Session 1.15

I do kind of like the idea of the Valar being at least partially unaware of the betrayal of Mairon. It could even seem as though he was just lost in the shuffle of the war itself. By the way, I think that as a general outline, Haakon has nailed it. We might as well not even have a broadcast this Friday. :)

I know you're joking, but I feel the need to point out that he has outlined Episode 12, but this Friday's broadcast is meant to go over Episode 13. We spent our Episode 12 session talking about orcs and Episode 11 frame.

Speaking of frame....

Episode 13 frame should begin with Gilraen and resolve her earlier conflicts with Elrond. I think the swordfighting could happen in an earlier episode in part of the 'be prepared' stuff that leads up to the war. Beginning to train a child of 7 or 8 in swordfighting is not at all unusual, so 10 year old Aragorn should definitely be getting the basics of footwork and how to hold the center and keep his eye on his opponent's face, how to cut, etc. The only discussion, really should be about when he's ready to apply any of these skills practically, to which 'not yet' is a reasonable response. He can go hunting, but he should not be joining Elladan and Elrohir in chasing after a band of orcs or trolls. Gilraen wants him to have this practical education, yes, but I would have difficulty seeing any mother eager to thrust her only child into danger at the age of 10. So, there is a common ground between Gilraen and Elrond there, and I do not see this as their final conflict/resolution. Rather, episode 13 should be focusing on his identity/destiny, with Elrond and Gilraen reaching an agreement that he is being prepared and should not yet be told who he truly is, and the anonymity is good for his education.

The end of Episode 13's frame is the return of Bilbo and Gandalf after the Battle of 5 Armies and the aftermath and cost of war. Bilbo may have been complaining about travelling with dwarves in a good-natured way on the outward journey...but now he would be clearly mourning the loss of Thorin Oakenshield, Fili and Kili. Bilbo (and/or Gandalf) can comment on how Thorin got what he wanted, but that his line ended and his cousin, not he or his nephews, would now sit on the throne of his grandfather. I don't think we have to worry too much about 'spoiling' the plot of the Hobbit, but if that is a concern, we can be more vague, and focus on Bilbo's experience of being in a battle, but how it wasn't what he thought. Also, the fact that he tried to do everything he could to avoid the battle, but then it happened anyway would be the obvious tie-in with Manwë's experience with the War to Begin All Wars. It might seem a little contrived why he would share this insight with a child, but if we've established that they know each other, it would be natural for Estel to greet him, welcoming him back and asking about his adventure...to which Bilbo replies with a characteristic hobbity down-play of, 'oh, well, you know - I went there, and now I've come back again.' And go from there. Estel could also share 'news' that he is one of the Dunedain, the great Men of the West, and that he will have adventures of his own some day - because perhaps Gilraen and Elrond agreed to tell him that much.
 
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Regarding Orcs
I have listened to Session 1.15 about four times now and what a session! We have so many great elements and dramatic moments that will make a great story and we just need to get them going together right. I did feel that the hosts tripped at the finish line in regard to the orcs. Remember they did say that they haven’t made absolute decisions. I first asked the hosts about the timing of the chronology just after the plot outline for Season 1 was formulated and since then I have embraced the concept of the elves awakening after the War of Powers. So let’s make it happen. The only reason they didn’t was because they didn’t crack it.

So what are the orc elements that we are in favour of?

· Trish said in relation to the orcs that the Aule story will help in telling the story of putting your will into your creations so we can do the fantastic story that came out of the Aule episode about Melkor copying Aule in his creation of the orcs.

· Embodied maiar are able to reproduce with something else and can bring about the creation of lesser beings.

· Orc chieftains Boldog were used in early versions of the Silmarillion.

· Melkor draws up the blueprints for orcs and Sauron carries it out while Melkor is imprisoned. Sauron then gets to be in charge of the (SSTNOP) Super Secret Taboo Necromantic Orc Program (I hope I got that right MithLuin).

· We need orcs for the Battle under the Stars.

· We also need orcs to have free will.

We also have some fantastic dramatic moments that we don’t want to lose:

· The final scene being the elves awakening which is also the first scene to show elves, making Season One purely Valar centric.

· Melkor returning to Middle Earth maimed and then in retribution transforms captured elves into orcs.

The element I have the most amount of difficulty with in the discussions is the idea of Sauron or Melkor finding the elves before they awake. I find the idea repulsive, not of Melkor but of Iluvatar in that he would allow his children to be tainted before they were even active in the world. See my post from last session thread http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-1-14.126/#post-1459

I have worked out a way to keep all these elements in that the development of the orcs can mirror Tolkien’s own development of them. This does not need to be told in these episodes, but as long as it can be revealed or parts told later down the track as needed. Also none of what has been discussed even touches on the drama of the kindling of the stars by Varda and how that is woven into the story, but I shall keep that for my plot summary.

· Orc 1.0
o Mairon brings the news of Aule and the dwarves to Melkor and Melkor begins his own R&D into his creatures that will worship and serve him.
o He discovers like Aule that they need the will of another to get them to move. These are basically the rock and slime creatures.​

· Orc 2.0
o He creates his lieutenants, larger and stronger and able to contain the fea of a maiar spirit. These are Boldog. It is then the will of Boldogs that force Orc 1.0 into action.
o These are the creatures driven by Boldogs that attack the elven realms in Beleriand in the ages of the stars and the Battle under the Stars.​

· Orc 3.0
o Sauron in the absence of Melkor continues with the SSTNOP including his own tinkering of fusing fea and hroa (not shown on screen). In addition he captures elves (after the awakening under the stars) and attempts (ie tortures) to convert them to Melkor worshipers. Failure.​

· Orc 4.0
o Melkor returns to Middle Earth and in retribution transforms the captured elves into orcs.
o (Optional) He continues with the SSTNOP breeding different combinations of Orc 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 together resulting in orcs with free will who come at the summons from the dark lord, like a hormone kicking in during adolescence.​
 
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Remmirath = the Netted Stars, and is commonly identified as the Pleiades. I think this can be included in this 'phase 2' star-making, though not mentioned on the list. Wilwarin = Butterfly, and I agree is likely meant to be Cassiopeia.
Planets in Quenya include: Eärendil "Venus", Carnil "Mars", and Alcarinquë "Jupiter" and the elves were aware that these 'wandering stars' were different from the others. Obviously no Morning Star yet!

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/vocab.htm

Also, the Sickle of the Valar is Ursa Major, not Ursa Minor, to the best of my knowledge:
Valacirca noun "Sickle of the Gods", a name of the Great Bear (Big Dipper) constellation (SA:val-, MR:388, KIRIK, OT/OTOS/OTOK)

Telumendil
is trickier. My first assumption would be that this is meant to be Telumehtar, another name for Orion. Otherwise, the name seems to mean 'sky-canopy' which would not be a star or constellation.

Telimbectar ("k") noun,name of constellation:"Orion", lit. "Swordsman of Heaven". Also Telimectar ("k"). (LT1:268; in Tolkien's later Quenya Telumehtar, q.v. The combination ct is not found in LotR-style Quenya.)

telimbo noun "canopy, sky" (LT1:268)
telluma noun "dome, copula", especially the "Dome of Varda" over Valinor, but also applied to the domes of the mansion of Manwë and Varda upon Taniquetil. Adopted from Valarin delgūmāunder the influence of pure Quenya telumë (WJ:399, 411). Pl. tellumar is attested (Nam, RGEO:66).

But Encyclopedia of Arda has this to offer:



Not that Anarríma is any better. Anarríma name of a constellation: *"Sun-border"??? (Silm; cf. ríma) Ríma means "edge, hem, border"

Tolkien Gateway is hesitant to identify it:




For anyone interested, there is this 2003 essay on the topic:
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.ips-planetarium.org/resource/resmgr/pdf-articles/elvish.pdf
Thanks for the info MithLuin. Living in the southern Hemisphere I am a bit unfamiliar with the northern constellations but I did just check and the constellation that has Polaris, the sickle is Ursa Minor, the little bear.
I will try to incorporate these into my plot outline.
 
Yes, Polaris (the fixed North Star) is in Ursa Minor (the Little Dipper). The Sickle of the Valar, however, is Ursa Major, the Big Dipper. The sickle of the big dipper 'points' to Polaris. Poaris is a bright star, but overall the Little Dipper is made of smaller/dimmer stars. Most of the stars of the Big Dipper are very bright. It's the much more significant constellation.

Here is a fairly good illustration of how Ursa Major 'points' to Polaris:

dippers.jpg


I grew up in the Northern Hemisphere, at 39°43′ N latitude, and it was very common for me to be able to see the Milky Way from my house. :)
 
I'm so jealous. I've only seen the Milky Way once. But, yes, I'm fairly certain that the bright stars of the Sickle of the Valar are indeed those that run up the back of Ursa Major.
 
Regarding Orcs
I have listened to Session 1.15 about four times now and what a session! We have so many great elements and dramatic moments that will make a great story and we just need to get them going together right. I did feel that the hosts tripped at the finish line in regard to the orcs. Remember they did say that they haven’t made absolute decisions. I first asked the hosts about the timing of the chronology just after the plot outline for Season 1 was formulated and since then I have embraced the concept of the elves awakening after the War of Powers. So let’s make it happen. The only reason they didn’t was because they didn’t crack it.
Well, let's be honest, on a scale from 1 to 10 where 1 is "Kicking the orc can until Arda Healed" and 10 is "Totally nailed it!", the execs didn't reach 10. It was more of an 8, maybe a 9.
One thing that was clear though was the decision to have the cake and eat it. They wanted the war to be initiated not because of Melkor stealing the Children, but as a preemptive strike. But at the same time, they wanted the Children's Awakening to happen in time for Melkor to get his hands on some of them. So, what we're looking at is a combination of the BOLT and PubSil storylines, where the Valar is closer to BOLT and the Eldar find themselves more in PubSil.
 
I know you're joking, but I feel the need to point out that he has outlined Episode 12, but this Friday's broadcast is meant to go over Episode 13. We spent our Episode 12 session talking about orcs and Episode 11 frame.

Speaking of frame....

Episode 13 frame should begin with Gilraen and resolve her earlier conflicts with Elrond. I think the swordfighting could happen in an earlier episode in part of the 'be prepared' stuff that leads up to the war. Beginning to train a child of 7 or 8 in swordfighting is not at all unusual, so 10 year old Aragorn should definitely be getting the basics of footwork and how to hold the center and keep his eye on his opponent's face, how to cut, etc. The only discussion, really should be about when he's ready to apply any of these skills practically, to which 'not yet' is a reasonable response. He can go hunting, but he should not be joining Elladan and Elrohir in chasing after a band of orcs or trolls. Gilraen wants him to have this practical education, yes, but I would have difficulty seeing any mother eager to thrust her only child into danger at the age of 10. So, there is a common ground between Gilraen and Elrond there, and I do not see this as their final conflict/resolution. Rather, episode 13 should be focusing on his identity/destiny, with Elrond and Gilraen reaching an agreement that he is being prepared and should not yet be told who he truly is, and the anonymity is good for his education.

The end of Episode 13's frame is the return of Bilbo and Gandalf after the Battle of 5 Armies and the aftermath and cost of war. Bilbo may have been complaining about travelling with dwarves in a good-natured way on the outward journey...but now he would be clearly mourning the loss of Thorin Oakenshield, Fili and Kili. Bilbo (and/or Gandalf) can comment on how Thorin got what he wanted, but that his line ended and his cousin, not he or his nephews, would now sit on the throne of his grandfather. I don't think we have to worry too much about 'spoiling' the plot of the Hobbit, but if that is a concern, we can be more vague, and focus on Bilbo's experience of being in a battle, but how it wasn't what he thought. Also, the fact that he tried to do everything he could to avoid the battle, but then it happened anyway would be the obvious tie-in with Manwë's experience with the War to Begin All Wars. It might seem a little contrived why he would share this insight with a child, but if we've established that they know each other, it would be natural for Estel to greet him, welcoming him back and asking about his adventure...to which Bilbo replies with a characteristic hobbity down-play of, 'oh, well, you know - I went there, and now I've come back again.' And go from there. Estel could also share 'news' that he is one of the Dunedain, the great Men of the West, and that he will have adventures of his own some day - because perhaps Gilraen and Elrond agreed to tell him that much.
Yes! Great!

I think that we should begin episode 13 with a longer sequence of frame narrative scenes. Like, at least a third of the episode. We could begin with the heritage/identity question and then bring in Bilbo and Gandalf. There will be a beautiful transition from Bilbo's post battle feelings through Estel thinking about the horrors of war (perhaps both Elrond and Gilraen could be present) to the main story, and the decision by the Valar to leave the path of peace.
 
I'm so jealous. I've only seen the Milky Way once. But, yes, I'm fairly certain that the bright stars of the Sickle of the Valar are indeed those that run up the back of Ursa Major.
Yes I forgot that there was the big and the little dipper. They do look very similar and so close too. So which one is the plow? I have lived my whole life at 33deg south. Ask me anything about Cruxis and the pointers which are really the hooves of Centauris, Telescopium or Musca the fly and I can point out the LMC & the SMC. As for the Milky Way, we get the thickest part at the centre of the galaxy in Sagittarius right overhead. Beautiful!
 
I have never been to the southern hemisphere - the furthest south I have ever ventured was Dilla, Ethiopia, which is around 6°N. So strange to me for the north star to be just on the horizon like that! The furthest north I've ever been is the Cliffs of Moher in Ireland (52°N), and that was at the summer solstice, so it didn't really....get dark. I'm sure you see the best stars at sea, but I've been particularly impressed by the night sky at the north rim of the Grand Canyon and at Zion. The reason I could see the Milky Way from my house was because I grew up on an apple orchard in a valley surrounded by 100 acres of cornfield in a small town in rural Pennsylvania :). The latitude I gave is the Mason-Dixon line. I've never seen the northern lights or the southern cross.

I think it is safe to say that Tolkien was envisioning the stars of the northern sky when he was naming the constellations in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings...but whether or not we stick to that is another matter. Oxford, England is at 51°N latitude.
 
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I live at 59°N latitude but you can almost never see anything but the brightest stars because of the city lights. I've been to Iceland at about 64°N but that was in the beginning of summer and not very dark at all. I've only seen the Milky Way a few times. But of course the Big Dipper, or as we say, Great Bear (which actually consists of more stars), and Cassiopeia are easy to spot on any cloudless night. Here's a nice picture:
ursa.major.art-cropped.png
 
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He can go hunting, but he should not be joining Elladan and Elrohir in chasing after a band of orcs or trolls.
Oh MithLuin I was certainly not letting young Estel go orc hunting, that would be very irresponsible. And dangerous.
 
(EDIT: final draft in post #72, page 4)
Alright I've been messing around with the outline again. I made a sketch with both episodes 12 and 13. It's got more stars than the earlier draft. The stuff in e13 needs to be reworked and fleshed out - it's got some steps left upwards on the "Nailed it"-scale - (the transition from Third Age frame to the story about the Valar for example, is nonexistent) but it's something to discuss at least.

EPISODE 12:

1. (Could be moved back to the end of episode 11) Manwë and Varda are on Taniquetil, looking at the view of wonderful Valinor. The gardens of Lorien, the woods of Oromë - the lands are in bliss: Valar , Valier and various Maiar are at peace, and the light of the Trees mingle as the silver of Telperion wanes and Laurelin’s golden light is waxing. Behind them we see the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom. It is empty. They then turn and look in the other direction – at Middle-earth. There, chaos reigns. The plants are not growing. Of the beasts, some are dying and some look monstrous. Terrible sounds of agony are heard. The land is in tumult: volcanoes are erupting, waves are crashing on the shore, earth crumbling into the sea and cyclones pass through forests, ripping up trees – Manwë has certainly lost his influence over there. Towards the north there are bogs and swamps, and in the far north ice is mounting, and there, sometimes covered by fumes and smoke, lies the shining palace of Utumno in black obsidian and glass.

2. Yavanna is in Middle-earth, in the decay and death of a kind and to an extent that makes her more and more sad. A monstrous beast breaks out of the woods and charges in her direction. She stops it, calms it, puts it to sleep. The tragic looks of the animal breaks her Valië heart. Oromë turns up. He is also worried. She implores him not to kill the beasts unless he has to. He says he is not only hunting beasts, but searching for the Children, who might or might not have awakened.

3. Yavanna returns to the peace and harmony of Valinor and is met by Aulë, who confesses his transgression and tells her of Ilúvatar’s intervention. She is glad that Aulë also is concerned but says that he should have spoken to her about it. Also, she is troubled by the image she gets of the Dwarves and is worried that they will kill defenceless Olvar. That would perhaps not be a problem though, if they had someone, a guardian…

4. She goes to Manwë and speaks of tree guardians. He rejects the idea but she reminds him that it was in the Music. He has a vision in which Ilúvatar makes him understand that Yavanna is right and also that there will be Eagles as well, that both of these groups of guardians were foretold by the Song and are part of Ilúvatar's plan. But the Trees of Yavanna will not arrive until at the awakening of the Children, and the Eagles will come just before that, but the timing of that was not revealed. In any case, the Valar cannot rely on their aid now. On the other hand, the vision has strengthened Manwë's faith in Ilúvatar's plan and in his own path of diplomacy, although the path includes an inevitable war.

5. Aulë is relieved and thankful and speaks openly of his experience with the Dwarves and Eru's intervention. Mairon hears this and as he looks around and notices the Valar’s positive reaction to Aulë’s story, he quietly leaves.

6. Mairon arrives in Utumno. Melkor greets him. The Maia tells the Vala about Aulë, and Melkor finds Aulë's behaviour revolting but also inspiring. He thinks that Ilúvatar, by accepting Aulë’s Dwarves (are they called Dwarves immediately?), has accepted that all Valar, and especially Melkor, could create their own Children – it’s just a matter of finding the souls. He speaks to Mairon of the coming of the Children, and that he should create his own people, one that would match the so-called "Firstborn". And regarding the Children of Ilúvatar – when they eventually awaken, surely they should prosper most under Melkor’s protection. They should obey him – he is the only one who could form them into their fullest potential.

He has come to the conclusion that he shall declare himself Lord of Middle-earth and that all Valar and Maiar are welcome to his realm as long as they bow to him. He says to Mairon, in a friendly way, that the building of Angband is progressing, but slowly, he could use Mairon there, "Are you with me – or against me?" Mairon is undecided. He has doubts, and is remorseful and wondering whether he has gone too far, maybe he is on the wrong path. Does he dare to take that step? He asks for some time to think, which Melkor gladly gives him, but the Vala says that time is moving on, he can’t wait with his decision forever. Mairon goes back to Valinor.

7. The Valar, in the Ring of Dooom, discuss the fact that the Children are about to awaken and the state of Middle-earth is really bad. It is clearly perilous land. Even if Melkor should leave, there are plenty of dangers. And there is just faint hope that Melkor shall come to Valinor and repent. Mandos confirms the imminent awakening and Varda decides to collect the light of the Trees to kindle more stars. She leaves the meeting.
Mairon brings the news to the Valar that Melkor has declared himself Lord of Middle-earth and demands that all Ainur must follow his bidding when in his domains. Most of the Valar now expect Manwë to punish Melkor, imprison him or at least give him an ultimatum. But Manwë decides to send Eonwë to offer Melkor the seat next to him in Valinor. He must give up his Lordship of Middle-earth and never go back there, but he will be close to his brother, as in the beginning, as in the thought of Ilúvatar. Mairon is utterly disappointed with this and leaves Valinor, forever. (He takes a horse?)

8. We see Mairon travelling in Middle-earth. He stops to watch the sky, where a new star has been born. Then another star is being kindled – in fact, a whole new constellation (Soronúmë). A great Eagle suddenly sweeps across the sky. It cries, making Mairon uncomfortable. Another Eagle follows the next. Mairon changes his route to avoid being spotted.

9. Eonwë comes to Utumno and delivers his message to Melkor. Melkor is offended by this and decides that he has had enough. This humiliation cannot go on. He calls for Gothmog, who instantly appears in the doorway. Melkor then invites Eonwë a tour of his palace. He shows him his dungeons, and some monsters of horn and hide. A pool with tentacled beasts.

10. We see Mairon travelling in Middle-earth, but in a different setting this time. He journeys (rides?) along a mountain range, just above the tree line. It is a rather quiet part of Middle-earth. He looks like he is in deep thought. Above him, we see the Wilwarin constellation being kindled. Suddenly he looks up. He has heard a noise he does not recognize. There, over by the sea. Voices?

11. Back in Utumno, Melkor shows Eonwë a prison cell, which he tells him is where he is to spend the rest of eternity. Eonwë says that that is a mistake, he is a peace messanger, but the Vala orders his captain to arrest Eonwë, who is a spy and an aggressor. The Balrog grabs Eonwë and throws him into a wall. He picks him up and starts to throttle him with his flaming, clawed hands.
Thuringwethil shows up, saying to Melkor that there is a guest. The Vala leaves Gothmog and Eonwë. Gothmog inflicts as much pain as possible, showing what Eonwë’s eternity is going to be like.

12. Melkor’s guest is Mairon, who tells Melkor that he has news. He kneels before him and says, “My Lord, I have found the Children”. Above them, we see the Valacirca.


EPISODE 13:

1. A) Frame : Gilraen and Elrond, watching Estel during weapons training with Elladan and/or Elrohir, discuss the question of his heritage and true identity. They come to the agreement that he should be told about the Dunedain and that he is one of them. B) Elladan and Estel have a conversation about fighting and about how a fighter defends not only himself but his group.

2. Later, Gilraen (and Elrond?) reveal to Estel that he is one of the Dunedain, and she tells him something about what it means to be a Dunedain.

3. Bilbo and Gandalf return from the Battle of Five Armies. Estel asks Bilbo about the battle and the Dwarves. Bilbo only hints at the horrors of the battle, and plays down his own part. He says he did everything he could to avoid the battle, tried to make thing turns out differently. He also speaks fondly of the friends he has lost.


4. We are at Utumno. Melkor appoints Mairon lieutenant of Angband. To inaugurate him, he gives him a new name – Sauron. They go down into the dungeons, and come to the cell where Eonwë is being tortured. They watch as Eonwë dies.


5. Valinor. In the Ring of Doom, some Valar are outspoken about the fact that they think Manwë's decision to send Eonwë was wrong, and are arguing that they should throw Melkor into the Void right now. Manwë asks them to find just a little more patience, and wait for Eonwë’s return. Mandos says that Eonwë is back. A shapeless cloud appears, from which Eonwë’s voice speaks. He speaks of what happened in Utumno, emphasizing that the destroyers of the Lamps are under Melkor’s command. Manwë decides to put an end to Melkor’s domain by force. He asks Eonwë to take a new body. The new Eonwë is the Champion of Manwë, significantly more martial than before.


6. A) Utumno. Melkor realizes that when the death of Eonwë is known, armed conflict is highly probable. He escalates work on the defense. B) Mairon/Sauron takes over Angband. He instructs the Balrogs to break down the tunnels between Utumno and Angband at his command, in case of emergency or tactical necessity. Melkor might want to retreat to his fortress. (They might argue and perhaps in the end, he does it himself). (Perhaps he just comments that this would be possible, not actually giving the order.)


7. The host of the Valar arrive in Middle-earth. In the sky, Menelmacar is kindled. They are assailed by smaller elemental Maiar, but they cause small trouble. Great Eagles follow them as they go.


8. Finally at Utumno, Manwë orders Eonwë to call Melkor to surrender. He does so, but Melkor does not answer. Manwë says that they must prepare for war. This is the first war then. The War to begin all wars. He sets up a surrounding storm shield, to make escape impossible. Also, he asks the others, Aulë in particular, to contain any damage within the parameter of the storm shield. Another call to surrender is made, but Melkor does not answer. Manwë lets Tulkas, Nessa and Oromë go forward. A third call to surrender, and now Melkor attacks, causing several geysers to erupt around and among the Valar. There is a battle were the Valar are using elemental force as well as close combat. Eventually, the host of Valar is too powerful for Melkor and his hideous forces. He is taken by Tulkas. The Balrogs escape. Sauron retreats without Melkor during the battle and has the tunnel to Angband sealed (by Melkor's orders or not). Utumno is in total ruin.


9. Melkor is taken to a small cell in Mandos.


10. At Lake Cuiviénen, everything is quiet. We see figures moving out of the Wild Wood and go down to the water. We can see that they are Elves.
 
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10. At Lake Cuiviénen, everything is quiet. We see figures moving out of the Wild Wood and go down to the water. We can see that they are Elves.
I just registered just to comment on this. I think you are off here. Oromë and the audience need to first see the elves at the same time. Furthermore, I think we should only see/hear indirect signs in this season. Smoke rising from their village(s), singing, maybe distance movement.

On an similar note, if you guys are going ahead and doing the "Melkor steals the fëa of the elves to make orcs before Oromë finds them" thing (which is fine and close to canon), then it should be off screen and merely hinted at. Maybe Mairon asks where he got the fëa and Melkor says "nevermind that".

So how I envision it:
  • Before episode 12 Scene with the creation of the orcs/proto orcs ("nevermind where I got the fëa")
  • Episode 12, the second to last scene is Oromë fleeing from Melkor's beasts, maybe even Melkor himself (perhaps only hinted to be Melkor). Actually this point isn't developed very well in my mind, either way:
  • Episode 12 ends with Oromë stumbling upon the elves at Cuivienen (indirect evidence only as stated above)
  • Episode 13 can begin with Oromë hurrying back to Valinor, has the Battle under the Stars, Melkor chained
  • Episode 1 Season 2 should begin in a flashback to Oromë first meeting the elves at Cuivienen
So Oromë's encounter with the elves is pushed back to Season 2, but it still technically happens in Season 1.
 
I just registered just to comment on this. I think you are off here. Oromë and the audience need to first see the elves at the same time. Furthermore, I think we should only see/hear indirect signs in this season. Smoke rising from their village(s), singing, maybe distance movement.

On an similar note, if you guys are going ahead and doing the "Melkor steals the fëa of the elves to make orcs before Oromë finds them" thing (which is fine and close to canon), then it should be off screen and merely hinted at. Maybe Mairon asks where he got the fëa and Melkor says "nevermind that".

So how I envision it:
  • Before episode 12 Scene with the creation of the orcs/proto orcs ("nevermind where I got the fëa")
  • Episode 12, the second to last scene is Oromë fleeing from Melkor's beasts, maybe even Melkor himself (perhaps only hinted to be Melkor). Actually this point isn't developed very well in my mind, either way:
  • Episode 12 ends with Oromë stumbling upon the elves at Cuivienen (indirect evidence only as stated above)
  • Episode 13 can begin with Oromë hurrying back to Valinor, has the Battle under the Stars, Melkor chained
  • Episode 1 Season 2 should begin in a flashback to Oromë first meeting the elves at Cuivienen
So Oromë's encounter with the elves is pushed back to Season 2, but it still technically happens in Season 1.
You might be right. I'm fine with no visible elves this season. We just need to know they are there. The suggestion I made here is just meant to signal that they are awake. Thanks for the input. As I said, the outline is far from being "nailed".
 
Thinking about Manwe's vision. The only thing I can think of is having a series of images flash over the screen, some being recognisably from the Ainulindale episode and others being of eagles and ents, some of scenes of the war that are yet to happen and others that may be further off in the future. There should also be music from the Ainulindale present like a quick recap directly related to the images.
Anyone got any other ideas? This one is a bit pedestrian.
 
Oh, that is a good thought! But I think we were planning to save the Sauron name-change for much later.....like when he rules Tol Sirion after stealing it from Finrod 3 seasons from now.

I agree though that Melkor's defeat should seem final and tidy, and knowing that Gothmog and Mairon/Sauron survive and Angband is undiscovered should make the audience draw some conclusions about the passing of the torch.
I know the hosts were originally planning to hold off on the reveal of Sauron, but after the last session is seems they think that Sauron is the logical choice to take the reins while Melkor is imprisoned he is definitely making the fiinal move in his fall story arc. I think we may have to write in the revelation of Mairon's name change, or alternatively make no name change but still hand over the running of Angband to him. Personally I think that this is the biggest thing that Melkor is ever going to do for Mairon so it needs something big to show just how big a deal this is.
 
I know the hosts were originally planning to hold off on the reveal of Sauron, but after the last session is seems they think that Sauron is the logical choice to take the reins while Melkor is imprisoned he is definitely making the fiinal move in his fall story arc. I think we may have to write in the revelation of Mairon's name change, or alternatively make no name change but still hand over the running of Angband to him. Personally I think that this is the biggest thing that Melkor is ever going to do for Mairon so it needs something big to show just how big a deal this is.
I've already put that in episode 13:
"4. We are at Utumno. Melkor appoints Mairon lieutenant of Angband. To inaugurate him, he gives him a new name – Sauron. They go down into the dungeons, and come to the cell where Eonwë is being tortured. They watch as Eonwë dies."
 
Welcome, chaosrobie! The timing of the awakening of the elves and the battle are very tricky. Who finds the elves first? Is it Oromë? Or is it Melkor? (Or one of his minions?)

We seem to have decided that Melkor will get to them before Oromë, because the battle is meant to occur before Oromë finds them, and Melkor will be stealing them prior to the battle. I think Melkor beating the Valar to the punch is compatible with what Tolkien wrote.

We are planning to treat Season 2 episode 1 as flashback, in that it will begin with the Awakening of the elves, include the dark rider (Melkor) harassing them and the distant sounds of battle, and then end with Oromë meeting them.

So, having Oromë actually discover the elves on the brink of war, but not show this until season 2, is doable. I do wonder, though, if it will feel like a cheat to the audience? If we have all this buildup to the Children, but then just have characters claim to have found them but not show them? Meaning, is there a *reason* to anticipate Oromë's discovery before showing it? Won't it have more impact if we don't 'know' it's coming in Episode 1 of Season 2?

Not showing the elves is possible, but I think we wanted to see a glimpse as a teaser for Season 2. In other words, we can end everything, and then have a sweeping eagle-eye view of forests, mountains and a lake....to a sleeping figure....whose grey eyes open and then the scene quickly cuts to black, roll credits. Just a brief tease, if you will. I'm not sure that's better than what Haakon has (with them emerging from the woods to walk down to a lake shore), but the intention was always to show them at the very end of the season.


Haakon, I feel your outlines are very Mairon-heavy. He's doing a lot of to-and-fro, spy work, reporting, etc. Many of the other characters are becoming a bit passive as a result. I think we should focus on what we *want* Mairon to do, and then subtract him from the scenes where he is not needed. Personally, I think the most significant thing you have him do is discover the elves and choose to report that to Melkor rather than the Valar. That's huge, and a decisive turning point for him. Having Melkor reward him with the command of Angband after that makes sense. I realize that Mairon is very useful for the purpose of keeping everyone informed, but we can probably do that without having him report everything everyone says to each other. I know we want his reaction to Aulë's dwarves, and of course we want Melkor's as well...but... making Mairon a 'sneak' isn't helping him.

And I still think it's too early for 'Sauron' - I want to see Melkor become Morgoth before we see Mairon become Sauron. I recognize that I am currently in a minority on that. Sauron means 'The Abhorred', and I think he has to earn his street cred with some sustained orc or elf torture before he gets that name. If we're putting him in charge of Project Orc for Season 2...he'll have a chance to make everyone hate him. Then, after Morgoth's return, he can use that name.
 
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Haakon, I feel your outlines are very Mairon-heavy.
I agree. I could live with a bit less Mairon here. I think the reason it's like that is because we wanted his fall to be so gradual and understandable. But maybe we could cut something out. About that though - it kind of looks like he is around and about and very active because I have mentioned him several times. And maybe he is, but maybe it's just the way I've written it, his parts might not be that prominent in the finished script. On the other hand, this is when Mairon turns to evil, if you will, it's something we want to show, right?
The naming of Sauron... Yes. I put that in to see how it would feel. I could accept it, but I think your point about the meaning of that name swings me over. He should earn it. If he is never called Mairon again, then for a while he should perhaps be the nameless lieutenant. Or perhaps Thu?
 
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