitation and not travel to Nargothrond. So, I think that if we want him there, he has to still be hale enough to get around and not be forgetful/senile. I'm also not very happy about the origin of the Nauglamir. We were hoping to have the bright young dwarf 'Zirak' craft it for Finrod, possibly after Norn's death. So, as a suggestion, I would say that Norn can skip the final scene (the audience might figure out that he's too old to travel or has even died), and send a young dwarf in his stead. Zirak could then present a gift that does not have the 'baggage' that this does. I understand wanting to have Mablung, Norn, and Finrod in this final scene. I just don't necessarily like this as the final scene for them.
Finrod seeing the vision of Turgon in the mist is so cool!
Suggested Edits:
p. 7 "It is not about Orcs that I am concerned." --> "It is not about Orcs alone that I am concerned." I'd insert an 'only' in there. Norn's distrust should extend to the leaguer of the Noldor, which after all is not fool-proof. He's not going to gainsay Mablung, but he also would not be overly surprised to run into orcs or wolves out here. Better safe than sorry and all of that.
p. 13 "And if Turgon doth claim that dreams have again guided him, I trust this. Never have his dreams proven false, and, often, they have indeed shown the will of the Valar. It is good that Ulmo, at least, hath not consigned us to our doom. " --> "And if Turgon doth claim that dreams have again guided him, I trust this. Never hath his foresight proven false, and, often, he hath seen more deeply and more truly to the heart of a matter than the rest of us. It is good that Ulmo, at least, hath not consigned us to our doom, if indeed he be the source of these dreams of your brother's.
I'd like to redirect Fingolfin's reaction. He's not likely to take Aredhel's word that Turgon's dreams are from Ulmo at face value. While not necessarily disbelieving it, he wouldn't just accept it, either. And, as stated above, I'm more interested in a statement from him about Tur"gon's history of demonstrated good sense and wisdom than in his history of prophetic dreams.
p. 22 "Dears begin to trickle down [Daughter]’s face. " --> "Tears begin to trickle down [Daughter]’s face. " Just a typo, of course. Honestly, do we need to name Mîm's daughter? I know he addresses her once prior to this, but....the fact that she calls Mîm 'father' establishes who she is.
p. 32 "I thank ye both for letting me stay here." --> "I thank thee both for thy hospitality/warm welcome/company" Honestly, I thank someone for 'letting me stay there' when I visit a friend's house. Very modern sounding. "Of course." --> "I hope to!" or "I hope it may be so!" Aredhel would not wish to be dishonest with her dear (half-)cousins. She knows she may not see them again, though she certainly does hope she may.
Last edited:
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Thank you so, so much for the feedback!
I noticed the mood-whiplash issue in this scene when I was working on the script yesterday, and I've already made some changes that I hope have made it better.
I use the term "Petty-dwarves" mostly when describing the characters (Petty-dwarf 1, Petty-dwarf 2, etc.) because I thought that just make the script easier for someone who has read The Silmarillion or The Children of Hurin to read. I think the only time the characters use it is when Norn gives the translation of Nibin-nogrim, so it comes in a list of insults.
I've thought through Curufin's palantir a bit more, and I have a clearer idea of a potential direction for this story to go.
What if Curufin and the things he makes are kind of an antiparallel to Turgon and Gondolin? In the Dagor Bragollach, Celegorm and Curufin are going to flee to Nargothrond, abandoning the Pass of Aglon. When this happens, Curufin, not loving to well the work of his hands and realizing how bad it would be if Morgoth got hold of his Palantir, destroys it and the things in his workshop he cannot take with him. It's a moment of personal sacrifice that Curufin makes on behalf of his people, but it's also a very logical thing for him to do in the situation, so I don't think it would be out of character. And, what if, to raise the stakes, Curufin's palantir can see the location of Gondolin?
I see what you mean about foresight vs. dreams, and I'll definitely change what Fingolfin says to talking about foresight, but I want to make sure it is clear that Turgon founded Gondolin based on a dream that was a message from Ulmo rather than just his own foresight. Maybe they could say something about Turgon being more sensitive to these things because of his wisdom and foresight.
I noticed the mood-whiplash issue in this scene when I was working on the script yesterday, and I've already made some changes that I hope have made it better.
I really like Mim having the necklace with him and Norn taking it. I wanted to introduce it early in the episode since I have Finrod giving jewels to the Dwarves and then the Nauglamir at the end. Maybe I could have Norn talk a little more about the crime and make suppositions about how Mim managed to smuggle it out of Belegost, or maybe Mim could get further in his story of taking it and grumble about being caught, or his daughter could mention how he had managed to keep it from the Clan-dwarves throughout his exile only to lose it now.
I use the term "Petty-dwarves" mostly when describing the characters (Petty-dwarf 1, Petty-dwarf 2, etc.) because I thought that just make the script easier for someone who has read The Silmarillion or The Children of Hurin to read. I think the only time the characters use it is when Norn gives the translation of Nibin-nogrim, so it comes in a list of insults.
What I'm trying to convey is that Turgon and his people have gone from calling him "Lord" to calling him "King." This begins with Thorondor calling him "King of the Hidden City" in Episode 11. I need to be more clear about that, and this is another kind of awkward scene that I need to rewrite.
I wanted Aredhel to have something to take to Gondolin with her to remind her of the enemy, and I thought war spoils would be the best option for that. Moreover, I like it being something a little barbaric. If Turgon knew the source of Aredhel's new fur cape, he would probably not approve. However, I don't think it is nearly at the same level as a necklace of dried Orc ears.
In our script discussion, I remember us saying that Curufin should see through Aredhel, even though she doesn't tell him directly about Gondolin.
I've thought through Curufin's palantir a bit more, and I have a clearer idea of a potential direction for this story to go.
What if Curufin and the things he makes are kind of an antiparallel to Turgon and Gondolin? In the Dagor Bragollach, Celegorm and Curufin are going to flee to Nargothrond, abandoning the Pass of Aglon. When this happens, Curufin, not loving to well the work of his hands and realizing how bad it would be if Morgoth got hold of his Palantir, destroys it and the things in his workshop he cannot take with him. It's a moment of personal sacrifice that Curufin makes on behalf of his people, but it's also a very logical thing for him to do in the situation, so I don't think it would be out of character. And, what if, to raise the stakes, Curufin's palantir can see the location of Gondolin?
Thanks for catching that.
What I was trying to do in that scene is have Norn be really old but Finrod not understanding what is wrong with him or that he will soon die, but I could introduce Zirak earlier in the episode and have him at the end and Finrod asking where Norn is.
Thank you for all of these. I will make the changes.
Yes, some of my complaints are not easy to fix without reworking a lot of things. There may be ways around some of my concerns.
So, for the necklace, perhaps Mîm fled before he was caught? So, he's not an exile, but a criminal on the run from the Clan Dwarves - he would face justice if he ever returned home, so he cannot, making his exile an effective thing rather than a literal thing. And everyone knows he stole it, because he vanished at the same time as the necklace, etc. Do the dwarves try people in absentia? Whereas the murderer who killed Dorn was caught, tried, and given exile as a sentence for his crime.
That still doesn't get around the extremely bad taste of the Nauglamir being a regifted stolen good. The Nauglamir should be a great work of dwarven craft. I am not a huge fan of regifting Finrod's jewels to him, essentially robbing the individual workmen of the payment he granted them. The whole thing feels cheap and dishonest. I don't think we need the Nauglamir in this episode at all, especially not if this is the origin story for it!
I am not a fan of killing Norn off before the end of the episode - I think it is good to have a final scene with Finrod, Norn, and Mablung. I just...would prefer that Norn not have one foot in the grave in that scene. Norn was the one who figured out that elves don't age/die, and diplomatically warned Azaghal not to say anything about that. In other words, we introduced Norn as the dwarf who personally decided it was important to hide the mortality of dwarves from the elves. We can't have him...deciding to go on a journey in his extreme old age and 'revealing' what that looks like to the elves. We could have a hand-off, to Norn's young apprentice, who joins him part way through the episode or something, if we had to. But with Norn's final scene, as currently written, I feel like we do nothing good for the character and it's the opposite of a good send-off. I'd prefer his story about his brother while the Trail-of-Tears play in the background be the last we see of him... to this.
So, in the interest of not trying to rewrite anything significant or make sweeping changes at this stage in the game, I could go along with:
It's true we wanted Curufin to see more than Aredhel revealed. But we certainly didn't want Curufin to see the entirety of the story! This scene honestly reads like the Fëanoreans read the script and know what Aredhel is up to that way. I'd be fine replacing it with a simple exchange as Aredhel rides away. Celegorm looks after her, and remarks how happy he was to have Aredhel visit them. And Curufin replies, 'But why now?' or something that gives away he is suspicious of this whole 'farewell tour' thing without being suspicious that Turgon has built a secret city in a hidden location and Aredhel is planning to join him there, and thus will try to do one last thing before she goes. In 'A Conspiracy Unmasked', the hobbits had plenty of access to Frodo, they knew him very well, and he 'gave away' his secrets over an entire lifetime. Merry saw the Ring at work, and they were all part of Frodo's 'farewell tour' of the Shire. In this case...Turgon's not there. And Turgon is not a particular friend to the Sons of Fëanor (quite the opposite). So, for them to deduce Turgon's precise actions based on some vague hints they're getting from Aredhel? No. They know something is up. They don't know what. There is no reason for them to suspect the existence of Gondolin at this point in the story.
Also, more importantly, we had a discussion about palantiri in Middle-earth back when we discussed Fëanor making them in the first place (Season 2). And one of the verdicts of that discussion was 'no palantiri in Middle-earth in the First Age'. We jussssst skirted around that rule by having a palantir on the ships that came to Middle-earth be lost in the Firth of Drengist when the ships burned, and we justified its inclusion as the indication that Amrod was looking back towards Valinor and his mother. But the whole point was...it was destroyed and cannot influence the story in any way after that episode. Giving Curufin a palantir from now until the Dagor Bragollach reintroduces some of the issues inherent with the palantiri. And...he doesn't need it. He's not going to do anything super significant with it. There's not going to be a 'black fleet from Pelargir' moment for Curufin if we let him have this. So, ultimately, this will make a palantir look like a rather useless artifact that only lets Curufin do/see minor unimportant things. That's...not the look we're going for with the palantiri!
If you want Curufin to be working on something cool in his workshop, I suggest you pick something else.
So, for the necklace, perhaps Mîm fled before he was caught? So, he's not an exile, but a criminal on the run from the Clan Dwarves - he would face justice if he ever returned home, so he cannot, making his exile an effective thing rather than a literal thing. And everyone knows he stole it, because he vanished at the same time as the necklace, etc. Do the dwarves try people in absentia? Whereas the murderer who killed Dorn was caught, tried, and given exile as a sentence for his crime.
That still doesn't get around the extremely bad taste of the Nauglamir being a regifted stolen good. The Nauglamir should be a great work of dwarven craft. I am not a huge fan of regifting Finrod's jewels to him, essentially robbing the individual workmen of the payment he granted them. The whole thing feels cheap and dishonest. I don't think we need the Nauglamir in this episode at all, especially not if this is the origin story for it!
I am not a fan of killing Norn off before the end of the episode - I think it is good to have a final scene with Finrod, Norn, and Mablung. I just...would prefer that Norn not have one foot in the grave in that scene. Norn was the one who figured out that elves don't age/die, and diplomatically warned Azaghal not to say anything about that. In other words, we introduced Norn as the dwarf who personally decided it was important to hide the mortality of dwarves from the elves. We can't have him...deciding to go on a journey in his extreme old age and 'revealing' what that looks like to the elves. We could have a hand-off, to Norn's young apprentice, who joins him part way through the episode or something, if we had to. But with Norn's final scene, as currently written, I feel like we do nothing good for the character and it's the opposite of a good send-off. I'd prefer his story about his brother while the Trail-of-Tears play in the background be the last we see of him... to this.
So, in the interest of not trying to rewrite anything significant or make sweeping changes at this stage in the game, I could go along with:
a) A better backstory on the necklace that doesn't make the dwarves of Belegost seem stupidly incompetent - they caught the thief, but let him go before he returned the stolen item? What? Let's...not do that.
b) An aged Norn who appears hale so that elves may remark upon his changed appearance, but not be concerned he's about to keel over dead. We don't want the elves to be idiots for not noticing extreme old age. Nor do we want Norn making long arduous journeys when he's in his (in dwarf years) 90's.
c) Maybe no Nauglamir?
The one thing that I think it would be very easy to remove is the scene with the palantir. I think it can simply be excised in its entirety with no loss. In the previous scene, Curufin says he'll send a message to Amras, and in the next scene, Amras says he received a message. The audience is not left 'missing' anything at all. The only 'build up' to this scene was Curufin hiding something in his workshop under a napkin. He could simply...not do that. It's true we wanted Curufin to see more than Aredhel revealed. But we certainly didn't want Curufin to see the entirety of the story! This scene honestly reads like the Fëanoreans read the script and know what Aredhel is up to that way. I'd be fine replacing it with a simple exchange as Aredhel rides away. Celegorm looks after her, and remarks how happy he was to have Aredhel visit them. And Curufin replies, 'But why now?' or something that gives away he is suspicious of this whole 'farewell tour' thing without being suspicious that Turgon has built a secret city in a hidden location and Aredhel is planning to join him there, and thus will try to do one last thing before she goes. In 'A Conspiracy Unmasked', the hobbits had plenty of access to Frodo, they knew him very well, and he 'gave away' his secrets over an entire lifetime. Merry saw the Ring at work, and they were all part of Frodo's 'farewell tour' of the Shire. In this case...Turgon's not there. And Turgon is not a particular friend to the Sons of Fëanor (quite the opposite). So, for them to deduce Turgon's precise actions based on some vague hints they're getting from Aredhel? No. They know something is up. They don't know what. There is no reason for them to suspect the existence of Gondolin at this point in the story.
Also, more importantly, we had a discussion about palantiri in Middle-earth back when we discussed Fëanor making them in the first place (Season 2). And one of the verdicts of that discussion was 'no palantiri in Middle-earth in the First Age'. We jussssst skirted around that rule by having a palantir on the ships that came to Middle-earth be lost in the Firth of Drengist when the ships burned, and we justified its inclusion as the indication that Amrod was looking back towards Valinor and his mother. But the whole point was...it was destroyed and cannot influence the story in any way after that episode. Giving Curufin a palantir from now until the Dagor Bragollach reintroduces some of the issues inherent with the palantiri. And...he doesn't need it. He's not going to do anything super significant with it. There's not going to be a 'black fleet from Pelargir' moment for Curufin if we let him have this. So, ultimately, this will make a palantir look like a rather useless artifact that only lets Curufin do/see minor unimportant things. That's...not the look we're going for with the palantiri!
If you want Curufin to be working on something cool in his workshop, I suggest you pick something else.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
So, I'm going to try to divide my notes by category: structure and pacing, tone, and dialogue.
Structure and pacing:
The second scene also feels rather short to me. The tone of the scene is good, and I think the transition between conversation topics (from the impending nuptials to Norn's general suspicions) is clever. I think, however that the transition may be a bit too fast, which might be why it feels like we are visiting them so briefly. Perhaps they can discuss what they are doing out there in the first place. We aren't going to see them again in the first act, so setting up their plot would be ideal. Also, some acknowledgement of the preparedness of Norn's entourage rather than just his own might help set this up as being more than just Norn being personally paranoid.
On the other hand, I do like the characterization of the relationship between Celeborn and Curufin as viewed from someone outside their siblings.
He could be painting by firelight when she arrives, and as they talk, she starts looking over the works he has around.
Structure and pacing:
This is obviously meant to get Idril along for the ride as soon as possible, but the exclamation suggests a decision longer in the making. The rapidity with which Idril makes this declaration is part of why the scene feels so short. I took the liberty of reading it on mic and it came in at 1:45, including pauses for transition shots (to the rest of the scene with Aredhel) and a few errors. For a scene this early in the episode, that is very short. Idril comes and goes from the scene within the first 25 seconds. Certainly not enough time for us to get comfortable with her. True, Aredhel is a much more critical character for the episode, but in the scene with Idril, she is silent. Perhaps if the two scenes were combined, with some exchanges between Idril and Aredhel to give their relationship more room to breathe, it might feel more a part of the story. Then, sensing Aredhel's trepidation, Turgon might pull her aside as Idril moves on to other matters.
The second scene also feels rather short to me. The tone of the scene is good, and I think the transition between conversation topics (from the impending nuptials to Norn's general suspicions) is clever. I think, however that the transition may be a bit too fast, which might be why it feels like we are visiting them so briefly. Perhaps they can discuss what they are doing out there in the first place. We aren't going to see them again in the first act, so setting up their plot would be ideal. Also, some acknowledgement of the preparedness of Norn's entourage rather than just his own might help set this up as being more than just Norn being personally paranoid.
This all happens quite quickly once Turgon has finished his speech. There is no expression or vocalization of the doubts of the craftspeople here, of which there should be a few.
The whole sequence between Aredhel and the C-bros feels a bit long and meandering. The dialogue alone comes in over five minutes, and I daresay that the Werewolf chase would have to be at least another three if not longer. I get the desire to depict Aredhel hunting with these guys, but I don't think it is good use of our time. I also agree with @MithLuin, that the wearing of skins and other body parts from sentient enemies is a bit macabre. Toned down somewhat, it might not be that bad.
On the other hand, I do like the characterization of the relationship between Celeborn and Curufin as viewed from someone outside their siblings.
So, the whole sequence between Aredhel's goodbye to the C-bros and her visit with Amras drags quite a bit, coming in somewhere around seven minutes long. There are a few notes I have about some of the individual scenes, but I want to address the structure first. Truncating the farewells will help quite a bit. We can assume that if they know where she is headed already, the C-bros can have already told her where to find Amras. In fact, it would be a little strange for her to wait until the very moment of her departure to discuss that with them. The scene with the palantir, which I will get to, is also an easy cut. Once in Amras' camp, I would keep it to a single scene. Have Aredhel brought into his tent at first. Also, the departure from the tent seems odd to me. I'm not entirely sure why he doesn't have a fire in there, if it is just a matter of relating the fire to the burning of the ships. As written, it seems like he escorts her to his tent just so that she can see the paintings, since he ducks out pretty much as soon as they start talking.
He could be painting by firelight when she arrives, and as they talk, she starts looking over the works he has around.
The conclusion to this scene is very fast, with Aredhel seeming to make her mind up on the matter of Gondolin in an instant. Perhaps if Idril did more to vocalize her reasons why SHE wants to go to Gondolin, it might feel less rushed.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Shocker... I bumped my head on the 10000 character limit ... again...
Tone:
Firstly, surely Fingon knows that had Turgon arrived to aid them at the Dagor Aglareb, Vinyamar would have fallen. The line makes him seem a bit petulant. And if he does say the line, Fingolfin would have to respond to that.
Secondly, Fingolfin's line is indicative of the problem I'm having with making the fact that Ulmo is sending the dreams known from the start. Rather than focusing on Fingolfin's trust in Turgon, we are talking about how good Ulmo is. And honestly, the Noldor have no reason to assume that the dreams come from Ulmo at this point. He had very little contact with them during their time in Valinor, and they have no reason to assume he is working outside of the stated will of Manwe. Now, it seems like this is a setup so that the audience isn't caught completely off guard when Ulmo shows up, but it is important to remember that the audience is privy to knowledge about Ulmo that the Noldor are not. Having them learn of Ulmo's support of them is much more powerful than having them already aware of it.
All of this said, I really love the embrace between Fingolfin, Fingon, and Aredhel at the end of the scene. Imagining this last moment they will have together until after they have all been killed (which isn't all that far away in Elvish terms) was quite emotional. It also put me in mind of the scene with Elenwe's death where Fingolfin was the one to pull Turgon out of the water, keeping him from diving back in again by this same embrace. At every turn, we show that Fingolfin, for what flaws he has, is an amazing father to his children, which does more to show him as a good king than just about anything else we could do.
Ok, firstly, *tears I assume?
Secondly, I get it. It's Mim, making a meme... and we may have discussed it when we were talking about this episode.... but, it feels really awkward, and could easily distract from the tone of this scene. If someone is laughing at the end of this, I'm going to say that we've failed. The scene feels a tad on the short side, which ... probably would be fine, considering its placement in the episode, except for the fact that this is really our only peek into the lives of these people. I think we might be able to do better by them. Lingering on their settlement a bit in the intro shots might help a bit, giving us more about their day-to-day life. I also think that they abandon the idea of fighting off their "oppressors" a bit too quickly.
Ok, let's talk palantir for a minute. I want to be crystal (see what I did there?) clear on this. I am not a fan of putting a palantir in Middle-earth at this time. It causes all sorts of problems that require us to go out of our way to solve. And it's necessary, why? To show Curufin is a great craftsman? Surely we can do so without resorting to the problematic introduction of palantiri into the hands of First Age Noldor. The whole sequence is overlong anyway, and I would rather cut that whole bit after Aredhel has left. We've been over this at length and thus far I have seen no convincing need to put ourselves through the effort of getting that palantir out of Curufin's hands once he has it. @MithLuin is absolutely correct. Either it's a useless bauble, or it interferes with the story, and I'm not ok with either of those things.
The scene with Amras around the fire, though... that was well done. I'm really impressed with the capture of his lack of hope in this situation. And spoiler alert: he's right.
What I will say is that I love the interactions between old Norn and old Mim. These two ancient guys going at it over an argument that they had years ago is fantastic, and really speaks to the issues we're dealing with here.
Tone:
I've gone one record as being strongly against Turgon being certain that his visions have been coming from Ulmo. It takes a fair amount of his agency away from him, as @MithLuin hints above. It also reduces the impact of Ulmo's appearance at the end of this episode. I know that there is a value to showing that Turgon has faith still in the Valar, but I would suggest that focusing more upon Turgon's people's faith in him rather than on their faith in Ulmo would be a better tack.
Firstly, surely Fingon knows that had Turgon arrived to aid them at the Dagor Aglareb, Vinyamar would have fallen. The line makes him seem a bit petulant. And if he does say the line, Fingolfin would have to respond to that.
Secondly, Fingolfin's line is indicative of the problem I'm having with making the fact that Ulmo is sending the dreams known from the start. Rather than focusing on Fingolfin's trust in Turgon, we are talking about how good Ulmo is. And honestly, the Noldor have no reason to assume that the dreams come from Ulmo at this point. He had very little contact with them during their time in Valinor, and they have no reason to assume he is working outside of the stated will of Manwe. Now, it seems like this is a setup so that the audience isn't caught completely off guard when Ulmo shows up, but it is important to remember that the audience is privy to knowledge about Ulmo that the Noldor are not. Having them learn of Ulmo's support of them is much more powerful than having them already aware of it.
All of this said, I really love the embrace between Fingolfin, Fingon, and Aredhel at the end of the scene. Imagining this last moment they will have together until after they have all been killed (which isn't all that far away in Elvish terms) was quite emotional. It also put me in mind of the scene with Elenwe's death where Fingolfin was the one to pull Turgon out of the water, keeping him from diving back in again by this same embrace. At every turn, we show that Fingolfin, for what flaws he has, is an amazing father to his children, which does more to show him as a good king than just about anything else we could do.
Ok, so the necklace thing... @MithLuin has already brought this up, and it was a red flag to me as well. I would say that rather then getting into elaborate backstory about it, have Norn surprised that Mim somehow has the thing in his possession when it is thought to have been lost deep in a chasm or something. He could demand an explanation and Mim could simply refuse to give it. It gives depth to the story (hinting at some past derring-do on the part of Mim) without spending a lot of time on it.
Secondly, I get it. It's Mim, making a meme... and we may have discussed it when we were talking about this episode.... but, it feels really awkward, and could easily distract from the tone of this scene. If someone is laughing at the end of this, I'm going to say that we've failed. The scene feels a tad on the short side, which ... probably would be fine, considering its placement in the episode, except for the fact that this is really our only peek into the lives of these people. I think we might be able to do better by them. Lingering on their settlement a bit in the intro shots might help a bit, giving us more about their day-to-day life. I also think that they abandon the idea of fighting off their "oppressors" a bit too quickly.
I really love the finding of the grave-pit. One thing about this smile of Norn's at the end of the scene, though. I don't like it. He wants these guys gone. He can't stand them. He thinks they're rotten. But ... he's not petty about this. I feel like he thinks that getting rid of the petty-Dwarves' runes is important and necessary, but I don't think that means he gets enjoyment out of it. He should be stern, not giddy.
Ok, let's talk palantir for a minute. I want to be crystal (see what I did there?) clear on this. I am not a fan of putting a palantir in Middle-earth at this time. It causes all sorts of problems that require us to go out of our way to solve. And it's necessary, why? To show Curufin is a great craftsman? Surely we can do so without resorting to the problematic introduction of palantiri into the hands of First Age Noldor. The whole sequence is overlong anyway, and I would rather cut that whole bit after Aredhel has left. We've been over this at length and thus far I have seen no convincing need to put ourselves through the effort of getting that palantir out of Curufin's hands once he has it. @MithLuin is absolutely correct. Either it's a useless bauble, or it interferes with the story, and I'm not ok with either of those things.
The scene with Amras around the fire, though... that was well done. I'm really impressed with the capture of his lack of hope in this situation. And spoiler alert: he's right.
So, I think there is a lot of good stuff in this scene, but I'm a bit confused. Is this kid's face right in front of the hole? Why? Presumably, the Petty-Dwarves can hear the drill-ram banging on the wall and wouldn't let him stand right there. The way this is written also suggests that more faces appear next to his at the hole, which I don't think is what you meant. I would suggest having the whole wall fall away at once (this can happen pretty easily with sedimentary rock (which being this close to the river, might well be what we're dealing with)). And while I can certainly see the value of having the first person they see be a child, I would think that having a nest of folks huddled against the far wall would make more sense.
What I will say is that I love the interactions between old Norn and old Mim. These two ancient guys going at it over an argument that they had years ago is fantastic, and really speaks to the issues we're dealing with here.
So, I agree with @MithLuin, that the shepherd thing is a bit too far. All the things she said about that? Me too.
@Rhiannon, I think you're a fantastic scene-writer. I get chills thinking about this scene. And the more chills I get, the more strongly I feel that Turgon should not know with anything resembling certainty that his visions are coming from Ulmo. He might "know" on some level which he never vocalizes (As in, LEIA: [almost dreamlike] I know ... somehow ... I've always known.). His joy at learning that Ulmo has been watching over them this whole time would be all the more full if we get it all at once and right now.