Session 1.15

Hi Michael,
We had a discussion about this back in September last year. <a href="http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/pasage-of-time.84/">Pasage of Time</a>
I think in the end the hosts thought that the frame story can deal with that issue the best. http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/session-1-4/
You may want to listen to the beginning of that session to hear in detail. I think that we can use a range of interesting methods to depict this.
Thanks. Somehow I missed that one, it was back when most of use were 2-3 episodes behind the discussion boards. I'll try to find time to listen to it soon.
 

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Phillip, I like what your outline does in the war, emphasizing the four elements of earth, wind, water, and fire. But I would put them in this order based on power and drama: wind-earth-fire-water.
Haven't fleshed out details, but what I'm thinking is this:

Round 1: Wind - goes to the Valar. Melkor is scared, and counters with earth, building massive walls to block or deflect the wind.
Round 2: Earth - a draw. The Valar are able to manipulate Melkor's walls against him. Melkor senses the tables may be turning.
Round 3: Fire - goes to Melkor. Many on the Valar side are badly injured by some new form of fire. The Valar are on the brink of losing it.
Round 4: Water - goes to the Valar. The sea overwhelms the battle, healing the injured Valar and devastating Utomno. Melkor's fires are quenched.
At the end of round 4 Tulkas is able to subdue Melkor due to so much of his power going out in the Fire round, only to be bested by Ulmo's waters.

rationale:
1. It's Manwe's word that starts the war officially so it seems logical to have his winds go first.
2. It emphasizes and fleshes-out Melkor's eternal hatred of the sea.
3. The crashing of the waves will be what causes much of the land to sink, so it may as well be near the end of the battle.
Michael, at first when you mentioned the waves causing the land to sink I thought you were getting confused with the War of Wrath where Beleriand sinks. Then I remembered the hosts discussions very early in the Season talking about the War to Begin all Wars being a huge cataclysm and being the main reason why Manwe does not want to go to war, because of the ruin it will bring to Middle Earth. I think we are all generally talking in too small a scale. This war needs to be bigger than the War of Wrath, this is the War of Powers. I think you are right in that a huge part of Middle Earth needs to sink under the ocean. Our descriptions of the war have been confined to the region around Uttumno or assailing a fortress, but we need to think much bigger. In keeping with Tolkien trying to fit his world into the real world the region where Uttumno once stood in the very north of the world could become the Arctic Sea. Also what better way to portray Uttumno as being gone forever than to encase it in an icecap (although with global warming we may see it being revealed again).
 
Exactly.
PS says of this particular war that "all that region was much broken." The earth shook and groaned, the waters were moved, etc....."In that time the shape of Middle-earth was changed, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep; and it broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward."
So when I say "wind," I mean continent-sized typhoon. This brings about the swift early victory for the Valar that Tolkien cites. For "earth" and "build walls," I mean whole mountain ranges. (Tolkien himself says Dorthonion and the mountains around Hithlum were raised at this time.) "Fire" means faults opening and great rivers and fountains of flame. (Gondolin appears to be the caldera of a massive extinct volcano). When I say water, I mean the entire coast is changed, cut into great bays and gulfs. (The Helcaraxe is formed, and the Bay of Balar was created at this time, and possibly the Sirion.) This is truly a continent-shifting event.
 
At this point, Aulë reveals his plan for taking down the gates/walls of Utumno. I don't know if he invents a battering ram or a catapult or just makes spikes of rock grow up and crush the structure, but....something.
I'm not sure how much we want the War to begin all wars to resemble the later magical duels. Those battles are very verbal/musical (e.g. Finrod Felagund v. Sauron in the Lay of Leithian or when Gandalf the white said `your staff is broken` and the staff broke (and it was good)). Do we want to make the War to Begin All Wars to be different from these later conflicts and be more primal, elemental, and nonverbal or should it focus on establishing the importance of words/music? (More likely somewhere in the middle)

I think that it's a good idea for Aulë to be the one that brings down the walls of Utumno. While Aulë might make siege machines to destroy the walls, I was thinking that Melkor would be expecting this kind of attack. He has built Utumno up with high walls that are impervious to external attack. But, Melkor's has been digging too many tunnels. His designs are so short sighted that the very Earth his city is built on has been permanently damaged. The evil he is working beneath his beautiful city is so great that Arda in some sense doesn't *want* to hold it up anymore.

Eventually, Aulë sees this and says something like "Melkor, your grandeur is built on suffering. Utumno, your foundations crumble beneath your mighty walls. Arda, swallow up this abomination. ". This effectively commands the Earth to give way and the Walls of Utumno tumble into the abyss. This also gives us an opportunity to start showing an example of how evil eventually brings about its own destruction.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Those battles are very verbal/musical (e.g. Finrod Felagund v. Sauron in the Lay of Leithian or when Gandalf the white said `your staff is broken` and the staff broke (and it was good)). Do we want to make the War to Begin All Wars to be different from these later conflicts and be more primal, elemental, and nonverbal or should it focus on establishing the importance of words/music? (More likely somewhere in the middle)
Great, I was thinking about that and then I forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me. I think we must have some verbal/musical/song ingredient in the elemental battle.
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
Good heavens, I don't know if I even have time to read everything in here before Friday.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I won't be posting new outlines before friday, but instead just edit my last draft (post #72). That will make some of the comments afterwards slightly harder to understand, but makes the total amount of reading more easy to cover.
 
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Tim_Widman

Member
Exactly.
PS says of this particular war that "all that region was much broken." The earth shook and groaned, the waters were moved, etc....."In that time the shape of Middle-earth was changed, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep; and it broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward."
So when I say "wind," I mean continent-sized typhoon. This brings about the swift early victory for the Valar that Tolkien cites. For "earth" and "build walls," I mean whole mountain ranges. (Tolkien himself says Dorthonion and the mountains around Hithlum were raised at this time.) "Fire" means faults opening and great rivers and fountains of flame. (Gondolin appears to be the caldera of a massive extinct volcano). When I say water, I mean the entire coast is changed, cut into great bays and gulfs. (The Helcaraxe is formed, and the Bay of Balar was created at this time, and possibly the Sirion.) This is truly a continent-shifting event.
I think this should really be seen as the major effect of the War to begin all Wars. It should also be seen as the implicit danger in War of the Powers; not only is there destruction caused by assaults in general, but the compounded destruction caused both by the mixing of those powers as well as the counters of Melkor which make the situation worse.

In the PS, in general the form of Arda has remained largely the same since the fall of the Lamps. The symmetry and 'perfection' of the land masses, though broken, are not completely lost. With this war, the after-effect is Beleriand and its coastline. The Atlas of ME does a pretty good job showing the difference.

With that being said, a significant amount of land simply sinks below the seas or is thrown up in new mountain ranges. It should be catastrophic enough to essentially stall any future 'terra-forming' or direct meddling by the Valar, as they'll see how tremendously disruptive it is. I could see one of the last scenes in this season being where the Valar stand looking out over the apparent ruin of ME, and vowing never to do the same again. (Granted the War of Wrath is coming...but in that case, they seem to have kept the effects at least partially contained.) It also would have a huge detrimental effect on any Valar involvement in future conflicts ... hence the long period of inaction leaving the Noldor to their own devices until the appearance of Earendil.
 
I'm not sure how much we want the War to begin all wars to resemble the later magical duels. Those battles are very verbal/musical (e.g. Finrod Felagund v. Sauron in the Lay of Leithian or when Gandalf the white said `your staff is broken` and the staff broke (and it was good)). Do we want to make the War to Begin All Wars to be different from these later conflicts and be more primal, elemental, and nonverbal or should it focus on establishing the importance of words/music? (More likely somewhere in the middle)

I think that it's a good idea for Aulë to be the one that brings down the walls of Utumno. While Aulë might make siege machines to destroy the walls, I was thinking that Melkor would be expecting this kind of attack. He has built Utumno up with high walls that are impervious to external attack. But, Melkor's has been digging too many tunnels. His designs are so short sighted that the very Earth his city is built on has been permanently damaged. The evil he is working beneath his beautiful city is so great that Arda in some sense doesn't *want* to hold it up anymore.

Eventually, Aulë sees this and says something like "Melkor, your grandeur is built on suffering. Utumno, your foundations crumble beneath your mighty walls. Arda, swallow up this abomination. ". This effectively commands the Earth to give way and the Walls of Utumno tumble into the abyss. This also gives us an opportunity to start showing an example of how evil eventually brings about its own destruction.
Agree. This should be neither a musical/magical battle, nor should it be a strictly tactical affair. There's plenty of room for those later. I would prefer that this particular war be focused on how the Ainur are essentially different from the Children. There can be aspects of music (the Ainulindale would call for that after all) and tactics (like, how do I undermine or outflank this new mountain range that just grew in my way). But the focus of this battle should be fundamentally elemental.
 
I would be okay with the Ents and the Eagles being surprise additions to the forces of the Valar in this War. I mean, Eagles are more appropriate, but we could maybe slip the ents in too. It would be unexpected, but would be a sign that the Children are awake (thus lending to the urgency and danger of the War) as well as give us some soldiers who can die :eek:
I've thought about this for a while. I would love to see Ents in battle. But I think I've decided for me, this is the wrong time for them, for a couple of reasons.
First, the Ents were first awoken by the Elves, and learned the idea of speech from them. I'd like to see this unfold in season 2's "meanwhile, back in Middle Earth" segments. Second, they are supposed to have lived mostly in Eriador, and also are known to have been in Ossiriand, but how wide of a range would they really have at this time? Finally, I just don't see any outcome for them except utter tragedy in this war. I'd like to see them win some first :)
The Eagles I could see being actually useful. I'm wondering if we can tie them in with the stars somehow, although that might be a stretch.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I've thought about this for a while. I would love to see Ents in battle. But I think I've decided for me, this is the wrong time for them, for a couple of reasons.
First, the Ents were first awoken by the Elves, and learned the idea of speech from them. I'd like to see this unfold in season 2's "meanwhile, back in Middle Earth" segments. Second, they are supposed to have lived mostly in Eriador, and also are known to have been in Ossiriand, but how wide of a range would they really have at this time? Finally, I just don't see any outcome for them except utter tragedy in this war. I'd like to see them win some first :)
The Eagles I could see being actually useful. I'm wondering if we can tie them in with the stars somehow, although that might be a stretch.
I agree completely about the Ents.

Regarding the Eagles, I have actually tried to tie them in with the Eagles in my outline. I don't know, it's hard. When you get down to actual sequences of scenes, it isn't easy to fit everything in...
 

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
I've thought about this for a while. I would love to see Ents in battle. But I think I've decided for me, this is the wrong time for them, for a couple of reasons.
First, the Ents were first awoken by the Elves, and learned the idea of speech from them. I'd like to see this unfold in season 2's "meanwhile, back in Middle Earth" segments. Second, they are supposed to have lived mostly in Eriador, and also are known to have been in Ossiriand, but how wide of a range would they really have at this time? Finally, I just don't see any outcome for them except utter tragedy in this war. I'd like to see them win some first :)
The Eagles I could see being actually useful. I'm wondering if we can tie them in with the stars somehow, although that might be a stretch.
I have actually been thinking about the eagles being tied in to the stars and maybe there are others. Haakon informed us that Soronume means Eagle of the west which today is Aquila the Eagle with the bright star Altair. The lighting of this constellation could herald the entry of the eagles. I'm sure there can be other tie ins. I'll have to check my star atlas. :D
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
There are already two plot outlines in this thread, so I'm just going to do a key points bullet list and leave it at that.

Build up to War (Episode 12) - The Breath Before the Storm
  • Yavanna and Manwë discuss the Ents and Eagles, and Manwë has a vision into the mind of Ilúvatar.
  • Námo announces that the awakening of the Children will happen soon, speaking at Manwë's request after his vision.
  • Ulmo, Tulkas and Oromë are in favor of dealing with Melkor forcefully and soon. Irmo, Nienna and Aulë are in favor of continued diplomacy, with the assumption that the Valar will be able to protect the Children.
  • Manwë sends Eonwë to Utumno in a final bid for peace with Melkor.
  • Varda begins to kindle the new Constellations; privately, she informs Manwë that war is inevitable.
  • Melkor imprisons the messenger of the Valar and declares himself High King of all Arda.
Frame: Gilraen suggests to Elrond that it is time to tell Estel of his true heritage, and Elrond counsels waiting until the boy is older. [If the Death of Arathorn has not already come up in the Frame, there is a flashback to it now, but it should happen earlier and just be referenced again here.] It is revealed to the audience that it was Elrond who chose the name Estel and decided that the name Aragorn must be concealed. [The audience already knows that Estel is Aragorn, I think....]


War! (Episode 13) - The War of the Powers

  • Mairon reveals to Melkor the location of the Children; Melkor appoints him lieutenant of Angband
  • Eonwë makes an escape attempt, and is 'killed' by Gothmog, fleeing back to Valinor disembodied.
  • Eonwë arrives at the Ring of Doom and reports Melkor's answer to Manwë's offer. He also reports that the Children have awakened and that Melkor knows where they are.
  • The Valar unanimously decide to use force to stop Melkor from declaring kingship over the Children. While some were shocked by Melkor's actions towards Eonwë, Manwë was merely saddened.
  • The Valar prepare for the undertaking of stopping Melkor. Varda kindles the last of the new Constellations.
  • Meanwhile, Melkor also prepares for War. His bestiary is growing...and he takes a further step into Necromancy so that Thuringwethil now takes the form of the giant bat.
  • The Valar strike first. Melkor is prepared, and rebuffs them with great chaos. They regroup and relentlessly pursue him, hemming him in narrower and narrower until he is forced to retreat to Utumno.
  • The battles are very elemental, sweeping scope, world-destroying the way the formation of Almaren was world-building. No casualties, but the Valar are quite dismayed by all the destruction. The dog dies (ie, any animals on the side of the Valar do suffer casualties - so horses, hounds, eagles....)
  • Sauron and the Balrogs retreat to Angband, and no one can find them. Melkor refuses to believe that Utumno will fall, and stays there...but of course it does fall, and he is taken by Tulkas. He is last seen in chains.
  • Teaser: Brief glimpse of the elves at Cuivienen, though we hear their voices first.
Frame: Gilraen has a private conversation with Estel in which she reveals that he is of the people of the Dunedain, the Men of the West, and that he is part of a legacy of people who have fought to defend the free peoples of Middle Earth. [She does not say 'I gave Hope to the Dunedain...'] She respects Elrond's advice and stops short of telling him who he truly is - she does not reveal that he is the only son of the last Chieftain. Estel is thrilled to find out that he has a history of his own, and so he shares this 'news' with the returning Bilbo, who in turn shares his news of the Battle of Five Armies which he tried but failed to stop. Brief cameo by Gandalf, but he and Estel do not meet [Aragorn meets Gandalf when he is 25, just before he undertakes his journeys as Thorongil.]
 
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Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
There are already two plot outlines in this thread, so I'm just going to do a key points bullet list and leave it at that.

Build up to War (Episode 12) - The Breath Before the Storm
  • Yavanna and Manwë discuss the Ents and Eagles, and Manwë has a vision into the mind of Ilúvatar.
  • Námo announces that the awakening of the Children will happen soon.
  • Ulmo, Tulkas and Oromë are in favor of dealing with Melkor forcefully and soon. Irmo, Nienna and Aulë are in favor of continued diplomacy, with the assumption that the Valar will be able to protect the Children.
  • Manwë sends Eonwë to Utumno in a final bid for peace with Melkor.
  • Varda begins to kindle the new Constellations; privately, she informs Manwë that war is inevitable.
  • Melkor imprisons the messenger of the Valar and declares himself High King of all Arda.
Frame: Gilraen suggests to Elrond that it is time to tell Estel of his true heritage, and Elrond counsels waiting until the boy is older. [If the Death of Arathorn has not already come up in the Frame, there is a flashback to it now, but it should happen earlier and just be referenced again here.] It is revealed to the audience that it was Elrond who chose the name Estel and decided that the name Aragorn must be concealed. [The audience already knows that Estel is Aragorn, I think....]


War! (Episode 13) - The War of the Powers

  • Mairon reveals to Melkor the location of the Children; Melkor appoints him lieutenant of Angband
  • Eonwë makes an escape attempt, and is 'killed' by Gothmog, fleeing back to Valinor disembodied.
  • Eonwë arrives at the Ring of Doom and reports Melkor's answer to Manwë's offer. He also reports that the Children have awakened and that Melkor knows where they are.
  • The Valar unanimously decide to use force to stop Melkor from declaring kingship over the Children. While some were shocked by Melkor's actions towards Eonwë, Manwë was merely saddened.
  • The Valar prepare for the undertaking of stopping Melkor. Varda kindles the last of the new Constellations.
  • Meanwhile, Melkor also prepares for War. His bestiary is growing...and he takes a further step into Necromancy so that Thuringwethil now takes the form of the giant bat.
  • The Valar strike first. Melkor is prepared, and rebuffs them with great chaos. They regroup and relentlessly pursue him, hemming him in narrower and narrower until he is forced to retreat to Utumno.
  • The battles are very elemental, sweeping scope, world-destroying the way the formation of Almaren was world-building. No casualties, but the Valar are quite dismayed by all the destruction. The dog dies (ie, any animals on the side of the Valar do suffer casualties - so horses, hounds, eagles....)
  • Sauron and the Balrogs retreat to Angband, and no one can find them. Melkor refuses to believe that Utumno will fall, and stays there...but of course it does fall, and he is taken by Tulkas. He is last seen in chains.
  • Teaser: Brief glimpse of the elves at Cuivienen, though we hear their voices first.
Frame: Gilraen has a private conversation with Estel in which she reveals that he is of the people of the Dunedain, the Men of the West, and that he is part of a legacy of people who have fought to defend the free peoples of Middle Earth. [She does not say 'I gave Hope to the Dunedain...'] She respects Elrond's advice and stops short of telling him who he truly is - she does not reveal that he is the only son of the last Chieftain. Estel is thrilled to find out that he has a history of his own, and so he shares this 'news' with the returning Bilbo, who in turn shares his news of the Battle of Five Armies which he tried but failed to stop. Brief cameo by Gandalf, but he and Estel do not meet [Aragorn meets Gandalf when he is 25, just before he undertakes his journeys as Thorongil.]
This interaction between Bilbo and Estel with the revelation the Estel is one of the Dunedain is a perfect place for Bilbo to give him his nickname of "Dunadan".
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Looking forward to the podcast. I think that our different outlines and ideas probably will give the execs enough material for at least one session. ;) Would have liked to join live but that's not possible.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
As for the frame, the hosts have accepted the 'Bilbo names Estel Dunadan' and 'Bilbo's experience with failing to prevent the Battle of Five Armies mirrors Manwë's failure to stop the War of the Powers' plot points. There wasn't much time to discuss the Frame, though, so no further thoughts on Gilraen and Elrond, really.

Also, Corey Olsen actually took notes during the podcast to try to keep all the ideas straight. Mairon was given a lot to do, but most of his stuff was not definitely put into the timeline, which focused more on the actions of the Valar. So, probably will still take some more work to sort out. The death of Eonwë was chosen as the breaking point between episodes 12 and 13. The scenes with Eonwë were being compared to so many different things - he's gonna prefigure EVERYTHING ;).
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Sounds great! Are we on schedule or is there going to be another session on the finale?
 

winrobee

New Member
Remmirath = the Netted Stars, and is commonly identified as the Pleiades. I think this can be included in this 'phase 2' star-making, though not mentioned on the list. Wilwarin = Butterfly, and I agree is likely meant to be Cassiopeia.
Planets in Quenya include: Eärendil "Venus", Carnil "Mars", and Alcarinquë "Jupiter" and the elves were aware that these 'wandering stars' were different from the others. Obviously no Morning Star yet!

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/vocab.htm

Also, the Sickle of the Valar is Ursa Major, not Ursa Minor, to the best of my knowledge:
Valacirca noun "Sickle of the Gods", a name of the Great Bear (Big Dipper) constellation (SA:val-, MR:388, KIRIK, OT/OTOS/OTOK)

Telumendil
is trickier. My first assumption would be that this is meant to be Telumehtar, another name for Orion. Otherwise, the name seems to mean 'sky-canopy' which would not be a star or constellation.

Telimbectar ("k") noun,name of constellation:"Orion", lit. "Swordsman of Heaven". Also Telimectar ("k"). (LT1:268; in Tolkien's later Quenya Telumehtar, q.v. The combination ct is not found in LotR-style Quenya.)

telimbo noun "canopy, sky" (LT1:268)
telluma noun "dome, copula", especially the "Dome of Varda" over Valinor, but also applied to the domes of the mansion of Manwë and Varda upon Taniquetil. Adopted from Valarin delgūmāunder the influence of pure Quenya telumë (WJ:399, 411). Pl. tellumar is attested (Nam, RGEO:66).

But Encyclopedia of Arda has this to offer:



Not that Anarríma is any better. Anarríma name of a constellation: *"Sun-border"??? (Silm; cf. ríma) Ríma means "edge, hem, border"

Tolkien Gateway is hesitant to identify it:




For anyone interested, there is this 2003 essay on the topic:
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.ips-planetarium.org/resource/resmgr/pdf-articles/elvish.pdf
image.jpg

The names of the planets are given in HoME. Apparently, Uranus and Neptune were visible to elvish eyes!
 
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